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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862086 - 08/29/03 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

a little sensitive i see.

Quote:

A pacifist is "one who believes that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully." 




i never even mentioned war.  He was a pacifist in the way he always went the way of least resistance, domestic agenda, foreign. agenda etc.  Why are you making more aboot this then there is?  Move on.

Quote:

As far as the "try thinking" comment goes, now you're getting into ad hominen attacks




I've never denied using that style.  Sometimes someone has to just be honest in the way some people are.  I don't deny it nor am i ashamed.  As the old saying goes: "if the shoe fits....." you know the rest.

Quote:

If you're against peace, then you must be for war




That aboot sums it up in the la la libbie land.  Are you being sarcastic or do you actually believe this?  who's against peace?

Quote:

And I agree, we shouldn't stereotype. Wait a minute, in the very same post you said "You libbies like to read into everything without thinking." Talk about being hypocritical! 




I'd only be a hypocrite if "I" was the one who whined aboot people stereotyping.  If i recall it was you who did this.  I don't deny getting personal nor do i backtrack from my statement that libbies read into everything, mind you i'm talking aboot libbies.  I use Aristotelean law "a" is "a", a rose is a rose. You should try this, you're life would be easier and less conflicting. :smirk:


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862087 - 08/29/03 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I try to throw in a few 's to show that I'm just having fun, so I hope I don't come across as being too much of a jerk.


Soory man, but the chance for you to not appear a jerk is long past!


:lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862136 - 08/29/03 10:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
i never even mentioned war.  He was a pacifist in the way he always went the way of least resistance, domestic agenda, foreign. agenda etc.  Why are you making more aboot this then there is?  Move on.


Gotcha.  Sorry, I was using the dictionary.com definition of pacifist.  You were using another definition.  That makes all the difference in the world, and explains the confusion.

Quote:

Sometimes someone has to just be honest in the way some people are.  I don't deny it nor am i ashamed.  As the old saying goes: "if the shoe fits....." you know the rest.


Ok, fair enough.  You're clearly the non-thinker here (personally, I don't think ad-hominen attacks are very effective, but I'll roll with it if you do).  :rolleyes:
Quote:

That aboot sums it up in the la la libbie land.  Are you being sarcastic or do you actually believe this?  who's against peace?


Well, I think we've cleared that up.  Anyone who is not a pacifist by the dictionary.com definition is against peace.
Quote:

I'd only be a hypocrite if "I" was the one who whined aboot people stereotyping.  If i recall it was you who did this.


I was attempting to describe the difference between a liberal and conservative.  By your standards, this would be impossible without stereotyping.  Even if I attempted to define the difference, that would be stereotyping too, wouldn't it?  :smirk:
Quote:

I don't deny getting personal nor do i backtrack from my statement that libbies read into everything, mind you i'm talking aboot libbies.  I use Aristotelean law "a" is "a", a rose is a rose. You should try this, you're life would be easier and less conflicting. :smirk: 


Again, based on the dictionary definition of pacifist, my read was correct.  I see that you had a different definition in mind, so I apologize.  :smirk:   


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862139 - 08/29/03 10:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862162 - 08/29/03 10:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Cornholio writes:

Anyone who is not a pacifist by the dictionary.com definition is against peace.

Incorrect. One can be in favor of peace (as opposed to being "against peace") yet still not be a "pacifist".

Pacifists choose their stance based on how they think the world should be, not on how it is. As with all entities who misperceive reality, their continued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862191 - 08/29/03 10:55 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This link is for inny. He wanted an example.




what was this supposed to prove?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862196 - 08/29/03 10:56 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Were you ever a carpenter pinky? Because you sure hit that nail right on the head. Bravo.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862293 - 08/29/03 11:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gotcha. Sorry, I was using the dictionary.com definition of pacifist. You were using another definition. That makes all the difference in the world, and explains the confusion.




then why did LDS get it and you didn't? Carter wasn't involved in a war period (maybe the aftermat of Vietnam but nothing big. Carter basically shut down the government over the hostages in Iran. That is NOT a good example of a leader. They had him by the balls.

Quote:

Ok, fair enough. You're clearly the non-thinker here




What are you talking aboot? you're the one making up topics to argue aboot. I said i didn't like Carter because he pacified every aspect of his presidency, if you disagree that's fine, just tell me where i'm mistaken. If not the there really isn't much to discuss. If you'd like to send me a private message we can discuss my non-ability to think. Or maybe another thread is in order?

Quote:

By your standards, this would be impossible without stereotyping.




I was showing an example of you trying to be self-rightous when you said that people who do this tend to be non-thinkers, if you want to do it then fine, just don't take the high road when it's convinient.

Quote:

Again, based on the dictionary definition of pacifist, my read was correct.




my context differed, but my statement was true and within the realm of reality.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCornholio
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Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862328 - 08/29/03 12:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
One can be in favor of peace (as opposed to being "against peace") yet still not be a "pacifist".

Pacifists choose their stance based on how they think the world should be, not on how it is. As with all entities who misperceive reality, their continued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not.


You seem to imply that if a pacifist were President and his country were attacked, he would roll over and not do anything ("their coninued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not (misperceive reality)"). I disagree. While Carter was a Pacifist, I don't think he would have avoided war under any circumstance.

Before arguing about this I think we need to clarify our definitions because this may all come down to a semantics argument that we may not even disagree on once the definitions are clarified. First of all, I am using the definition of pacifism which specifically has to do with one's position on war (a definition which caused all the confusion in the first place).

The way I see it, people's views on war fall on a spectrum, from extreme pacifist to extreme warmonger. I would guess that their views fall on a bell shaped curve in between each extreme. I would consider those on the one side of the curve pacifists, and those on the other side warmongers.

Using the war on Iraq as an example, the pacifists are those that sided with France, Germany, and Russia, who wanted solid evidence of WMD before attacking Iraq. The warmongers are those that sided with Bush and felt that a hunch backed by limited intelligence was sufficient for war.

Now I'm sure the Bush supporters will get defensive now and say "that's not fair, I'm no warmonger". Fine, let's invent a better word. But just because you're a pacifist doesn't mean you're against war under any circumstance. And just because you're a warmonger doesn't mean you're against peace either.

Actually, I think there are better names for both sides already. Doves and hawks. From dictionary.com:

Dove: A person who advocates peace, conciliation, or negotiation in preference to confrontation or armed conflict.

Hawk: A person who favors military force or action in order to carry out foreign policy.

To me, a pacifist is a dove, and a warmonger is a hawk. Perhaps to you, pacifists and warmongers are just the extreme postions. If so, that explains why we were having a difficult time agreeing.


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OfflineCornholio
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Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862406 - 08/29/03 12:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Carter wasn't involved in a war period (maybe the aftermat of Vietnam but nothing big).


Maybe because he was a pacifist???  :stoned:
Quote:

I said i didn't like Carter because he pacified every aspect of his presidency, if you disagree that's fine, just tell me where i'm mistaken.  If not the there really isn't much to discuss.


The only thing I disagreed with is that being a pacifist doesn't make you a bad leader (and I was specifically talking about pacifism with respect to war, and misunderstood that you took it to mean other things as well)
Quote:

If you'd like to send me a private message we can discuss my non-ability to think.


I was making a joke.  But you said you were "calling a rose a rose".  Maybe you're right.  If I'm a non-thinker, I'll apologize to you.  Let's find out:


Innvertigo:
is correct; Cornholio is a NON-thinker
is incorrect; Cornholio just had a different opinion



Quote:

I was showing an example of you trying to be self-rightous when you said that people who do this tend to be non-thinkers, if you want to do it then fine, just don't take the high road when it's convinient.


Show me where I called a stereotyper a non-thinker.  What I said was that a favorite tactic of people like Rush Limbaugh is to take a retarded liberal postion, and then say ALL liberals think that way.  My generalization was that liberals think doves make the best leaders and conservatives think hawks make the best leaders.  Was this generalization ridiculous???
Quote:

my context differed, but my statement was true and within the realm of reality. 


Unfortunately, that's what caused this debate.  And I apologized for misunderstanding your definition of "pacifier".  I looked it up on dictionary.com before I replied and that's the definition I used. 


Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1862547 - 08/29/03 01:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
A pacifier isn't neccessary someone who makes peace, sometimes they can be more like appeasers. A leader is someone who can stand strong in the face of adversity and stand up for what they believe is right.

And strangely enough, Bush does meet these criteria, he faced the September 11th tragedy (I dont mean on the day but as a whole) and he is fighting for a cause he believes to be right.




Funny idea of a leader you have...
See i think a true leader is someone that can deny thier own assumtions, personal agendas, and what they believe is "right" and use logic and common sense, along with diplomacy to make thier country, and the world better than it is.



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862552 - 08/29/03 01:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe because he was a pacifist???




this is going to be another circular argument...no point in expounding i suppose.

Quote:

The only thing I disagreed with is that being a pacifist doesn't make you a bad leader (and I was specifically talking about pacifism with respect to war, and misunderstood that you took it to mean other things as well)




Carter would never make a decision unless EVERYONE was on board. That was my point.

Quote:

I was making a joke. But you said you were "calling a rose a rose". Maybe you're right. If I'm a non-thinker, I'll apologize to you. Let's find out:




wow, you are being quite sensitive. i don't really believe you don't have the ability to think, but you do tend to create arguments that aren't there. If you liked the way Carter "lead" our country then that is your perogative(sp).

Quote:

Unfortunately, that's what caused this debate. And I apologized for misunderstanding your definition of "pacifier". I looked it up on dictionary.com before I replied and that's the definition I used.




What caused the debate was your inability to just take my words at face value. You just wanted to create an argument that was never really there, but this is a debate thread so i should of expected it.

Don't take it personally, i sure don't.

Edit: "is incorrect; Cornholio just had a different opinion"

the argument has nothing to do with your differing opinion. Quit being so sensitive.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/29/03 02:05 PM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862555 - 08/29/03 01:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Where is the third option?!

"Cornholio is correct and invertigo is the non-thinker" ???


--------------------
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Lest we forget. "


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OfflinePhred
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862561 - 08/29/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Cornholio writes:

You seem to imply that if a pacifist were President and his country were attacked, he would roll over and not do anything ("their coninued existence is contingent upon the actions of those who do not (misperceive reality)").

There is a difference between a dove, a pacifist, and a pacifier -- i.e. appeaser.

Before arguing about this I think we need to clarify our definitions because this may all come down to a semantics argument that we may not even disagree on once the definitions are clarified. First of all, I am using the definition of pacifism which specifically has to do with one's position on war (a definition which caused all the confusion in the first place).

I was responding to your claim that "Anyone who is not a pacifist by the dictionary.com definition is against peace." If you want to now alter your position and say that the dictionary.com definition is not the one you feel happiest with, fine by me.

But my original rebuttal remains correct. One need not believe that "...disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully," in order to prefer peace to war. The thing is, the dictionary.com definition of "pacifist" is in fact the generally accepted definition of pacifist, and it is one I see confirmed here over and over again on this board by those who proclaim themselves to be pacifists. A pacifist is one who believes violence is wrong no matter what the circumstances. A pacifist believes that not only is the initiation of violence wrong, but so is retaliatory violence or pre-emptive violence. Such people have no grasp of how reality works; their existence is protected by those who do.

But just because you're a pacifist doesn't mean you're against war under any circumstance.

Ummm... according to dictionary.com and Buddhists and hippies and all, yes it does. "Pacifist" by definition means you're against war under any circumstance. If you were in favor of war under certain circumstances you would not be a pacifist, you'd be a dove.

To me, a pacifist is a dove, and a warmonger is a hawk.

You are wrong in both cases. A dove is one who will go to extreme, even ludicrous lengths, to avoid war, but will nonetheless go to war if there is no other option. A pacifist will never go to war. A warmonger will choose war as the very first option, while a hawk will not.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862600 - 08/29/03 02:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

well put....i really didn't think this would cause that much of a debate since it's been done before. Cornholio still makes this topic a bit more interesting.


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862610 - 08/29/03 02:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio still makes this topic a bit more interesting.



Yes. That's why I'd miss him if he left.

It's a shame he's not right very often though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Phred]
    #1862676 - 08/29/03 02:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, it was a semantics problem.  Glad it's cleared up.    :smirk:

I (and possibly Gazz too) totally misunderstood what Inny meant when he said Carter was a pacifier.  According to dictionary.com (which I looked at before I made my first post), a pacifier is "someone who tries to bring peace".  I took that to mean pacifist which is "The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully" (sounds similar).  I wasn't aware of the Buddhist/hippie "is opposed to war no matter what the circumstances" definition.

Edit:  I also just noticed st0nedphucker's post that "a pacifier isn't neccessary someone who makes peace, sometimes they can be more like appeasers."

Sorry for the unnessesary debate, it was a misunderstanding:nut:     


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (08/29/03 02:58 PM)


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1862686 - 08/29/03 02:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Cornholio still makes this topic a bit more interesting. 



Yes. That's why I'd miss him if he left.


Haha, thanks!  I so meant to be gone by now, but I'm a fuckin' addict!  :syringe:

Quote:

It's a shame he's not right very often though. 


***Bitch-slaps lds***  :wink: 


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1862687 - 08/29/03 02:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Don't apologize to me you don't need to, it happens.


--------------------

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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: IS BUSH THE WORST US PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME??? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1862869 - 08/29/03 03:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Worst presidents?

Democrats:
FDR, Carter

Republicans:
Nixon, Both Bushes, but especially Sr. That man is evil. I keep a crossbow by my bed at night just in case he sends his goons for me!


--------------------
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