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InvisiblexXMadhatterXxx
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: LysergicX7]
    #18536889 - 07/09/13 10:07 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LysergicX7 said:
How can you think mushrooms make your brain swell? Shit man if you just read literally anything scientific about mushrooms you'd realize they are physically an incredibly safe non toxic drug.

As to what they do to "YOU" is a very good question, and somewhat a subjective one. I personally think they broaden consciousness and awareness.




Absolutley. The quotes in your sig match perfectly with what you just said as well. I agree.

Personally, mushrooms are just nature's way of guiding human evolution.  Just how a tree is naturally engineered to have tasty fruit in order to secure it's survival, psychedelics play some significant part in the evolution of neuron networking.


--------------------
" If you cannot do what you want; Do what you can."

" If Christians go to Heaven, I'd rather go to hell."
                                    -Hatuey

" Humans are the only creature that refuses to be what it is."

Everything I say or post is fictional. Just sayin.


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Invisibleatomicshaman
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Ilift]
    #18536951 - 07/09/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ilift said:
Chemicals in psilocybin mushrooms (pscilocin) which chemical composition is similar to seratonin which is our feel good hormone but also controls our senses  binds to the receptor and while the drug is active changes the "settings" of these receptors which create effects, in essence pscilocybin is a poison in a sense that in nature it is produced for a purpose to defend itself just like some mushrooms are deadly while others just make you sick. Naturally occurring psychoactive compounds serve a purpose in nature but we as humans utilise these for psychoactive effects, such as THC on the cannabis plant which is used for pollination.




thc isnt waht causes pollination , its pollen .:confused:


--------------------
I only do legal drugs like alcohol , tobacco and valium so fuck off and die :goat:

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OfflineXingu
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: atomicshaman]
    #18537243 - 07/09/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.kurzweilai.net/this-is-your-brain-on-magic-mushrooms

"It has been commonly assumed that psychedelics work by increasing neural activity, but it turns out psilocybin actually reduced blood flow and neural activity in several brain regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex. And subjects in which these regions were most inhibited tended to report the most intense hallucinatory experiences in the experiment.

But the researchers suggested an explanation. These are the same regions of the brain that are hubs in the “default mode network” (DMN) — a network of brain regions that becomes active when you allow your mind to wander. So what apparently happened is that the subjects were able to achieve an unconstrained style of cognition — in other words, totally trip out without the usual reality constraints.

“These results may have implications beyond explaining how psilocybin works in the brain by implying that the DMN is crucial for the maintenance of cognitive integration and constraint under normal conditions,” the researchers said. “This finding is consistent with Aldous Huxley’s ‘reducing valve’ metaphor and Karl Friston’s ‘free-energy principle,’ which propose that the mind/brain works to constrain its experience of the world.”"

They're a low toxicity antagonist, very unlikely to cause brain swelling, toxic effects, etc.


Edited by Xingu (07/09/13 11:24 PM)


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OfflinePsychonauticOne
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: urbannerd]
    #18537501 - 07/10/13 12:31 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

I'd like to add that seretonergic psychedelics such as Psilocybin and LSD very likely stimulate the production of neurotrophic factors in the brain which can, in some of their forms, be responsible for destruction of inter-neuronal synapses (trimming tree branches, so to speak), while, in their other forms, be responsible for the creation of new synapses and diversification of the old.

Psychedelics seem to work their magic, at least to some extent, through various methods of neuroplasticity, defined by Wikipedia as:

"changes in neural pathways and synapses which are due to changes in behavior, environment and neural processes..."

Below is displayed the method by which both seretonegric psychedelics and dissociative psychedelics affect the production endogenous neurotrophic factors, specifically BDNF.



--------------------
“I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about. The mystery is in the body and the way the body works itself into nature.”
– Terence McKenna

“You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding.”
– Terence McKenna


Edited by PsychonauticOne (07/10/13 12:36 AM)


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InvisibleBlind fool
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Xingu]
    #18538104 - 07/10/13 05:50 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Here, I found a more detailed article about this experiment. As you can see, the measurements were performed during the initial phase of the psilocybin administration. Therefore we can say the decrease of some specific regions in the brain happens at that time, however, there were never done any such measurements during the rest of the psychedelic experience, and therefore we are unable to for sure claim, these effects lasts even after the initial phase.


http://www.bna.org.uk/news/view.php?permalink=JM9V1SEME5
Quote:

Nutt and his team administered psilocybin to the volunteers by a slow—one minute long—injection while their brains were scanned by functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). “We wanted to know exactly what happens when you make that transition from the normal state to the psychedelic state,” he explained.




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Offlineurbannerd
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Blind fool]
    #18540125 - 07/10/13 04:42 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Wow, this has become one of my fav forums on this thread.

Although the answer is not 100% clear, it taught me more than I
expected to learn from this question.

It has always baffled me how its affected my mind/body and how
my body functions differently while under the influence.


--------------------
Soaking in the energy of the universe since '91


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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: urbannerd]
    #18540528 - 07/10/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Psychedelics are unselective amplifiers of subconscious processes (including sensations from the environment).

What they show you is your self.


--------------------
Stand up. You're not alone.


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OfflineXingu
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: urbannerd]
    #18541397 - 07/10/13 09:05 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

urbannerd said:
Although the answer is not 100% clear, it taught me more than I
expected to learn from this question.





Well, as with QP, inevitably what we are trying to understand is altered by our attempts to understand it, and will yield different answers depending on the way we are trying to understand it. With something as ineffable, and as connected to the microcosm as psychedelics, it would make sense that it would adhere to such principles. You'll get many different truths about psychedelics, all of which have potential validity. Take it all with a grain of salt though, all of us, and our sources of information, could be completely incorrect. Question it all. If psych's have taught me anything, it's that the beauty of life and experience lies in the mystery, the journey, and in the process of discovery, and not necessarily an answer or end result. One thing that is pretty well known is the long term safety of classical psych's in relatively infrequent usage at responsible doses. Know your mind, setting, and dose and you should be just fine...no brain swelling or poisoning.

Agreed with Lord Mclovin that they are an amplifier of subconscious processes...well, an amplifier of all cognitive and perception processes I would say, conscious and subconscious, though the nature of conscious cognition completely changes after a certain threshold. When you're wordlessly visualizing dramas or imagining concertos into existence it's a bit different than wondering what to eat for breakfast.


Edited by Xingu (07/10/13 09:08 PM)


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Offlineurbannerd
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Xingu]
    #18549233 - 07/12/13 03:01 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Found this that pretty much gave me a solid answer.
http://karmajello.com/mind-spirit/psychedelics/magic-mushrooms-reduce-selfish-depressive-brain-activity.html

http://karmajello.com/mind-spirit/psychedelics/psychedelics-wisdom-personal-growth.html


Quote:

A new study on psilocybin by British researchers supports Huxley’s theory. It shows for the first time how psilocybin — the drug contained in magic mushrooms — affects the connectivity of the brain. Researchers found that the psychedelic chemical, which is known to trigger feelings of oneness with the universe does not work by ramping up the brain’s activity as they’d expected. Instead, it reduces it.
Under the influence of mushrooms, overall brain activity drops, particularly in certain regions that are densely connected to sensory areas of the brain. When functioning normally, these connective “hubs” appear to help constrain the way we see, hear and experience the world, grounding us in reality. They are also the key nodes of a brain network linked to self-consciousness and depression. Psilocybin cuts activity in these nodes and severs their connection to other brain areas, allowing the senses to run free.




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InvisibleBlind fool
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: urbannerd]
    #18549363 - 07/12/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, but the study you refer to, is the same study I quoted in my last post in this thread. That is the decreasing activity has been observed in the transition from normal to psychedelic state. Unfortunately, no other measurements have been performed during the rest of the alternated state. Therefore it is not certain, if this decreased activity last after the initial state.

It will be interesting, when less intrusive methods for brain activity monitoring will be available, to track brain activity through the whole experience, from start to the end.


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InvisibleKT-BC
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Blind fool]
    #18549519 - 07/12/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

my opinion is, psychedelics let look into a different plane of consciousness. i think of it somewhat like a radio station of brain activity that most of us are tuned into, and taking psychedelics lets you do anything from surf that stations casually and at your own pace(low doses) to ripping the radio out of the dash with your bare hands (high doses)


that might be a stupid analogy buts that the way i see it


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InvisibleBlind fool
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: KT-BC]
    #18549856 - 07/12/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

I personally have a problem with the radio station / frequency channel analogy. For me the filter based analogy makes much more sense, especially if we look into how the brain works in reality.

It is known that the brain consists of a very large amount of neurons, which connects to each other forming specific networks, for processing various signals. Some networks handle the external inputs coming from sensors in our eyes, ears, nose, moth, skin and so on. Other specific networks are handling the internal signals. These signals are processed in the subconscious level filtering out what the brain do not feel is necessary to forward into the conscious level.

For example, did you know that the first processing of the visual information is already performed in the eyes? That is the light sensitive cells called rods and cones located in the retina are inputs to a layered neural network that is present in the eye performing the first preprocessing before it is sent to the visual cortex.

I personally have a problem with the radio station / frequency channel analogy. For me the filter based analogy makes much more sense, especially if we look into how the brain works in reality.



The visual cortex is very interesting since it is actually divided into numerous major functioning units, each doing different visual signal processing to form the final visual scene that you as a person is seeing. Most of this is done in the subconscious to avoid unnecessary distraction.



Therefore, in my opinion, what psychedelic does is loosening these processing procedures and letting more information through.

Also, did you guys know that our eyes micro vibrates? The light sensitive cells are responding on the change of the light. Therefore our eyes must constantly move from side to side (very slight movements) to induce the change. However, as you all can see our vision is stable since the stabilization is done subconsciously. And I would bet that this stabilization process is affected by the psychedelics and plays a vital part in the moving sensation of our visual scene when under influence of psychedelics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsaccade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_motion


Edited by Blind fool (07/12/13 05:43 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Blind fool] * 1
    #18554359 - 07/13/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Here, I found a more detailed article about this experiment. As you can see, the measurements were performed during the initial phase of the psilocybin administration. Therefore we can say the decrease of some specific regions in the brain happens at that time, however, there were never done any such measurements during the rest of the psychedelic experience, and therefore we are unable to for sure claim, these effects lasts even after the initial phase.





Yeah, that's what I've been complaining about ever since these shit-for-protocol studies were done and disseminated.  It only covers the come-up stage at best, and anybody who's ever done this stuff knows that your brain goes partially off-line during that.  No wonder it shows some depression of activity. :lol:

What's worse, they injected psilocybin intravenously (IIRC) and so screwed up in another way, as it has to go through dephosphorylation in the liver before becoming psilocin, the true active.

The studies are basically useless.  They could have sought some real knowledge on the effects before proceeding in such a half-assed way. :thumbdown:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #18556003 - 07/14/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What's worse, they injected psilocybin intravenously (IIRC) and so screwed up in another way, as it has to go through dephosphorylation in the liver before becoming psilocin, the true active.




That point is not valid criticism. Psilocybin is not active by itself, as you said, it needs to be converted to psilocin in the liver. However, this is exactly what happens when you inject it intravenously: It goes from the bloodstream to the liver to become psilocin and is then able to act on those beautiful serotonin receptors in your brain.
The only difference is that you now have a first pass effect (just like you have with heroin, which is also not active by itself and is converted to morphine in the liver) and this implies an extremely fast onset. This also invalidates your first point as they were thus mainly measuring the effects on the brain on the peak and plateau.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #18557184 - 07/14/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

That point is not valid criticism. Psilocybin is not active by itself, as you said, it needs to be converted to psilocin in the liver. However, this is exactly what happens when you inject it intravenously: It goes from the bloodstream to the liver to become psilocin and is then able to act on those beautiful serotonin receptors in your brain.
The only difference is that you now have a first pass effect (just like you have with heroin, which is also not active by itself and is converted to morphine in the liver) and this implies an extremely fast onset. This also invalidates your first point as they were thus mainly measuring the effects on the brain on the peak and plateau.




Nice try, but no carrot. :lol:  Heroin is converted to morphine in the brain.  I've been on a morphine drip...it was intense.

See Wiki:
Quote:

When the drug is injected, however, it avoids this first-pass effect, very rapidly crossing the blood–brain barrier because of the presence of the acetyl groups, which render it much more fat soluble than morphine itself.[55] Once in the brain, it then is deacetylated variously into the inactive 3-monoacetylmorphine and the active 6-monoacetylmorphine (6-MAM), and then to morphine, which bind to μ-opioid receptors, resulting in the drug's euphoric, analgesic (pain relief), and anxiolytic (anti-anxiety) effects; heroin itself exhibits relatively low affinity for the μ receptor.




Psilocybin does not pass the blood-brain barrier.  Liver dephosphorylation converts it to psilocin which of course does pass the blood-brain barrier (as a serotonin analog).  And I'll readily allow that going from the bloodstream to the liver releases active psilocin into the brain within a couple minutes, as that's what one of their MRI studies showed: 

Quote:

The subjective effects of intravenous psilocybin (2 mg) peak a few minutes after infusion and persist for approximately 25–30 min (online Fig. DS1 and Carhart-Harris et al10); thus, the subjective effects of psilocybin were robust throughout the behavioural scan. The total duration of the behavioural scan was 18.5 min (370 whole brain volumes).






Here however is clear evidence of greater brain activity during autobiographical recall than with a placebo.  Late phase activation is showing translucent red, early phase activation in orange - so they're just barely looking at the stable portion of tripping.  This is exactly what I'd expect to see based on vast personal experience.

Quote:

Since secondary sensory and high-level attention areas are typically deactivated during periods of introspection,11 we considered the possibility that the putative activations in these regions under psilocybin were in fact deactivations under placebo. To assess this, we looked at the first-level results for both conditions and calculated the mean percentage BOLD signal change to memories v. rest in the three above-mentioned clusters (Fig. 4). One cluster was in the left occipital pole and visual association regions (red in Fig. 4), one was in the left primary and secondary auditory cortex and left somatosensory and superior parietal areas (blue in Fig. 4), and one was in the right primary and secondary auditory cortex and right somatosensory and superior parietal areas (green in Fig. 4). After calculating the mean signal changes in each cluster, large deactivations were evident in the left and right hemisphere clusters under placebo (blue and green, Fig. 4), but true activations under psilocybin were found for all of the clusters – especially the visual one (red, Fig. 4), confirming that visual and other sensory regions are activated by memory cues under psilocybin.




Basically at odds with the new "urban legend" conclusion that psilocin depresses brain function.  And keep in mind these were relatively low doses they were experimenting with - and very short lived:

Quote:

A number of participants also commented on the brevity of the recollection period and how memories only became more vivid towards the end of the 16 s under psilocybin. For example: ‘I think the memories could develop more with more time – you could go deeper with more time’.




Quote:

Rostral anterior cingulate cortex blood flow was found to decrease during PTSD flashbacks (and to increase during dissociation),21 and in a previous psilocybin fMRI study by our group, we found an immediate, marked and sustained drop in medial prefrontal activity after intravenous psilocybin.5 The medial prefrontal cortex is known to exert a top-down inhibitory control over medial temporal lobe regions;6 thus, a decrease in medial prefrontal cortex activity may lead to a medial temporal lobe disinhibition.




What would be much more interesting than that previous study showing executive function depression (big surprise) during what amounts to the comeup phase  would be longer period monitoring of sustained administration studying overall brain activation during concentrated cognitive tasks.  These aren't really possible during the comeup phase where little makes sense, but they're why I consistently consume mushrooms. :thumbup:

I'll stop dissing these researchers at this point, as what they're now showing is of some putative value, more in correspondence with my personal experience.

Quote:

We propose that psilocybin may be used in combination with cognitive strategies designed to reverse cognitive biases in depression – and we also suggest that it may be used in more classic dynamic therapy to assist the exploration and understanding of salient emotional themes.




So they're on one of the right tracks at least. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


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OfflineDeathcore
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18557827 - 07/14/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

if they show us ourselves then I'm a hellbound demon


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Offlinemorelhunter
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: Blind fool]
    #18558578 - 07/14/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Blind fool said:
The visual cortex is very interesting since it is actually divided into numerous major functioning units, each doing different visual signal processing to form the final visual scene that you as a person is seeing.






And this 'final visual scene' that we 'see' is located where?  If I interpret correctly, our brain produces this 'scene' (of which our body is a part) from the visual input. Therefore, when we look out at the world we are basically looking at the inside of our 'brain'. 

This debate then becomes more of a classic physics vs. quantum physics debate.


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OfflineDeathcore
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: morelhunter]
    #18558902 - 07/14/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

God


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OfflineTribalSkyGod
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: morelhunter]
    #18559008 - 07/14/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Asking what "actually" happens on shrooms says more about your historical, cultural and sociolinguistic paradigm than it does about the shrooms themselves. You're looking for an unquestionable ("true") narrative that describes the experience according to the deductional series of science and/or religion.

Primarily, it reflects a teleological, objectivist and logocentric philosophy. It implies that it is possible to narrate existence without the taint of perspective (and thus "describe" the effects without making unintentional assumptions), that this narrative is singular and that it is absolute.

This seems to me to be borne out of a gross misunderstanding of the nature of language. As far as I can tell, this began with written language, when the forms of words began taking a fixed form, and people began to speculate the words themselves apart from the context in which they were used. Thus, Socrates could ask "What does 'justice' mean?", but the reply given - a story about justice being served - would not satisfy him. He wanted an extra-contextual narrative of some extra-contextual "meaning" of justice, which he assumed was apart from its contextual meaning, rather than a instantaneous narration of the it in practice (I.E. teleological logocentric objectivism).

This is akin to looking at a boat and making judgments about the people on it. Sure, you can examine a luxury cruise and speculate that rich people use it, but that doesn't mean that someone can't fill that boat with poor people and send it on its way. One could see a fishing boat and automatically assume fishermen, but find it filled with millionaires instead.

Words are vessels in the same way - highly specialized vessels that allow us, as subjects in our own world, to share in the world of those around us. We load meaning onto words like one would load passengers onto a boat, and send it on its way to someone else, who then interprets that meaning.

Note that "meaning", in the purpose for which I use it, cannot be "wrong" since it is a pre-linguistic subjective experience. It can be regularized erratically - structured into word-vessels which, when interpreted by another, will correlate to a completely different experience - as well as fabricated when one creates a narrative without having the experience (a lie), but it cannot be inherently "wrong".

While there is a conventionally correct way to use these word-vessels in any given language, there are many instances where convention is broken without it being simply "wrong". Metaphors, connotations, sarcasm are examples of where this convention is broken - the "wrong" people are loaded onto the boat - to convey a meaning which may not otherwise be possible, practical or even desirable.

The logocentrism in Western cultures is characterized by the tendency to assume that words have singular, universal meanings - that the boat always carries the same people. Historically, formal semantics was born from this assumption, and thus the idea of a universally "true" narrative. This was picked up by Christianity, and used to bring it to prestige and power. Much later, maybe in the mid-1700's, its focus shifted towards the growing pragmatic narrative of Science, which lead not only to great technological progress (the "positive", perhaps) but also to a type of absolutism intended to tear the world apart into irreducible, fundamental units of extra-contextual meaning which can then be "believed" (and thus, pushed) as a religious "truth" (thus, propagating the same ideological imperialism that was instated by the Church - the ongoing colonialism in "education").

Note that Science was never seen as "true" before this. From the mathematical sophistication of the old Arabic world, right through Newton and Galileo's time, it was seen just as a useful way to see the world in order to make it do what you want. There was not "truth" value in it beyond the cleverness of an invention.

So, back to OP's question. What are shrooms "actually" doing? Nothing. Everything. Something in between. Catalyzing a reaction between your mind and itself. Opening your third eye. Introducing you to the god within you.
You can say an infinite number of things about the experience, and they would all be "true" in that they will be a narrative of your subjective experience (assuming, of course, that you didn't decide to lie for some reason).
As McKenna said, the exact experience involves the breaking down of the cultural mechanism which you use to assign meaning to word-vessels. To "describe" the experience is a contradiction (even if often quite useful for the purpose of introspect).

As for a scientific explanation of the effects of mushrooms, you can say that the active tryptamines are activating 5-HT2 receptors in the central nervous system, which are causing erratic bioelectric neural cascades, causing perception to be altered in various ways.
While this would be a useful narrative to a neurochemist in order for him to create a new similar drug, it does even more poorly than the narratives above in actually broadcasting the experience itself.

tl;dr Asking what shrooms "actually" do is a question produced by a historical, sociolinguistic and philosophical context, and any answer is practically arbitrary in terms of actually explaining the experience.

No hypocrisy - not putting this forward as truth, just as my take on the whole thing.


--------------------


So crucify the Ego, before it's far too late
And leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical
And we will come to find that we are all one mind
Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable
So let the light touch you, and let the words spill through,
And let the path ride through, bringing out our hope and reason


"The best psychedelic explorers are people who realise that even the truths they see on a trip are not "truths", but new models, new "what if's?", alternative frames."
-Douglas Rushkoff


Edited by TribalSkyGod (07/14/13 08:02 PM)


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Offlineurbannerd
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Re: The truth behind the effects of mushrooms. [Re: TribalSkyGod]
    #18559101 - 07/14/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TribalSkyGod said:
So, back to OP's question. What are shrooms "actually" doing? Nothing. Everything. Something in between. Catalyzing a reaction between your mind and itself. Opening your third eye. Introducing you to the god within you.
You can say an infinite number of things about the experience, and they would all be "true" in that they will be a narrative of your subjective experience (assuming, of course, that you didn't decide to lie for some reason).
As McKenna said, the exact experience involves the breaking down of the cultural mechanism which you use to assign meaning to word-vessels. To "describe" the experience is a contradiction (even if often quite useful for the purpose of introspect).

As for a scientific explanation of the effects of mushrooms, you can say that the active tryptamines are activating 5-HT2 receptors in the central nervous system, which are causing erratic bioelectric neural cascades, causing perception to be altered in various ways.
While this would be a useful narrative to a neurochemist in order for him to create a new similar drug, it does even more poorly than the narratives above in actually broadcasting the experience itself.

tl;dr Asking what shrooms "actually" do is a question produced by a historical, sociolinguistic and philosophical context, and any answer is practically arbitrary in terms of actually explaining the experience.

No hypocrisy - not putting this forward as truth, just as my take on the whole thing.




only part worth reading for anyone else that skipped the long post.
all i read was something about words and boats.


--------------------
Soaking in the energy of the universe since '91


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