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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
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Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME???
    #1857740 - 08/28/03 03:37 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)


Who is the worst president in US history:
George W. Bush
Bill Clinton
George Bush (Sr)
Ronald Reagan
Jimmy Carter
Gerald Ford
Richard Nixon
Lyndon Johnson
John F. Kennedy
Dwight Eisenhower
Harry Truman
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Herbert Hoover
Calvin Coolidge
Warren Harding
Woodrow Wilson
William Taft
Theodore Roosevelt
Other




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 06:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1857907 - 08/28/03 04:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Lincoln. In 1862 he signed an income tax law and gave us the IRS.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1857968 - 08/28/03 05:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ahhh, you're just mad he helped free the slaves.  :wink:   


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1857985 - 08/28/03 05:52 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Jimmy Carter, he was a pussy in office and out of office. His problem was that he was NOT a leader but a pacifier.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1858012 - 08/28/03 06:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think you meant warmonger not leader.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858025 - 08/28/03 06:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Ahhh, you're just mad he helped free the slaves.  :wink:   


No sorry. There should have never been slaves.

There also should never have been an income tax. That was the Fed's first big power grab and it opened the door to so many things that we all hate.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1858027 - 08/28/03 06:17 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Jimmy Carter, he was a pussy in office and out of office. His problem was that he was NOT a leader but a pacifier.


Very astute.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1858034 - 08/28/03 06:20 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I had to vote for Bush snr, on the basis of his voice and face...


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1858053 - 08/28/03 06:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Innvertigo said:
Jimmy Carter, he was a pussy in office and out of office.  His problem was that he was NOT a leader but a pacifier.

luvdemshrooms said:
Very astute.


A pacifier is one who makes peace, right?  So if a pacifier is not a leader ( :wtf:), I guess you must think Bush is a true leader!  :confused:
Or am I misunderstanding what you meant??? 

Edit:  I think Gazzbut might have explained it, perhaps you meant "warmonger", not "leader".


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Edited by Cornholio (08/28/03 06:38 AM)


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858084 - 08/28/03 06:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

A pacifier isn't neccessary someone who makes peace, sometimes they can be more like appeasers. A leader is someone who can stand strong in the face of adversity and stand up for what they believe is right.

And strangely enough, Bush does meet these criteria, he faced the September 11th tragedy (I dont mean on the day but as a whole) and he is fighting for a cause he believes to be right.


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858089 - 08/28/03 06:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I think you meant warmonger not leader.




no i meant pacifier, learn to read.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858102 - 08/28/03 06:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

A pacifier is one who makes peace, right?




no, a pacifier is someone who tries to make everyone happy without actually making any tough decision on his own. Carter was a nice guy but was NO leader.

Quote:

I guess you must think Bush is a true leader!




don't put words in my mouth (i know it's tough).

Quote:

Or am I misunderstanding what you meant???




yes you did.

Quote:

I think Gazzbut might have explained it, perhaps you meant "warmonger", not "leader".




either way you would be mistaken



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1858127 - 08/28/03 07:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

I think you meant warmonger not leader.




no i meant pacifier, learn to read.



If it's any consolation.... I knew what you meant and Carter was indeed that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1858152 - 08/28/03 07:17 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

it really wouldn't matter what i said, the responses would have been the same. To say that carter was effective in any part of his presidency would be a joke. Compare his leadership ability with ANY of those listed above and the result would be the same. I would change my vote if the poll was switched to "who is the most dangerous to our rights", but even then he would be near the bottom.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1858202 - 08/28/03 07:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

no i meant pacifier, learn to read. 




Well reading your posts for a while now has taught me to read between the lines to get at what you REALLY mean!! :grin: 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858211 - 08/28/03 07:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

no i meant pacifier, learn to read. 




Well reading your posts for a while now has taught me to read between the lines to get at what you REALLY mean!! :grin: 



Then you've not learned the true lesson which would be that he says what he means the first time, even if he then has to rephrase it several times for the slower among us.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1858213 - 08/28/03 07:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Gee thanks Luvvie!


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1858227 - 08/28/03 08:04 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Gee thanks Luvvie! 



Think nothing of it Gazzie!      :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1858233 - 08/28/03 08:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

I think you meant warmonger not leader. 




no i meant pacifier, learn to read. 


Actually, he wasn't disputing the word "pacifier", but the word "leader".  Learn to read!  :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858256 - 08/28/03 08:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I hate polls like these because they are too lopsided. A good poll would include ALL the presidents and to be of value should only be taken by those familliar with all the presidents down to the size of their underwear.

Unfortunately neither the poll nor this forum meets those criteria.

If I had to pick our worst president out of my limited knowledge (read "my ass) I would agree with Luv.

Interestingly enough some of the same insults in the way of epithets used to characterize Lincoln are used to characterize our current president.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858358 - 08/28/03 09:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Since those who pacify cannot be a effective leader (or one of substance), i'll stick to what i originally wrote. Feel free to defend Carter, you may be the only one talking.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858507 - 08/28/03 10:58 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Those results look pretty comprehensive.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1858520 - 08/28/03 11:05 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Mr_Mushrooms explained it all


--------------------
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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: ]
    #1858532 - 08/28/03 11:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I hate polls like these because they are too lopsided. A good poll would include ALL the presidents and to be of value should only be taken by those familliar with all the presidents down to the size of their underwear.





I think all the presidents are included, hence the "other" choice. I agree that it's not complete because of the times that these presidents served. ie: Slaves, civil rights, nukes, gay rights etc...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858548 - 08/28/03 11:19 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I voted for our current president, but now that I think about it, Andrew Jackson was pretty bad too.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1858646 - 08/28/03 11:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I would say Reagan is definitely in the top 3 worst presidents of all time...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Rono]
    #1860065 - 08/28/03 06:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I can't choose between Reagan,Nixon,and Bush Jr. It's just too hard.

Fuck it. I'll go with Nixon because he officially started the War On Drugs.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1860305 - 08/28/03 08:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Since those who pacify cannot be a effective leader (or one of substance), i'll stick to what i originally wrote.


See that's exactly why Gazz and I challenged your statement. You clearly implied this to be the case.

I'd argue that peacemakers are the greatest leaders, but maybe that's a difference in liberal and conservative thought.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: ]
    #1860314 - 08/28/03 08:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
A good poll would include ALL the presidents and to be of value should only be taken by those familliar with all the presidents down to the size of their underwear.

Unfortunately neither the poll nor this forum meets those criteria.


Ah shucks, and here I was getting ready to sell a story with these results to the Associated Press.  :wink: 


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Offlinehubertd8
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1861588 - 08/29/03 02:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

why is Bill so low? (poll wise)
Cruise Missile Strikes on Afghanistan and Sudan
NATO bombings Kosovo and Serbia
US bombs Chinese embassy in Belgrade
etc.
In terms of foreign policy i'd say he(his gov't) possibly worse then Bush jr. But i guess people can't really remember much bout him other then the sex scandle. These polls are horrible, people will only select either the most familiar or recent options.


--------------------
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

Bertrand Russell


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: hubertd8]
    #1861603 - 08/29/03 02:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

There was no Patriot Act under Clinton, and the entire world didn't hate us back then like they do now.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1861639 - 08/29/03 03:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

In defense of Lincoln, war has always entailed a heightening of socialization. There's never been any other way to fund a war than the collective.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: hubertd8]
    #1861705 - 08/29/03 03:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hubertd8 said:
These polls are horrible, people will only select either the most familiar or recent options. 


I agree with that.  But wouldn't you say Clinton, Bush, and Reagan are all familiar and recent options?

What is unusual about George W. is not the lack of support for him; he enjoys the usual support from fellow party members that most presidents enjoy.  What is unusual is the amazing level of hatred against him from people outside his party.  This may be the most divided the country has ever been since the Civil War.  Most presidents you dislike because of their tax policy, their stand on abortion, or the fact they had a personal scandal.  But Bush has gone far beyond these "normal" things.  He is destroying our freedoms, ignoring our constitution, killing people around the globe, making the US the world's most hated country, and not doing a damn thing in the meantime to make the American people better off (except the rich, of course, who have gotten a lot out of Bush).

I was just curious to see if people did indeed hate Bush a lot more than "normal".  And it seems they do...  :frown: 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1861789 - 08/29/03 05:06 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I was just curious to see if people did indeed hate Bush a lot more than "normal".



Actually, people on this site (a drug site) hate him more than normal. I've pointed out to you before that this site does not give an accurate picture on this type of poll.

I believe it wouldn't matter who the president was, the majority here would like him if he was a dem, and will hate any repub.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1861832 - 08/29/03 05:56 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You clearly implied this to be the case.




I implied nothing, you're just unhappy that many find pacifism to be of a weak attribute. You libbies like to read into everything without thinking.

Thinking really works, try it.

Quote:

I'd argue that peacemakers are the greatest leaders, but maybe that's a difference in liberal and conservative thought




to imply that liberals want peace and cons want war is a pretty lame to say the least, weren't you the one that said that you don't stereo type?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1861985 - 08/29/03 08:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thinking really works, try it.



There's a song that goes...

To dream the impossible dream,
to fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
to run where the brave dare not go........

Can you imagine????? A thinking libbie?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862021 - 08/29/03 08:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Innvertigo said:
"I implied nothing, you're just unhappy that many find pacifism to be of a weak attribute.  You libbies like to read into everything without thinking.  Thinking really works, try it."

A pacifist is "one who believes that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully."  You said "...those who pacify cannot be a effective leader (or one of substance)...."  Therefore, to be a good leader, you must not be a pacifist.  One who is not a pacifist is a warmonger (you're either for peace, or you're for war - what other option is there?)  Therefore, Gazz and I suggested you use the term "warmonger" rather than "leader".

As far as the "try thinking" comment goes, now you're getting into ad hominen attacks, which LDS has shown his approval for in his last post...  :mad2:  (have another red face lds, I know how much you luv 'em  :wink:)


Cornholio said:
I'd argue that peacemakers are the greatest leaders, but maybe that's a difference in liberal and conservative thought."

Innvertigo said:
"to imply that liberals want peace and cons want war is a pretty lame to say the least, weren't you the one that said that you don't stereo type?"


To repeat, you said "...those who pacify cannot be a effective leader (or one of substance)...."  If you're against peace, then you must be for war.  What other option is there? 

And I agree, we shouldn't stereotype.  Wait a minute, in the very same post you said "You libbies like to read into everything without thinking."  Talk about being hypocritical!  :wink:   


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862026 - 08/29/03 08:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Try #3, it'll do you good.

Or maybe  :bong:

Or 

:razz:


Main Entry: 1hu?mor
Pronunciation: 'hy?-m&r, 'y?-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English humour, from Middle French humeur, from Medieval Latin & Latin; Medieval Latin humor, from Latin humor, umor moisture; akin to Old Norse vokr damp, Latin humEre to be moist, and perhaps to Greek hygros wet
Date: 14th century
1 a : a normal functioning bodily semifluid or fluid (as the blood or lymph) b : a secretion (as a hormone) that is an excitant of activity
2 a in medieval physiology : a fluid or juice of an animal or plant; specifically : one of the four fluids entering into the constitution of the body and determining by their relative proportions a person's health and temperament b : characteristic or habitual disposition or bent : TEMPERAMENT c : an often temporary state of mind imposed especially by circumstances d : a sudden, unpredictable, or unreasoning inclination : WHIM
3 a : that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous b : the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous c : something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862041 - 08/29/03 08:54 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

This link is for inny.  He wanted an example.  :wink: 


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (08/29/03 08:56 AM)


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862071 - 08/29/03 09:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

By the way fellas, I don't have a very good sense of humor in terms of my writing style.  I try to throw in a few  :wink:'s to show that I'm just having fun, so I hope I don't come across as being too much of a jerk.  :smirk: 


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862086 - 08/29/03 09:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

a little sensitive i see.

Quote:

A pacifist is "one who believes that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully." 




i never even mentioned war.  He was a pacifist in the way he always went the way of least resistance, domestic agenda, foreign. agenda etc.  Why are you making more aboot this then there is?  Move on.

Quote:

As far as the "try thinking" comment goes, now you're getting into ad hominen attacks




I've never denied using that style.  Sometimes someone has to just be honest in the way some people are.  I don't deny it nor am i ashamed.  As the old saying goes: "if the shoe fits....." you know the rest.

Quote:

If you're against peace, then you must be for war




That aboot sums it up in the la la libbie land.  Are you being sarcastic or do you actually believe this?  who's against peace?

Quote:

And I agree, we shouldn't stereotype. Wait a minute, in the very same post you said "You libbies like to read into everything without thinking." Talk about being hypocritical! 




I'd only be a hypocrite if "I" was the one who whined aboot people stereotyping.  If i recall it was you who did this.  I don't deny getting personal nor do i backtrack from my statement that libbies read into everything, mind you i'm talking aboot libbies.  I use Aristotelean law "a" is "a", a rose is a rose. You should try this, you're life would be easier and less conflicting. :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862087 - 08/29/03 09:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I try to throw in a few 's to show that I'm just having fun, so I hope I don't come across as being too much of a jerk.


Soory man, but the chance for you to not appear a jerk is long past!


:lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862136 - 08/29/03 09:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
i never even mentioned war.  He was a pacifist in the way he always went the way of least resistance, domestic agenda, foreign. agenda etc.  Why are you making more aboot this then there is?  Move on.


Gotcha.  Sorry, I was using the dictionary.com definition of pacifist.  You were using another definition.  That makes all the difference in the world, and explains the confusion.

Quote:

Sometimes someone has to just be honest in the way some people are.  I don't deny it nor am i ashamed.  As the old saying goes: "if the shoe fits....." you know the rest.


Ok, fair enough.  You're clearly the non-thinker here (personally, I don't think ad-hominen attacks are very effective, but I'll roll with it if you do).  :rolleyes:
Quote:

That aboot sums it up in the la la libbie land.  Are you being sarcastic or do you actually believe this?  who's against peace?


Well, I think we've cleared that up.  Anyone who is not a pacifist by the dictionary.com definition is against peace.
Quote:

I'd only be a hypocrite if "I" was the one who whined aboot people stereotyping.  If i recall it was you who did this.


I was attempting to describe the difference between a liberal and conservative.  By your standards, this would be impossible without stereotyping.  Even if I attempted to define the difference, that would be stereotyping too, wouldn't it?  :smirk:
Quote:

I don't deny getting personal nor do i backtrack from my statement that libbies read into everything, mind you i'm talking aboot libbies.  I use Aristotelean law "a" is "a", a rose is a rose. You should try this, you're life would be easier and less conflicting. :smirk: 


Again, based on the dictionary definition of pacifist, my read was correct.  I see that you had a different definition in mind, so I apologize.  :smirk:   


--------------------


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OfflineCornholio
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Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862139 - 08/29/03 09:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862162 - 08/29/03 09:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Cornholio writes:

Anyone who is not a pacifist by the dictionary.com definition is against peace.

Incorrect. One can be in favor of peace (as opposed to being "against peace") yet still not be a "pacifist".

Pacifists choose their stance based on how they think the world should be, not on how it is. As with all entities who misperceive reality, their continued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862191 - 08/29/03 09:55 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This link is for inny. He wanted an example.




what was this supposed to prove?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862196 - 08/29/03 09:56 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Were you ever a carpenter pinky? Because you sure hit that nail right on the head. Bravo.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862293 - 08/29/03 10:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gotcha. Sorry, I was using the dictionary.com definition of pacifist. You were using another definition. That makes all the difference in the world, and explains the confusion.




then why did LDS get it and you didn't? Carter wasn't involved in a war period (maybe the aftermat of Vietnam but nothing big. Carter basically shut down the government over the hostages in Iran. That is NOT a good example of a leader. They had him by the balls.

Quote:

Ok, fair enough. You're clearly the non-thinker here




What are you talking aboot? you're the one making up topics to argue aboot. I said i didn't like Carter because he pacified every aspect of his presidency, if you disagree that's fine, just tell me where i'm mistaken. If not the there really isn't much to discuss. If you'd like to send me a private message we can discuss my non-ability to think. Or maybe another thread is in order?

Quote:

By your standards, this would be impossible without stereotyping.




I was showing an example of you trying to be self-rightous when you said that people who do this tend to be non-thinkers, if you want to do it then fine, just don't take the high road when it's convinient.

Quote:

Again, based on the dictionary definition of pacifist, my read was correct.




my context differed, but my statement was true and within the realm of reality.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCornholio
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Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862328 - 08/29/03 11:01 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
One can be in favor of peace (as opposed to being "against peace") yet still not be a "pacifist".

Pacifists choose their stance based on how they think the world should be, not on how it is. As with all entities who misperceive reality, their continued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not.


You seem to imply that if a pacifist were President and his country were attacked, he would roll over and not do anything ("their coninued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not (misperceive reality)"). I disagree. While Carter was a Pacifist, I don't think he would have avoided war under any circumstance.

Before arguing about this I think we need to clarify our definitions because this may all come down to a semantics argument that we may not even disagree on once the definitions are clarified. First of all, I am using the definition of pacifism which specifically has to do with one's position on war (a definition which caused all the confusion in the first place).

The way I see it, people's views on war fall on a spectrum, from extreme pacifist to extreme warmonger. I would guess that their views fall on a bell shaped curve in between each extreme. I would consider those on the one side of the curve pacifists, and those on the other side warmongers.

Using the war on Iraq as an example, the pacifists are those that sided with France, Germany, and Russia, who wanted solid evidence of WMD before attacking Iraq. The warmongers are those that sided with Bush and felt that a hunch backed by limited intelligence was sufficient for war.

Now I'm sure the Bush supporters will get defensive now and say "that's not fair, I'm no warmonger". Fine, let's invent a better word. But just because you're a pacifist doesn't mean you're against war under any circumstance. And just because you're a warmonger doesn't mean you're against peace either.

Actually, I think there are better names for both sides already. Doves and hawks. From dictionary.com:

Dove: A person who advocates peace, conciliation, or negotiation in preference to confrontation or armed conflict.

Hawk: A person who favors military force or action in order to carry out foreign policy.

To me, a pacifist is a dove, and a warmonger is a hawk. Perhaps to you, pacifists and warmongers are just the extreme postions. If so, that explains why we were having a difficult time agreeing.


--------------------


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OfflineCornholio
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Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862406 - 08/29/03 11:43 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Carter wasn't involved in a war period (maybe the aftermat of Vietnam but nothing big).


Maybe because he was a pacifist???  :stoned:
Quote:

I said i didn't like Carter because he pacified every aspect of his presidency, if you disagree that's fine, just tell me where i'm mistaken.  If not the there really isn't much to discuss.


The only thing I disagreed with is that being a pacifist doesn't make you a bad leader (and I was specifically talking about pacifism with respect to war, and misunderstood that you took it to mean other things as well)
Quote:

If you'd like to send me a private message we can discuss my non-ability to think.


I was making a joke.  But you said you were "calling a rose a rose".  Maybe you're right.  If I'm a non-thinker, I'll apologize to you.  Let's find out:


Innvertigo:
is correct; Cornholio is a NON-thinker
is incorrect; Cornholio just had a different opinion



Quote:

I was showing an example of you trying to be self-rightous when you said that people who do this tend to be non-thinkers, if you want to do it then fine, just don't take the high road when it's convinient.


Show me where I called a stereotyper a non-thinker.  What I said was that a favorite tactic of people like Rush Limbaugh is to take a retarded liberal postion, and then say ALL liberals think that way.  My generalization was that liberals think doves make the best leaders and conservatives think hawks make the best leaders.  Was this generalization ridiculous???
Quote:

my context differed, but my statement was true and within the realm of reality. 


Unfortunately, that's what caused this debate.  And I apologized for misunderstanding your definition of "pacifier".  I looked it up on dictionary.com before I replied and that's the definition I used. 


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1862547 - 08/29/03 12:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
A pacifier isn't neccessary someone who makes peace, sometimes they can be more like appeasers. A leader is someone who can stand strong in the face of adversity and stand up for what they believe is right.

And strangely enough, Bush does meet these criteria, he faced the September 11th tragedy (I dont mean on the day but as a whole) and he is fighting for a cause he believes to be right.




Funny idea of a leader you have...
See i think a true leader is someone that can deny thier own assumtions, personal agendas, and what they believe is "right" and use logic and common sense, along with diplomacy to make thier country, and the world better than it is.



--------------------
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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862552 - 08/29/03 12:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe because he was a pacifist???




this is going to be another circular argument...no point in expounding i suppose.

Quote:

The only thing I disagreed with is that being a pacifist doesn't make you a bad leader (and I was specifically talking about pacifism with respect to war, and misunderstood that you took it to mean other things as well)




Carter would never make a decision unless EVERYONE was on board. That was my point.

Quote:

I was making a joke. But you said you were "calling a rose a rose". Maybe you're right. If I'm a non-thinker, I'll apologize to you. Let's find out:




wow, you are being quite sensitive. i don't really believe you don't have the ability to think, but you do tend to create arguments that aren't there. If you liked the way Carter "lead" our country then that is your perogative(sp).

Quote:

Unfortunately, that's what caused this debate. And I apologized for misunderstanding your definition of "pacifier". I looked it up on dictionary.com before I replied and that's the definition I used.




What caused the debate was your inability to just take my words at face value. You just wanted to create an argument that was never really there, but this is a debate thread so i should of expected it.

Don't take it personally, i sure don't.

Edit: "is incorrect; Cornholio just had a different opinion"

the argument has nothing to do with your differing opinion. Quit being so sensitive.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/29/03 01:05 PM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862555 - 08/29/03 12:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Where is the third option?!

"Cornholio is correct and invertigo is the non-thinker" ???


--------------------
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OfflinePhred
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862561 - 08/29/03 12:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Cornholio writes:

You seem to imply that if a pacifist were President and his country were attacked, he would roll over and not do anything ("their coninued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not (misperceive reality)").

There is a difference between a dove, a pacifist, and a pacifier -- i.e. appeaser.

Before arguing about this I think we need to clarify our definitions because this may all come down to a semantics argument that we may not even disagree on once the definitions are clarified. First of all, I am using the definition of pacifism which specifically has to do with one's position on war (a definition which caused all the confusion in the first place).

I was responding to your claim that "Anyone who is not a pacifist by the dictionary.com definition is against peace." If you want to now alter your position and say that the dictionary.com definition is not the one you feel happiest with, fine by me.

But my original rebuttal remains correct. One need not believe that "...disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully," in order to prefer peace to war. The thing is, the dictionary.com definition of "pacifist" is in fact the generally accepted definition of pacifist, and it is one I see confirmed here over and over again on this board by those who proclaim themselves to be pacifists. A pacifist is one who believes violence is wrong no matter what the circumstances. A pacifist believes that not only is the initiation of violence wrong, but so is retaliatory violence or pre-emptive violence. Such people have no grasp of how reality works; their existence is protected by those who do.

But just because you're a pacifist doesn't mean you're against war under any circumstance.

Ummm... according to dictionary.com and Buddhists and hippies and all, yes it does. "Pacifist" by definition means you're against war under any circumstance. If you were in favor of war under certain circumstances you would not be a pacifist, you'd be a dove.

To me, a pacifist is a dove, and a warmonger is a hawk.

You are wrong in both cases. A dove is one who will go to extreme, even ludicrous lengths, to avoid war, but will nonetheless go to war if there is no other option. A pacifist will never go to war. A warmonger will choose war as the very first option, while a hawk will not.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862600 - 08/29/03 01:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

well put....i really didn't think this would cause that much of a debate since it's been done before. Cornholio still makes this topic a bit more interesting.


--------------------

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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862610 - 08/29/03 01:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio still makes this topic a bit more interesting.



Yes. That's why I'd miss him if he left.

It's a shame he's not right very often though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862676 - 08/29/03 01:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, it was a semantics problem.  Glad it's cleared up.    :smirk:

I (and possibly Gazz too) totally misunderstood what Inny meant when he said Carter was a pacifier.  According to dictionary.com (which I looked at before I made my first post), a pacifier is "someone who tries to bring peace".  I took that to mean pacifist which is "The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully" (sounds similar).  I wasn't aware of the Buddhist/hippie "is opposed to war no matter what the circumstances" definition.

Edit:  I also just noticed st0nedphucker's post that "a pacifier isn't neccessary someone who makes peace, sometimes they can be more like appeasers."

Sorry for the unnessesary debate, it was a misunderstanding:nut:     


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (08/29/03 01:58 PM)


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862686 - 08/29/03 01:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Cornholio still makes this topic a bit more interesting. 



Yes. That's why I'd miss him if he left.


Haha, thanks!  I so meant to be gone by now, but I'm a fuckin' addict!  :syringe:

Quote:

It's a shame he's not right very often though. 


***Bitch-slaps lds***  :wink: 


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862687 - 08/29/03 01:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Don't apologize to me you don't need to, it happens.


--------------------

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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862869 - 08/29/03 02:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Worst presidents?

Democrats:
FDR, Carter

Republicans:
Nixon, Both Bushes, but especially Sr. That man is evil. I keep a crossbow by my bed at night just in case he sends his goons for me!


--------------------
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862899 - 08/29/03 02:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

***Bitch-slaps lds*** 



Sorry man, I realize the truth hurts but hey.... whatcha gonna do?
:kiss:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1863217 - 08/29/03 04:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

***Bitch-slaps lds*** 



Sorry man, I realize the truth hurts but hey.... whatcha gonna do?
:kiss: 



Be satisfied with the fact that we're right and you're wrong. :wink:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1863573 - 08/29/03 07:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Should it ever happen, we can talk about it then.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1863692 - 08/29/03 08:16 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm... let me think... George Bush Jr, by any chance?

The man is taking away our freedoms and is leading the country for the pursuit of money for himself, his associates, and their campaign contributors. Time and time again this has been proven. There is really no regard towards the future of the U.S., it doesn't seem to matter to him.

Search for George Bush's Resume on here, it should help some.

I couldn't call George Bush a leader, by any means. He sort of fuels this propaganda push to get people to follow his cause.. People are misled into fighting for our freedom that really hasn't been threatened anymore than it ever has been, and in the pursuit of this continued "freedom", we have given up a lot of our actual freedom and many people have died to support his and others oil claims...

To say that Iraq was anything but oil and good publicity is far from the truth, I think. Too bad the good publicity aspect of the deal completely backfired... It must suck having almost 99% of the world, not including your own country, think you are a moron and on a path to ruining a once proud country...
Peace.


--------------------
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Like being here
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Offlineshakta
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863727 - 08/29/03 08:29 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Just to clarify, are you a US citizen? Nice generalations and bogus claims in your post there.

Quote:

To say that Iraq was anything but oil and good publicity is far from the truth, I think




:rolleyes:

Quote:

It must suck having almost 99% of the world, not including your own country, think you are a moron and on a path to ruining a once proud country...[/quote

If it were remotely true it would suck I guess. Honestly though, a lot of us don't really care what the rest of the world thinks. We are doing what we are doing to protect ourselves and the rest of the world from murderers.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: shakta]
    #1863757 - 08/29/03 08:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Just to clarify, are you a US citizen? Nice generalations and bogus claims in your post there.




Yes, I am a U.S. citizen, and seen the shit that has been happening in the country first hand, and I now have a good view from outside the system (been here for a month so far).

Generalizations happen when you don't have a lot of time to go indepth.. Are you saying that oil and public opinion have almost nothing to do with our involvement with Iraq?

Quote:


If it were remotely true it would suck I guess. Honestly though, a lot of us don't really care what the rest of the world thinks. We are doing what we are doing to protect ourselves and the rest of the world from murderers.




Well, it is remotely true, and a little more than remotely..

Obviously, a lot of America doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks, and that seems to be the problem...

And, if you think that Bush is truly motivated to protect everyone from the evil inherent in the dark shadows of the world, his propaganda and misleading have gotten you, too.. I can in no way think of Bush putting up the good fight, as the rest of the world really can't, either, and if he's the saviour of what is good, then there is no hope...
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Offlineshakta
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863780 - 08/29/03 08:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Keep posting in here. This should be fun. :smile:

First of all, let's get to Iraq. The war was the result of Saddam not doing what the UN wanted him too. It became obvious that the UN was never going to get rid of him. I fully believe that if the Coalition had not decided to take care of him the UN never would have.

It is becoming clear that the man tried to play the world to keep himself in power. He would do just enough not to get removed. For example, letting the weapons inspectors in, and kicking them out. Then letting them in and not fully cooperating with them. After September 11th, the United States' tollerance for his behaviour became very small. He had been not doing what he was supposed to for 12 years. These tactics worked for him for 12 years, because he was never held accountable. The US's new attitude towards regimes like his, has definately hardened. He was a threat and he has been taken out.

The oil does have something to do with it. If he did not have the oil he would not be an important person, and would be of little harm to anyone. I would say that can be said of the whole region really. To claim that we went to war 'for the oil' and publicity is completely ridiculous. We are not stealing the Iraqis oil. It is being returned to them so they can benefit from it, instead of a murderous dictator. Sorry, but publicity as a reason for the war makes no sense at all. He already went to war and won and was very popular in the country. Iraq had nothing to do with publicity.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: shakta]
    #1863841 - 08/29/03 09:21 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Keep posting in here. This should be fun. :smile:

It is becoming clear that the man tried to play the world to keep himself in power. He would do just enough not to get removed. For example, letting the weapons inspectors in, and kicking them out. Then letting them in and not fully cooperating with them. After September 11th, the United States' tollerance for his behaviour became very small. He had been not doing what he was supposed to for 12 years. These tactics worked for him for 12 years, because he was never held accountable. The US's new attitude towards regimes like his, has definately hardened. He was a threat and he has been taken out.





Saddam Hussein is obviously a smart man. He obviously seemed to have an attachment to staying in power. What he has done recently could have been predicted by ANYONE to lead to what it has, his removal of power. This, combined with how crafty this old fellow is, doesn't seem to add up...

There is obviously a lot that is going on that is under the surface, never exposed to the public, as it usually isn't. Saddam's actions that directly lead to his removal of power seem to contradict his thirst for power.. he doesn't seem like a man that would do anything to lead to his own death or removal of office... Something else is going on here.

What you are saying feels nice to believe, that everything that Bush has said is true and accounts for why we are involved.. Fighting the noble fight for terrorism for the good of the people and our freedom seems to be a good fight to jump aboard, does it not? How easy it must be for a man who is deeply connected with shady business men and shady practices to use that front for his own schemes...

When you look in the right places, and are not clouded by what has been purposely set up to cloud your vision, you can see some hideous truths..

And what I was referring to as a publicity stunt was Bush's involvement in Iraq. Using the word publicity isn't really defining, what I am referring to is his attempt to continue leading everyone to what he wants them to believe, and he has greatly overstepped and revealed himself and his intentions.. Where is our proof that he had and intended to use Weapons of Mass Destruction? It seems that the pursuit of those was our only justifiable reason to the world why we were going in...
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Offlineshakta
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863852 - 08/29/03 09:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So you believe it is all a big conspiracy, huh? That's fine. I don't really feel like arguing the reasons for the war over again right now. I am going to smoke a blunt.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: shakta]
    #1863860 - 08/29/03 09:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Nice generalations and bogus claims in your post there.


Which statements do you disagree with?

"The man is taking away our freedoms and is leading the country for the pursuit of money for himself, his associates, and their campaign contributors. Time and time again this has been proven. There is really no regard towards the future of the U.S., it doesn't seem to matter to him."

This one isn't even subject to debate anymore, is it?

"Search for George Bush's Resume on here, it should help some."

OUCH!  Low blow.  :lol:

"People are misled into fighting for our freedom that really hasn't been threatened anymore than it ever has been, and in the pursuit of this continued "freedom", we have given up a lot of our actual freedom and many people have died to support his and others oil claims... "

Is this what you disagree with?  Do you really think our very freedom was actually being threatened by the deadly Iraqi army? 

"It must suck having almost 99% of the world, not including your own country, think you are a moron and on a path to ruining a once proud country..."

Ok, this is probably the part you disagree with.  Since some people in Britain and Australia support Bush, maybe 95% would have been a more accurate number. 

Edit:  By the way, way to attack his "generalization" with an even bigger generalization (saying his claims were "bogus")


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (08/29/03 09:30 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1863869 - 08/29/03 09:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well, a lot of British don't necessarily agree with it all, but Blair aims to please..
Peace.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863892 - 08/29/03 09:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think 95% is a gross overestimation. I pretty much disagree with most of his post, as you know from arguing with me. :smile:

The generalization, and bogus claim is definately the 99% part. I also think the claim about him leading the country into ruin for personal gain is totally bogus as well.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: shakta]
    #1863902 - 08/29/03 09:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but I find you yourself guilty of a lot of generalizations and lack of perception, but that is just my opinion.

What evidence do you have that a lot of the world actually does agree with Bush and what he is doing? Europe doesn't. That is a guaranteed. They sort of agree, but do not appreciate at all his blocking out their and, more importantly, the UN's involvement and their wishes.

The Middle East? Yeah, right.

Most of Asia stays out of it, keep to themselves, I think, although most are leftovers from the Soviet Union, China isn't on the best of terms, and of course the Koreans..

Basically, part of Britian, maybe Canada, and ISREAL. Whoo-hoo!
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Offlineshakta
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863912 - 08/29/03 09:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

People all over agree with us. Maybe not the majority in a lot of places, but they are out there. I would bet money that even 95% of Iraqis would be an over estimation.


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Offlined33p
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1863955 - 08/29/03 10:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My penis is 3 feet long. Since you have no way to prove it isnt, it must be true. Untill you have undefinable evidence that it isnt 3 feet long you are wrong.

That is pretty much the logic you are using for your arguements. You make up a random statement and say that it must be true untill shak can prove it isnt. Obviously shak wont poll the world so he can never live up to your terms of proving it is false. You have made an unwinable arguement that is ultimatly wrong. I see to much of that here.

And all i see is another blind person dogmatically buying into the popular hate of bush this forums upholds.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: d33p]
    #1864019 - 08/29/03 10:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Some random statement? A random statement portraying bush hate would run something like this: Bush's penis is 3 centimeters long and he hasn't been able to get it up for 20 years. Do a google search, there are a number of polls which support his evidence. Also if you read any foreign news or travel at all you would realize this is not some random statement.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: DeepDish]
    #1864220 - 08/29/03 11:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

LOL! I just did a Google search on Bush's penis size and came up with this site. Here's an exerpt from it:

CI Exclusive: Bush Trying To Make Up For Small Penis
Feb 24, 2003
In a CI exclusive we have discovered that George W Bush's penis is only half as long as Sadam's. It's belived that this is the real source of all the conflict between the two countries. According to sources at the World Penis Organization, all of the world leaders supporting armed conflict with Iraq have small penises. Conversely, nations that oppose war are governed by well hung men. In a related WPO statement the reason President Bush is not too concerned with the threats of North Korea is that their entire population has very tiny penises. The WPO is an international association tracking the penis size of many of the most important men in the world.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1864784 - 08/30/03 02:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"the entire world didn't hate us back then like they do now. "

ya they did, the media simply forgot to remind the people. After all most countries (except US) were well aware of what the us did and who they supported.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: d33p]
    #1865122 - 08/30/03 07:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
My penis is 3 feet long. Since you have no way to prove it isnt, it must be true. Untill you have undefinable evidence that it isnt 3 feet long you are wrong.

That is pretty much the logic you are using for your arguements. You make up a random statement and say that it must be true untill shak can prove it isnt. Obviously shak wont poll the world so he can never live up to your terms of proving it is false. You have made an unwinable arguement that is ultimatly wrong. I see to much of that here.

And all i see is another blind person dogmatically buying into the popular hate of bush this forums upholds.





Hmm.. I was kind of thinking that blindly accepting everything that the media tells you to believe in America as the Truth is ignorant and dogmatic...

Going to the whole "can't prove me it wrong", CIRCULAR reasoning huh? We see a lot of that in Spirituality and Philsophy...

So, the world is our FRIENDS, then, and they just go around accepting what Bush is doing as the right thing? Hmm.. it isn't so hard to prove that wrong. Check this out, from KRT Wire (notice that this was back in February):

Quote:

Bush's image in Europe takes a negative turn
By FAWN VRAZO and DANIEL RUBIN
Knight Ridder Newspapers

LONDON - Even before he took office, Europeans regarded President Bush as a cowboy, a mental lightweight with an itchy trigger finger and a me-first view of the world.

Now, with war looming, Bush's image overseas is taking an even more negative shift - so negative, in fact, that recent polls say Bush is as big a threat as Saddam Hussein.

Smirks at the president's down-home style and supposed lack of intelligence have largely died down, to be replaced by fears that his push for war could hurt Europeans where they live - either because war will widen into world conflict or because it will provoke more terrorist attacks at home.

As Chris Martin, singer for the pop band Coldplay declared at the Brit music awards - the British Grammys_ last week: "We are all going to die when George Bush has his way."

The most recent European poll on attitudes toward Bush, done by the YouGov organization for the Sunday Times of London last weekend, found an equal number - 45 percent - regarded Bush and Saddam as the "greatest threat to world peace." Last month, a poll by Germany's independent Forsa polling agency found much the same: 38 percent thought Saddam was the greatest threat; 37 percent picked Bush.

In France's popular Paris Match magazine, a poll last week reported that 76 percent of those questioned had a bad opinion of Bush; only 15 percent liked him.

The same negative opinions are easy to find on any street in Europe, where the name George W. Bush often produces instant rancor.

Said Charalambos Theodoridis, 62, a Greek-born television storeowner in Berlin: "Every time I see him open his mouth on television I am in fear of what he will say. And it is always something about Iraq, war with Iraq, war with Saddam, ignoring everything else in the world."

The anti-Bush feelings have no immediate strategic influence, say military experts, because tens of thousands of U.S. and U.K. troops are already in place and poised for an invasion of Iraq. But Bush's lack of respect abroad makes it difficult for the president to convince ordinary Europeans of the need for war; in turn, European leaders feel pressured by anti-war majorities in their countries.

While Bush may not need Europe's help to wage war in Iraq, European support for the rebuilding of Iraq could be critical.

Still, it's not certain that war led by a more popular president would play any better here.

Henryk Broder, a pro-American writer for Der Spiegel in Germany, feels "it's America, not Bush, that is the problem for Europeans, although his preaching tone and limited capacities do make him an easier target." Europeans are worried, he said, by "the fact that America is demanding the leading role in the world. Another president would be blamed as much as Bush is blamed."

But few presidents have gotten off to such a bad start overseas as Bush. From the beginning, he was unpopular on several counts.

His administration's step-back from international treaties, from the Kyoto global warming accord to the anti-ballistic missile treaty, contributed to a view that the new U.S. president didn't care about the rest of the world.

His straight and simple speaking style also didn't play well with a European public that found Bill Clinton to be sophisticated and eloquent.

Bush's manner of speaking "is rather strange to a British audience," said Rodney Barker, professor of government at the London School of Economics. "It's as if he doesn't speak a whole paragraph. He says a sentence. And then pauses. And then another sentence … as if each sentence were a self-contained little speech."

More upsetting have been Bush's frequent religious references - especially in parts of Europe that are barely religious anymore. In many recent European conflicts, from Northern Ireland to Kosovo, religious differences played the main role, as they did in many earlier European wars.

With war with Iraq on the horizon, religious talk from a U.S. president is raising fears of a religious crusade _a word, many here remember, that Bush once used to describe the war on terrorism.

"For world-weary Europe, the presidential language evokes mirth and queasiness in equal measure," wrote Rupert Cornwell in Britain's Independent newspaper. "A European leader who spoke in such terms would be laughed off the stage. An American one who speaks this way only increases the fear that simplicities of faith, and a habit of seeing a hideously complicated world in a black-and-white, good-and-evil fashion, are a recipe for disaster."

"George Bush is not an idiot," said commentator Christian Boltanski in France's Le Monde newspaper, "but he is convinced he is inspired by God and he is dangerous."

Bush is hardly the first U.S. president to be unpopular here.

"Ronald Reagan was very unpopular in Europe - seen as very narrow, very insular," said University of Keele lecturer John Dumbrell, author of the 2001 book "A Special Relationship: Anglo-American relations in the cold war and after."

Reagan was most unpopular when NATO - at Germany's request - introduced a plan to deploy cruise missiles in England and throughout western Europe, provoking large protest marches. At that time, Reagan's unpopularity seemed driven by the fact that Europeans were worried that his policies could trigger a nuclear war - just as many worry now that Bush's war plans could hurt them at home.

In another recent YouGov poll, 49 percent of Britons thought it likely that Britain's cooperation in a war against Iraq would increase terrorist attacks in Britain. Respondents had more fears about terrorist attacks or about the war spreading to the Middle East than they did about deaths of Iraqi civilians or British troops.

As negative as Bush's ratings are overseas, a silver lining for his administration is that he is less often dismissed as a leader without intellect.

His drive for war has meant that "he's not characterized as dumb as much as he used to be," observed Julie Smith, head of the European program for the Royal Institute of International Affairs think tank in London. "All of a sudden, people might say he's dangerous. But they're not saying he's a clot." A fool, that is.

(Vrazo reported from London, Rubin from Berlin. Knight Ridder Newspapers correspondents Andrea Gerlin in London and Ken Dilanian in Rome contributed to this report.)





And this was before he had justified his war if evidence that there were Weapons of Mass Destruction there, and none have turned up so far.. Saddam is still alive, just like Osama Bin Ladin. As Saddam has always did what he could do to stay in power, stay alive, and try to make the U.S. look bad, there must have been a reason he prompted the war..

And it is true. Most everyone (95% is pretty accurate) regard Bush as a direct threat to world peace and a deadly threat. It is seen that he is onlyy promoting his own agenda and will bring on a lot of bad things..

Not realizing what is really going on around you, especially on a world wide scale, is definitely what I call ignorant... what makes you offer your unwavering support of Bush?
Peace.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1865124 - 08/30/03 07:05 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Check this out.. It is a satire of George Bush's resume. Notice it as been posted on an Australian Politics website..

I'll keep digging..
Peace.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1865150 - 08/30/03 07:33 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

From CNN..

Quote:

LONDON, England (CNN) -- While Tony Blair's appearance at the Hutton inquiry has put the case for war in Iraq the spotlight, U.S. President George W. Bush hasn't faced the same measure of skepticism that the British prime minister has had to contend with.

For a look at how the Hutton inquiry could reverberate in the United States, CNN Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider joined CNN International Anchor Tony Campion in London. Following is a transcript of their conversation:

CAMPION: It's astonishing from a European and British perspective that there's been so little debate over the war in the United States. How does it feel for someone always looking at it from Washington?

SCHNEIDER: It feels very different over here (in London). In the United States there was bit of a debate over the issue of the 16 words that got into President Bush's January State of the Union speech concerning the effort by Iraq to supposedly purchase uranium from Niger in Africa.

There was bit of stir, but it didn't really amount to anything, and it more or less has gone away. A lot of people in the press say, "What ever happened to that issue?" Weapons of mass destruction simply was never, never as central to the case for war in the United States as it was here in Britain.

CAMPION: The reason we have an inquiry now here is because a top adviser to the government appears to have committed suicide. If that had happened in the United States, would there be an inquiry, would we be going down the same road?

SCHNEIDER: In the U.S. if someone had committed suicide who was involved in making this policy, then you would have a very sensational story and probably this same kind of occurrence would be happening in the United States, because that personalizes the story. And with 24-hour cable news services, they would dwell obsessively on the death, on the family and the circumstances surrounding the death.

Remember a congressman named Gary Condit who had an intern who was eventually found dead but who was missing for month after month after month? Cable news would not let go of that story because there was a death involved. Her family was paraded endlessly across the screen, they wanted to be, because they wanted to keep the story in news to find their daughter.

When there is a personality involved or death, it becomes a sensational story.

CAMPION: I guess President Bush is happy that the news isn't being discussed in his country. Blair must by contrast be disappointed that Bush's biggest ally is in trouble and the president hasn't said anything about it. Some kind of support for Tony Blair from George W. Bush, from a UK perspective, might not have been too much to ask.

SCHNEIDER: I think Bush understands that anything he says would have been misconstrued. I think he's best to stay a distance from this, because this is entirely a British procedure. It has to do with how the dossier was put together. Bush really has nothing he can say about this.

The only thing we know is that the CIA objected originally to the inclusion of the uranium mission in the British dossier and it had to be toned down. But I think anything Bush said probably would backfire, because Bush is not a popular figure in Britain. For Bush to come to Tony Blair's defense would probably create a backlash against Blair.

CAMPION: Polls show that popular support for a continued U.S. presence in Iraq is tending to fall back. Is that a separate issue from support for the war in the first place?


Blair arrives at the Royal Courts of Justice.
SCHNEIDER: It is a separate issue. Americans continue to believe in very strong majorities that the U.S. did the right thing in getting involved in Iraq. And for that matter a majority of Britons believed that too. But what is creating a problem for President Bush is the continuing deaths of Americans.

The number of deaths since the war was declared over on May 1 now surpasses the number killed in the war. That is creating a problem, because the United States is paying $1 billion a week and losing about a soldier a day, and Americans don't understand what the mission now is, so they're getting a little bit exasperated over this.

It's not the war, they still say it was the right thing to do to overthrow Saddam Hussein. It is, "What are we doing there now?"

CAMPION: Bush is said to be now considering a plan to have U.N. troops under the command of a U.S. officer. A lot of people have been saying that couldn't happen. What do you think?

SCHNEIDER: I think it could happen, but the key phrase is what you said, "under the command of a U.S. official." We are willing to allow others to shoulder the burden, but how much of responsibility, how much control they will have remains to be seen.

Will other countries be willing to participate in the burden if they don't really have any control over the situation? That's going to be a very difficult thing for them.





It is a great possbility that the British people will hang Blair up to dry for his involvement and support of Bush..
Peace.


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OfflineClover
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1865204 - 08/30/03 08:40 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It is up to us to question the motives and decisions of our elected officials. It is no longer a matter of trust, but a matter of truth. The incident concerning Bush's inclusion of the supposed Nigerian uranium purchase was fully known to be speculative at best, but in order to further the cause of the war, he knew it must be included. He knew that in order to garner support of the war, he would need to cast that small seed in the minds of the public. Just like the WMD statements. Sure, 10 years down the line Saddam *may* have been a threat to us, who knows? We can only speculate at this point. However, I do not think that US decision making-policy needs to be based on speculative actions of others.

What Blair is experiencing now in respect to his actions in supporting Bush is a direct result of his seemingly blind allegiance to a full-blown war against people who had already suffered a great deal. I am not saying he was blind, but it looks to me as if that is what Britain is attempting to voice.

One can say a million times over that Iraq is better off now that Saddam is out of power, but at what cost to them and to the US? When is it enough? I am not saying that Bush blindly persued an invasion of Iraq, hell he had been planning it for damn near 10 years, but his choices left much to be desired EVEN if he felt he was doing the right thing. Let us not forget that the US actually had a hand in warranting them ANY power at all in the 80's. And NOW there is regret? Too late to turn back now I suppose.

In answer to the original post, however, I do not think Bush is the anti-christ. I truly believe he does not make decisions solely on the basis of his own merit. The problem arises when the majority of the nation perceives the president as an omnipotent being incapable of making mistakes and blindly embarks on supportive campaigns with no where-with-all to question a leader's decisions.


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



Edited by Clover (08/30/03 09:10 AM)


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Clover]
    #1865238 - 08/30/03 09:11 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well said.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Edame]
    #1865570 - 08/30/03 12:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Iv'e never understood why people seem to think bush is just some guy all alone in the white house shouting out demands at america. He works with thousands of people and advisors. Everything he says and acts on goes through scores first.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: d33p]
    #1865648 - 08/30/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

^^^I agree. I don't think Bush is solely responsible for all the horrible shit his administration has done. I just think he trusts people who are inherently untrustworthy(Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz, etc.).


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: d33p]
    #1866113 - 08/30/03 04:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Iv'e never understood why people seem to think bush is just some guy all alone in the white house shouting out demands at america. He works with thousands of people and advisors. Everything he says and acts on goes through scores first.




I don't seem to think that.. but, he's suspossed to be this impressive leader, right? The captain goes down with his ship. It is because the leader is the one held responsible for the actions of his crew. And, if he isn't doing a good job of it, I can't see him being such an impressive leader..
Peace.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: d33p]
    #1866343 - 08/30/03 05:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Iv'e never understood why people seem to think bush is just some guy all alone in the white house shouting out demands at america. He works with thousands of people and advisors. Everything he says and acts on goes through scores first.


Doesn't Bush get to pick the vast majority of the people that he works with (particulary his advisors)? If he picked the wrong people, that's his fault.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: d33p]
    #1867117 - 08/30/03 11:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Bush does have the power to make decisions without consulting those in his cabinet. Bush knew coming into the presidency that this was what he was going to do. Being the president means he is held accountable for his actions nevertheless - consultation of a million cabinet members or not - he has the final word.

Arguing about the invasion of Iraq now is a moot point anyway. That part is done. Now we are looking at the rebuilding - starting point of hundreds of billions of dollars of American taxpayer money.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1867312 - 08/31/03 12:20 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed. However, he is the last and final word and he is going to be held damn well accountable for it. One million consultations with idiots or not.


--------------------
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Clover]
    #1867605 - 08/31/03 02:58 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, pouring billions of dollars into a reconstruction of people who hate us religiously and try killing us every chance we get... "Here, take all this money, we'll build buildings and stuff and help you all out, and then, of course, you can blow the buildings up and kill us..."

Let's find even more ways to waste millions of dollars! It is FUN! I mean, no sense stablizing our economy, paying off the debt, or eliminating poverty, we can just WASTE our money! Let's burn it up!
Peace.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1869195 - 08/31/03 08:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Let's see.....just WHAT would the US do with all those billions of dollars? Certainly we don't need it. No sense in taking care of our own when there's wealth to spread around to other countries, right?  :rolleyes:

I think there is a guilt complex associated with invading another country. Bush feels he must take care of the Iraqi people now that he has destroyed just about every resource they once had. Just where is the disbursement of funds from all the oil that the Iraqi people were promised? Using THAT revenue would just make too much sense I suppose.
In fact, I think electrical power in Bagdhad has been restored to what? Enough to burn one light bulb at half-wattage? PLEASE.   


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1873612 - 09/02/03 08:54 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What a racist post by you. Equating Islamic terrorists with the Iraqi people is pretty offensive to say the least. The vast majority of them have no intentions on killing us, and saying so is just stupid.

The one thing the President has not done, that irritates me about this war is the money to rebuild the country. His father was able to get 60 billion from around the world, and Bush does not seem to be trying very hard. The new work that is starting with the UN looks promising. Russia now says they will support a US lead UN backed force in Iraq.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1883969 - 09/05/03 04:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Wow, this is the most responded to poll I've seen in this forum. 33 out of 51 people (2/3) think that Bush is the worst President of all time!

Like I said in a previous post, he has the usual number of supporters. But the people who don't like him REALLY don't like him!!!

Although this is "just" a shroomery poll, I'm surprised at how many people I've heard elsewhere say he our worst President ever. I hear that almost every day on the University of Texas radio station (right here in the capital of Bush's home state!)


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1884169 - 09/05/03 08:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Dude its a college radio station. That means about as much as your poll. Nada.


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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1884389 - 09/05/03 09:32 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: ]
    #1884395 - 09/05/03 09:35 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Judge people by the standards of their time. He may have been a racist, but so was just about everyone else back then.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1884872 - 09/05/03 11:55 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Judge people by the standards of their time. He may have been a racist, but so was just about everyone else back then.



Wise words.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1884877 - 09/05/03 11:58 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: ]
    #1884947 - 09/05/03 12:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Somebody bite your ass today? Or did you make a conscious decision to be a jackass?

Peoples actions, when judged by the standards of their time, often paint a much different picture than when looking back.

200 years from now I'm sure even the most "enlightened" of us will look like asses. I have no doubt they'll look back and have no trouble seeing what a racist load of crap affirmative action is.

And where did you see either silversoul or myself say it makes it better? As the human race gets older, it gets wiser. That's a strategy you'd do well to emulate.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: shakta]
    #1885480 - 09/05/03 02:52 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Dude its a college radio station. That means about as much as your poll. Nada.


Are you saying people who go to college are stupid? Or the people who post in the shroomery? I'm just confused by what your statement means, maybe you can clarify.

And if you do a Google search for the worst President of all time, over 2/3 of the hits also say that George W is the worst of all time. Of course, that probablyl doesn't matter to you either. So what would matter?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1885580 - 09/05/03 03:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

My point is that the shroomery nor the college radio station, and certainly not the internet are representative of the majority of Americans.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1888755 - 09/06/03 04:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have to say jimmy, that guy is such a fucking bastard it aint even funny.

Then there's clinton


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: shakta]
    #1888826 - 09/06/03 04:56 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
My point is that the shroomery nor the college radio station, and certainly not the internet are representative of the majority of Americans.




So, what is the representation of the majority of Americans? What is said on the news? Please enlighten..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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