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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds
    #18549768 - 07/12/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

PHARMA & HEALTHCARE | 7/10/2013 @ 1:13PM |4,081 views
Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds

The infamous drug bath salts – a.k.a. the cannibal zombie drug that rose to notoriety last summer after the “cannibal attack” – now has some even stronger evidence to its mighty addictiveness. A new study finds that the active ingredient in the drug trumps even the most addictive substances we know, namely methamphetamine. The study, using rats who became hooked on the bath salt compound MDPV (3,4-methylenedioxypyrovalerone) worked a lot – that is, a lot – harder to gain access to it than they did for the meth. They also acted out the stereotypic, repetitive behaviors that look a lot like the kinds of things people do when they’re high on the drugs. The trick, say the researchers who headed the study, is for them to stay ahead of the underground labs that develop the drugs, since they tend to evolve quickly to evade the laws that try, in varying degrees of success, to end them.

The team from Scripps Research Institute “taught” rats to get addicted to either MDPV or meth by simply allowing them to self-administer the compounds by pressing a lever to get the goods delivered intravenously. Rats are easily “addictable,” as humans are, so they make a good model system to study the behavioral and neurologic effects of these drugs. Here, the researchers could get an idea of how much the rats craved the drugs by extending the number of lever presses required to gain access. And what they found was pretty telling.
“When we increased how many lever presses a rat would have to emit to get an additional infusion of drug, we observed that rats emitted about 60 presses on average for a dose of METH but up to about 600 for MDPV—some rats would even emit 3,000 lever presses for a single hit of MDPV,” said study author Shawn M. Aarde. “If you consider these lever presses a measure of how much a rat will work to get a drug infusion, then these rats worked more than 10 times harder to get MDPV.”
The other telltale behavior the researchers saw in the rats, which was so similar to bath-salt-addicted humans, was massive stereotypy – the repetitive behaviors that don’t seem have any goal but continue regardless. “One stereotyped behavior that we often observed was a rat repeatedly licking the clear plastic walls of its operant chamber—a behavior that was sometimes uninterruptable,” said Aarde. “One could say MDPV turned some rats into ‘window lickers’ of a sort.” This kind of behavior, the authors point out, is similar to the “tooth-grinding and compulsive skin-picking” seen in people who are on bath salts or meth.

Bath salts are derived in the lab from cathinone, the active ingredient in khat, a plant from northeast Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, which is often chewed for its psychostimulant effects. It’s also banned in the U.S., since cathinone is a Schedule 1 controlled substance. The drug easily crosses the blood-brain barrier, and elicits its neurologic effects by preventing removal of the neurotransmitters dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) from the synapse, which makes for a whole lot of feel-good chemicals laying around your brain for longer. The problem is, as always, that tolerance sets in, whereby you need more and more of the drug to have the same effect.

And, of course, the drugs brings along a host of negative symptoms, which include paranoia, increased activity, lack of sleep, reduced drive for food and water, violence, and suicide. Near irresistible cravings for more of the drug are the other result of taking them.

One of the major problems, among many, with synthetic drugs is the rapidity with which they can “evolve” or be reformulated, since they’re created in the lab. The trick for researchers is to stay a few steps ahead of the drug formulators by predicting the most likely future iterations of the compound. “We’d like the ability to predict, for example, which ones have the highest abuse potential, which are more likely to have long-term toxicity issues, and which carry high risks of acute lethal consequences,” said Taffe. Long term studies in animals are next on the team’s agenda. Unfortunately, adds Taffe, though they’re relatively new as recreational drugs go, “MDPV looks like it’s going to stick around as a recreational stimulant, because it is so potent.” We’ll see what becomes of these drugs, and how they, and their next generations, will evolve in the future.


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18549829 - 07/12/13 05:23 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

What has science done!!!!!!


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I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund

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Offlinejoshisstoned
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Heffy]
    #18549887 - 07/12/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Science is great!

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: joshisstoned]
    #18549894 - 07/12/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

joshisstoned said:
Science is great!



Your hypothesis is unprovable with science!!!!


:jimmies:


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #18549997 - 07/12/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder if the rats crave the MDPV in a nice environment, not locked alone in a dark cage.
Probably not.


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Stand up. You're not alone.

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Offlinedokunai
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #18550004 - 07/12/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A new study finds that the active ingredient in the drug trumps even the most addictive substances we know, namely methamphetamine.




I do not agree with this assesment.  Sure, stims can be very psychologically addictive, but so can food, gambling, etc.  Most addictive substances?  Try alcohol, nicotine, opiates, benzos...

Also, considering the design of this experiment, it doesn't sound like the rats may have had any alternative to pressing a lever.  I bet any of us would also press a lever thousands of times to get a bit of drugs when locked in a tiny cage with a lever and a water bottle.

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Offlinefunkerdslr
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: dokunai]
    #18550048 - 07/12/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

:havesomescience:


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RIP Alice

<3 Chinacat72 <3

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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: dokunai]
    #18550093 - 07/12/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dokunai said:
Quote:

A new study finds that the active ingredient in the drug trumps even the most addictive substances we know, namely methamphetamine.




I do not agree with this assesment.  Sure, stims can be very psychologically addictive, but so can food, gambling, etc.  Most addictive substances?  Try alcohol, nicotine, opiates, benzos...

Also, considering the design of this experiment, it doesn't sound like the rats may have had any alternative to pressing a lever.  I bet any of us would also press a lever thousands of times to get a bit of drugs when locked in a tiny cage with a lever and a water bottle.







You do have a point about the parameters of the  study and living conditions. However, MDPV is actually the most addictive, habitual drug I've ever seen in my life. I don't have much experience with meth, but it absolutely rivals and probably beats crack.

Funny, reading about the rats working harder, I was picturing the end of a binge.


If you've ever seen the end of a really bad crack binge, users will often comb the floors for a little bit, searching for rock they might have dropped, occasionally mistakenly smoking a piece of plaster from the wall, etc...  This usually doesn't go on for too long before they realize it's futile and give up.

The end of a long MDPV binge can get worse. If you're really bad with the pv (and / or have self control issues) you will spend considerably longer looking for MDPV residue. I've seen someone search for literally hours for something dropped / misplaced. I've seen someone wash down all their smoking equipment with acetone and evaporate, in the hopes of just one more hit.


It is devilishly, fiendishly moreish. I don't believe for a second that this study is false propaganda (though it may be used as such.)  Shit lights up your dopamine like nothing else-- especially with "harder" ROAs, and it can be very difficult to stop while you still have material left. Because this stuff, just a few years ago was very much legal, and way cheaper than drugs like meth, we have seen what happens when people have massive supplies of this stuff. And some people will stay up literally for weeks on end, no problem.


I know one dude whose word I trust, who alleges his last bad run with MDPV (around 40 grams) lasted over 2 full months, with very little sleep, very little food, and near constant use. Shit is no joke.


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Offlinedokunai
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18550193 - 07/12/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

dokunai said:
Quote:

A new study finds that the active ingredient in the drug trumps even the most addictive substances we know, namely methamphetamine.




I do not agree with this assesment.  Sure, stims can be very psychologically addictive, but so can food, gambling, etc.  Most addictive substances?  Try alcohol, nicotine, opiates, benzos...

Also, considering the design of this experiment, it doesn't sound like the rats may have had any alternative to pressing a lever.  I bet any of us would also press a lever thousands of times to get a bit of drugs when locked in a tiny cage with a lever and a water bottle.







You do have a point about the parameters of the  study and living conditions. However, MDPV is actually the most addictive, habitual drug I've ever seen in my life. I don't have much experience with meth, but it absolutely rivals and probably beats crack.

Funny, reading about the rats working harder, I was picturing the end of a binge.


If you've ever seen the end of a really bad crack binge, users will often comb the floors for a little bit, searching for rock they might have dropped, occasionally mistakenly smoking a piece of plaster from the wall, etc...  This usually doesn't go on for too long before they realize it's futile and give up.

The end of a long MDPV binge can get worse. If you're really bad with the pv (and / or have self control issues) you will spend considerably longer looking for MDPV residue. I've seen someone search for literally hours for something dropped / misplaced. I've seen someone wash down all their smoking equipment with acetone and evaporate, in the hopes of just one more hit.


It is devilishly, fiendishly moreish. I don't believe for a second that this study is false propaganda (though it may be used as such.)  Shit lights up your dopamine like nothing else-- especially with "harder" ROAs, and it can be very difficult to stop while you still have material left. Because this stuff, just a few years ago was very much legal, and way cheaper than drugs like meth, we have seen what happens when people have massive supplies of this stuff. And some people will stay up literally for weeks on end, no problem.


I know one dude whose word I trust, who alleges his last bad run with MDPV (around 40 grams) lasted over 2 full months, with very little sleep, very little food, and near constant use. Shit is no joke.




I've been through stim withdrawal for coke, meth, amps, etc.  A few days of feeling tired or like shit?  LOL.  When I quit my insane alprazolam habit, it took me almost a year to get over it.  I'm sorry... stim addicts are fucking pussies.  Try a year of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome.  Try being wracked with seizures or feeling like you can't relax or fall asleep without electric shocks running through your limbs for a year.  Sorry, but your buddy's stim cravings aren't quite in the same class IMO.  I've quite coke and quit meth and quit prescribed amphetamines.  Those will never, ever compare to the misery of quitting benzos or opiates.

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OfflineBigPharma
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: dokunai]
    #18550227 - 07/12/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Rats actually WON'T press the lever if they don't find it reinforcing.  They're only in the boxes for a short time to conduct data collection and they spend the rest of their time in their home cages, which also aren't dark unless its their night-time.  They also have full access to food and water in their home-cages.  And yes, the rats also do "crave" drugs they're "addicted" to, this can be measured by what's called reinstatement behavior, and can be manipulated in a multitude of ways.  these progressive ratio self-administration studies are actually a rather valuable means of assessing compulsive self-administration of a drug, from which you can infer addictability, or rather propensity to re-dose despite increasing punishment or difficulty for doing so.


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"There are no differences, but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference."
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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: dokunai]
    #18550256 - 07/12/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I think benzos and opiates have more withdrawal when quitting but what this study is really showing is that MDPV forms a much stronger and faster compulsion to continue using . So it might be harder to quit Xanax than MDPV once you are addicted, but you will get hooked WAY faster on MDPV than Xanax.

Many people can take 1 Xanax a day indefinitely as part of a prescription or whatever without to much trouble, but from the sounds of it doing just one dose of MDPV would be pretty hard, there is a much faster and stronger urge to redose.

So there is sort of two different definitions of addictive. Xanax wins in terms of how hard it is to quit once addicted, but MDPV wins in terms of how quickly you get addicted in the first place .


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Lord_McLovin] * 1
    #18550411 - 07/12/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lord_McLovin said:
I wonder if the rats crave the MDPV in a nice environment, not locked alone in a dark cage.
Probably not.




If they're addicted, they're addicted. Doesn't matter where they are.


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550416 - 07/12/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with these chemicals is not the chemicals themselves, it's irresponsible usage.

Poly-drug addicts are the super heroes of our day.

The human body deserves all the credit, actually.

Science Vs Science. science wins all the time.

Oh dear i seem to be rambling. Anyway, this article is cool and i can't wait to take a nice warm bath with my salty goodies.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18550437 - 07/12/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

"The problem with these chemicals is not the chemicals themselves, it's irresponsible usage. "

I totally disagree (respectfully) with this point of view. In my opinion some chemicals are so high risk that there is no such thing as responsible use (any use of them is ipso facto irresponsible).

Responsible use of MDPV seems to me to be a contradiction in terms , like responsible drunk driving or responsible Russian roulette.


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550450 - 07/12/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

i'd love to see a list of drugs which can be responsibly used and drugs which cannot.

I respect your opinion and shy away from uppers in general so this is not a big issue with me but i defend peoples right to use any substance including bullets to the head. Russian roulette is fine with me if you do it in a bullet proof box or far from others.

:shrug:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18550611 - 07/12/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I can give you a list but it would only be my own subjective opinion.

Here it is:

Drugs that cannot be responsibly used :

Meth
Crack
IV heroin
MDPV
Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue)
Krokodil
Datura
Cigarettes/tobacco (except for strictly ceremonial purposes)

Basically everything else can be used responsibly by some .

Again , just my own personal list of drugs no one should even try.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550622 - 07/12/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I've tried all of those besides krokodil and I don't use any of them anymore besides cigs lol. It was easy to quit them cuz I never binged on any of them though, well meth, but for no more than like a day and a half.


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550644 - 07/12/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

one change i would make is removing krokodil and heroin and replacing them with "IV opiates"


not a bad list. :lahey:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18550653 - 07/12/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah agreed


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Eminence]
    #18550656 - 07/12/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Good job not doing that stuff anymore frylock! :thumbup:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Offlineorison
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550682 - 07/12/13 08:58 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Drugs that cannot be responsibly used :

Meth
Crack
IV heroin
MDPV
Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue)
Krokodil
Datura
Cigarettes/tobacco (except for strictly ceremonial purposes)


:notsureif:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: orison]
    #18550698 - 07/12/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Don't get squirrelly with me


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Invisiblegreencrush420
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550739 - 07/12/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

My list would probably be:
Meth
Crack
Cocaine
Heroin, Oxy, etc. (basically all derivatives of the poppy plant)
MDPV
Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue, etc.)
Krokodil
Sisa (Just learned about this a while back. Quite the epidemic in Greece.)
Basically, I stick to weed, and what I consider to be entheogens (such as shrooms, mescaline, etc.). The most profound experience I've ever had was on DXM though. Balk at it if you wish, I still consider it useful.
I left tobacco off because I have never had a problem with it. I can smoke a pack of bugler and then not smoke for months, no problem, and I also like to smoke hookah from time to time. This is just a personal list of drugs I will never do, I'm not judging anyone else for their choice of drugs.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: greencrush420]
    #18550793 - 07/12/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Never heard of Sida before ! Searching it now. I Wikipediad it but I'm not clear on how Sisa is different from meth


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Invisiblegreencrush420
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18550826 - 07/12/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

It is supposed to be a preparation of some sort of meth cut with battery acid, but they don't really know yet. I think the life expectancy of addicts is a few months. Literally eats them away, as you would expect, considering they're smoking battery acid.

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Invisiblegreencrush420
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: greencrush420]
    #18550836 - 07/12/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Vice did a two art documentary on it a while back. It was posted here on SNS.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: greencrush420]
    #18550847 - 07/12/13 09:52 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Cool I'm going to watch that tonight. Sounds like Sisa is to meth what krokodil is to heroin


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #18551502 - 07/13/13 01:59 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lord_McLovin said:
I wonder if the rats crave the MDPV in a nice environment, not locked alone in a dark cage.
Probably not.




thats actually a study they did with heroin and your hypothesis is more then accurate

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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: orison]
    #18551512 - 07/13/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

orison319 said:
Quote:

Drugs that cannot be responsibly used :

Meth
Crack
IV heroin
MDPV
Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue)
Krokodil
Datura
Cigarettes/tobacco (except for strictly ceremonial purposes)


:notsureif:




That's bullshit you could do any drug you want at a safe lab tested level, cigarettes just prove your case wrong as 1 drop of pure nicotine would drop an elephant. Plus I'd take a cocaine concoction over a cup of coffee any day.

Also you guys say weed is safe but a lot of the shit your smoking is probably covered in unnatural pesticides/fertilizer.:rolleyes:

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OfflineBoston666
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Konyap]
    #18551522 - 07/13/13 02:06 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

No matter ho hard the DEA try to ban any certain chemical substance they will make another similar one that will get you just as high if not higher. I also think Synthetics are disgusting and Id rather jack off than use a scientifically made piece of shit drug.

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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Boston666]
    #18551535 - 07/13/13 02:08 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

The thing is though the law is YOU CAN NOT SELL A DRUG THAT MIMICS ANOTHER SCHEDULED DRUG OR LABEL IT AS THAT DRUG.

So they have to sell them as bath salts or incense or such.

Just capping it to remind anyone.

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OfflineMrMunchies
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #18551687 - 07/13/13 03:57 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lord_McLovin said:
I wonder if the rats crave the MDPV in a nice environment, not locked alone in a dark cage.
Probably not.




Of course if you lock something in a small environment, close it in, make it FEEL as though it has NOTHING, then you give it SOMETHING, a little glimpse, OF COURSE it will go after it again and again.

Is this what has happened society?


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: MrMunchies]
    #18551698 - 07/13/13 04:00 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Of course it is people didn't start getting massively addicted to exotic drugs until there was a drug war to make everything a hot commodity.

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Boston666]
    #18552263 - 07/13/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Boston666 said:
. I also think Synthetics are disgusting and Id rather jack off than use a scientifically made piece of shit drug.



:ilold:


yes, dam those scientists and their high levels of purity.:rolleyes:


jacking off on bathsalts is the best.

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Konyap]
    #18552376 - 07/13/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

"you guys say weed is safe but a lot of the shit your smoking is probably covered in unnatural pesticides/fertilizer."

Use a vaporizer people! Its worth it.

The thing about the rat not using drugs in a cage is totally true, they would use the levelrless if they had a stimulating environment to explore.

However, the point is to compare how they press the lever compared to other drugs. So if you have two rats , both in a dark cage alone (not sure the actual conditions in the experiment but lets say) and one rat's level administers meth and another heroin and another MDPV, all the rats will use the levers, but they will use them at different rates of intensity, and the rat who uses it with the most intensity probably is being given the most addictive drug.

So yeah the rats would use the lever less, maybe even not at all, if they had a different environment, but that doesnt change the finding of the study that MDPV is more addictive to rats who do press the lever than other drugs.


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: dokunai]
    #18552439 - 07/13/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dokunai said:
I've been through stim withdrawal for coke, meth, amps, etc.  A few days of feeling tired or like shit?  LOL.  When I quit my insane alprazolam habit, it took me almost a year to get over it.  I'm sorry... stim addicts are fucking pussies.  Try a year of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome.  Try being wracked with seizures or feeling like you can't relax or fall asleep without electric shocks running through your limbs for a year.  Sorry, but your buddy's stim cravings aren't quite in the same class IMO.  I've quite coke and quit meth and quit prescribed amphetamines.  Those will never, ever compare to the misery of quitting benzos or opiates.







Brilliant response.


PS-- That was sarcastic as fuck.


Seems like eating benzos like candy has fried your ability to comprehend what you read and make relevant, intelligent comments.


I'm well aware that benzo withdrawal is among the most difficult and dangerous for any drug. No one is disputing that. However, as moonshoe correctly points out, that's not what we're talking about here at all. We're talking about a drug being so reinforcing when you dose, that you want to chronically re-dose until you run out. And that tends to happen far more with strong stimulants that have a huge effect on dopamine, than any other drugs. (I think the shorter half-life of most stimulants is a factor in this as well.)  I'm an opiate addict-- I know damn well that the withdrawal from opiates is, in many ways more brutal than any stimulant withdrawal. As far as symptoms go, hardcore stimulant withdrawal is a considerably more "mild" phenomenon.


However, your post is still very retardedly assumptive in that regard. You assume that MDPV is just like the stimulants you mentioned. And as this study's results indicated-- MDPV may be at least "10 times worse." I too have been through the very mild withdrawal that crack has to offer. It is a walk in the park compared to MDPV. Both in terms of stopping yourself from re-dosing, and in terms of the aftermath.


That "friend" I mentioned before? He still doesn't feel quite 100% "normal" from his last MDPV experience-- in the fall of 2011.  Stopping a 2+ month long MDPV binge is not like stopping a couple days on coke, or a week on meth. Even after you start sleeping again, the paranoid hallucinations and delusional thinking can persist for days or weeks. The anhedonia and the depression-- the complete lack of pleasure from any normal source of pleasure-- food, sex, etc, can last for months as  your brain tries to re-regulate itself. Even after looking back, years later, with much shame and embarrassment over your behavior during that period, and what you came to... thinking of how your family had started to fear for your safety... watched you waste away to a skeleton... all afraid for your safety and mourning you as if you were already dead.... and you knew just how right they were.... you still crave a fucking hit.


Back to benzos, and the original topic-- benzos aren't even all that immediately reinforcing in the same way that heavy stimulants are. Not even as much as opiates are (which are IMHO still less immediately reinforcing.)  If you chronically re-dose benzos, knowing that they're very addictive and the withdrawal is dangerous, that indicates a possible severe issue with self-control or impulsive actions. And if you can't control that, MDPV would chew you up and spit you out.


As far as I know (and I could be wrong about this) but benzo withdrawal isn't nearly as bad if you taper off very slowly and carefully. It's still not fun. IMHO opiates are worse (in terms of the difficulty of stepping down your dose, and how you feel.)  Then again, I've only tapered from benzos once-- and I did it very slowly, and carefully. :shrug:


So come back when you can binge on PV for a couple months straight and not lose your shit and kill yourself. Then I'll listen to your claims of how much it's "pussy shit."


Also next time, please do think a little more carefully, and try to comprehend just a tiny bit harder before you jump into a thread and say "nuh uh, that's not true" thinking you're on topic, when you're talking about something completely different. I was careful to mention addictive and "habit forming" aka habitual aka "reinforcing" aka chronic re-dosing, aka compulsive, .... which is only one half of addiction-- the half we were talking about here (though as I stated above, you were somehow assumptively, astoundingly wrong about the other half, as well, merely less so)


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18552661 - 07/13/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote: "The infamous drug bath salts – a.k.a. the cannibal zombie drug that rose to notoriety last summer after the “cannibal attack” 

This disinformation still pisses me off:mad:


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18552814 - 07/13/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

dokunai said:
Quote:

A new study finds that the active ingredient in the drug trumps even the most addictive substances we know, namely methamphetamine.




I do not agree with this assesment.  Sure, stims can be very psychologically addictive, but so can food, gambling, etc.  Most addictive substances?  Try alcohol, nicotine, opiates, benzos...

Also, considering the design of this experiment, it doesn't sound like the rats may have had any alternative to pressing a lever.  I bet any of us would also press a lever thousands of times to get a bit of drugs when locked in a tiny cage with a lever and a water bottle.







You do have a point about the parameters of the  study and living conditions. However, MDPV is actually the most addictive, habitual drug I've ever seen in my life. I don't have much experience with meth, but it absolutely rivals and probably beats crack.

Funny, reading about the rats working harder, I was picturing the end of a binge.


If you've ever seen the end of a really bad crack binge, users will often comb the floors for a little bit, searching for rock they might have dropped, occasionally mistakenly smoking a piece of plaster from the wall, etc...  This usually doesn't go on for too long before they realize it's futile and give up.

The end of a long MDPV binge can get worse. If you're really bad with the pv (and / or have self control issues) you will spend considerably longer looking for MDPV residue. I've seen someone search for literally hours for something dropped / misplaced. I've seen someone wash down all their smoking equipment with acetone and evaporate, in the hopes of just one more hit.


It is devilishly, fiendishly moreish. I don't believe for a second that this study is false propaganda (though it may be used as such.)  Shit lights up your dopamine like nothing else-- especially with "harder" ROAs, and it can be very difficult to stop while you still have material left. Because this stuff, just a few years ago was very much legal, and way cheaper than drugs like meth, we have seen what happens when people have massive supplies of this stuff. And some people will stay up literally for weeks on end, no problem.


I know one dude whose word I trust, who alleges his last bad run with MDPV (around 40 grams) lasted over 2 full months, with very little sleep, very little food, and near constant use. Shit is no joke.



Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

dokunai said:
Quote:

A new study finds that the active ingredient in the drug trumps even the most addictive substances we know, namely methamphetamine.




I do not agree with this assesment.  Sure, stims can be very psychologically addictive, but so can food, gambling, etc.  Most addictive substances?  Try alcohol, nicotine, opiates, benzos...

Also, considering the design of this experiment, it doesn't sound like the rats may have had any alternative to pressing a lever.  I bet any of us would also press a lever thousands of times to get a bit of drugs when locked in a tiny cage with a lever and a water bottle.







You do have a point about the parameters of the  study and living conditions. However, MDPV is actually the most addictive, habitual drug I've ever seen in my life. I don't have much experience with meth, but it absolutely rivals and probably beats crack.

Funny, reading about the rats working harder, I was picturing the end of a binge.


If you've ever seen the end of a really bad crack binge, users will often comb the floors for a little bit, searching for rock they might have dropped, occasionally mistakenly smoking a piece of plaster from the wall, etc...  This usually doesn't go on for too long before they realize it's futile and give up.

The end of a long MDPV binge can get worse. If you're really bad with the pv (and / or have self control issues) you will spend considerably longer looking for MDPV residue. I've seen someone search for literally hours for something dropped / misplaced. I've seen someone wash down all their smoking equipment with acetone and evaporate, in the hopes of just one more hit.


It is devilishly, fiendishly moreish. I don't believe for a second that this study is false propaganda (though it may be used as such.)  Shit lights up your dopamine like nothing else-- especially with "harder" ROAs, and it can be very difficult to stop while you still have material left. Because this stuff, just a few years ago was very much legal, and way cheaper than drugs like meth, we have seen what happens when people have massive supplies of this stuff. And some people will stay up literally for weeks on end, no problem.


I know one dude whose word I trust, who alleges his last bad run with MDPV (around 40 grams) lasted over 2 full months, with very little sleep, very little food, and near constant use. Shit is no joke.




i agree dopamine agonists and reuptake inhibitors  are extremely addicting since first use.
the withdrawl is less of an incentive than with drugs such as opioids and alcohol
harder to have the energy to search for drugs when you used all the energy your body had in the last two months  from speed,  haven't eat or slept


when i did amphetamines i would start and not stop until i was out. then sleep and eat for 2-5 days generally    then return to amphetamines


so has anyone measured the difference in effective  dopamine reuptake relative to amount of peripheral effects and dosage      compared to parallel statistics for methamphetamine?

drug addiction is a multifaceted phenomena for the human organism, clinical and animal testing should include information on these facets  and come with a clear definition of "addiction" when conducting these experiments.

cravings, withdrawal, tolerence, availability, usual method of ingestion, time to cross blood brain barrier,  dosage, lethal dosage    etc all play a roll


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: jebre]
    #18553086 - 07/13/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

having been addicted to various substances, i'd say all of them are equally taxing on my "sanity" over the long term but amphetamines and dissociatives are most taxing short term(on my mental stability).

THAT BEING SAID, due to the progression of my addiction as well as external factors like social and legal pressure, i have become increasingly "guilty" and "not normal" feeling no matter what substance i use. My point?  ALL drugs now make me experience a sort of "withdrawl from non-sobriety", to speak abstractly.

IMO,withdrawal(physical or otherwise), in the LITERAL sense of the word, is most intense- anxiety wise -with benzos and alcohol.

PAIN wise; with opiates(no questions asked) but at the same time the axiety in my op8 w/d is nearly as bad as with the formerly mentioned two substances.

Dissociatives are very addicting and luckily i cant give my two cents on any detectable withdrawl that i've felt. I mentioned that they were taxing on my "sanity" but really that's just a label which holds no ground in my reality, once i sober up i return to baseline as with most drugs.

The reason i tend to rant against amphetamines is not because i don't like them, it's because they can literally CAUSE psychosis lasting longer than the drug.

I am aware that this is ALSO the case with psychedelics but i have had enough face melting moments to know that psychs and i get along just fine. I don't mean to group together so many drugs when i say psychedelics. ALL drugs are psychedelic to me if i take the word literally but in this case i mean Mush, deemsters and other NON-addicting spaceships.

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Konyap]
    #18553265 - 07/13/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

aiyobro said:
Quote:

orison319 said:
Quote:

Drugs that cannot be responsibly used :

Meth
Crack
IV heroin
MDPV
Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue)
Krokodil
Datura
Cigarettes/tobacco (except for strictly ceremonial purposes)


:notsureif:




That's bullshit you could do any drug you want at a safe lab tested level, cigarettes just prove your case wrong as 1 drop of pure nicotine would drop an elephant. Plus I'd take a cocaine concoction over a cup of coffee any day.

Also you guys say weed is safe but a lot of the shit your smoking is probably covered in unnatural pesticides/fertilizer.:rolleyes:



I grow my own Cannabis, and mix my own organic soil using Sphagnum peat moss, humus, lime, rock dust, perlite, and an all organic tomato fertilizer. Works like a charm.  :bigblunt: Even if I didn't do this, your point is moot. Weed is safer than Cocaine, Crack, Heroin, Meth, etc., this is a fact.

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18553526 - 07/13/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
"The problem with these chemicals is not the chemicals themselves, it's irresponsible usage. "

I totally disagree (respectfully) with this point of view. In my opinion some chemicals are so high risk that there is no such thing as responsible use (any use of them is ipso facto irresponsible).

Responsible use of MDPV seems to me to be a contradiction in terms , like responsible drunk driving or responsible Russian roulette.




Sure, some psychoactive chemicals are generally riskier than others, and if the ultimate goal of your life is to just be "responsible", then yes, you should probably avoid this category altogether.  However, I've found far greater rewards from occasionally daring to stray into so-called irresponsibility.  Wishing to extend one's lifespan in a healthy way is an admirable goal, but your emphasis on safety, security and avoidance of any behavior that might be considered toxic seems ultimately rooted in fear (re: death anxiety) and although such a lifestyle may be a useful foundation upon which to build one's practice, IMO one must sometimes ultimately stray from one's comfort zone in order to experience that which is truly meaningful.


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: deCypher]
    #18553747 - 07/13/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Personally, if I could do any drug without harming loved ones, putting my family through an emotionally traumatic ordeal, or loosing precious time with them, I might be open to trying some of the substances that are on my "never do" list. However, I put the happiness, safety, and wellbeing of my loved ones before my own desire to try different drugs. I would rather put food on the table for them, and a roof over their head than blow money on a drug addiction. I would rather be the families rock, than a weak link. It's all about life circumstances and perspective, and what is okay for one may not be okay for another. I personally am not willing to stray, because, in my opinion, the risks are greater than the rewards. I consider time with my family more meaningful than time with heroin or meth. It's not really about self preservation for me, at least not for my own sake, but for the sake of others that I care deeply for.

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: greencrush420]
    #18554686 - 07/13/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

MDPV is definitely more addictive than Methamphetamine.

I like this study.


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18555800 - 07/14/13 02:44 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I'm glad that MDPV is illegal. I look forward to the day the massive amount of neuronal death caused by 25i-nbome is proven to be true and it becomes illegalized as well.



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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Sheekle] * 4
    #18556153 - 07/14/13 07:01 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Fuck you for supporting drug prohibition and throwing your fellow psychonauts into prison just for using a different chemical than you.  :thumbdown:


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: deCypher]
    #18557201 - 07/14/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

:rail2:

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Konyap]
    #18557353 - 07/14/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

:aliendance:

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18559103 - 07/14/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Lots of you on here seems to forget lots of thing posted in the news not long ago...

Lots of bias in this thread

Maybe Carl Hart can help you a bit, month old article, because I'm too lazy tonight to create some more debate.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/carl_hart_drugs_dont_turn_people_into_criminals_partner/

:shrug:


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---

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---

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Simplepowa] * 1
    #18559513 - 07/14/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I read your post and looked at the article you linked but it is not clear to me what you are trying to say or imply, or why it is relevant to this thread.


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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18560556 - 07/15/13 04:45 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I can give you a list but it would only be my own subjective opinion.

Here it is:

Drugs that cannot be responsibly used :

Meth
Crack
IV heroin
MDPV
Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue)
Krokodil
Datura
Cigarettes/tobacco (except for strictly ceremonial purposes)

Basically everything else can be used responsibly by some .

Again , just my own personal list of drugs no one should even try.




My point: this kind of list is pointless.

Why?

Quote:

There are multiple false conclusions. There is a belief, for example, that crack cocaine is so addictive it only took one hit to get hooked, and that it is impossible to use heroin without becoming addicted. There was another belief that methamphetamine users are cognitively impaired. All of these are myths that have have been perpetuated primarily by law enforcement, and law enforcement deals with a limited, select group of people—people who are, in many cases, behaving badly. But to generalize that to all drug users is not only shortsighted and naive, it’s also irresponsible.




Saying that all these drug CAN'T be used responsibly is quite a hard statement.

Quote:

That’s exactly right. It’s that if you don’t contextualize what is happening with drugs in the country you might get the impression that drugs are so bad they’re causing all these people to go to jail: “Let’s find out how drugs are exerting these awful effects.” Now, you have just completely disregarded context in which all of these things occur, and that is what has happened in science. If you don’t fully appreciate the context, and you think that drug users are awful, then you don’t think about how a person takes care of their kid, takes care of their family, goes to work, but they also use drugs. If you don’t think about all of those contextual factors, you limit the picture and that’s what we’ve done.




There is always a context for why people will become reckless with their drug usage.

Quote:

The pharmalogical effects of drugs rarely lead to crime, but the public conflates these issues regardless. If we were going to look at how pharmalogical drugs influence crime, we should probably look at alcohol. We know sometimes people get unruly when they drink, but the vast majority of people don’t. Certainly, we have given thousands of doses of crack cocaine and methamphetamine to people in our lab, and never had any problems with violence or anything like that. That tells you it’s not the pharmacology of the drug, but some interaction with the environment or environmental conditions, that would probably happen without the drug.




In your list, you forgot ethanol... So much people CAN'T use it responsibly. But you seem to pass right beside it. :shrug: I would still let people use it if they want, who am I to decide what people can't or can ingest to alter their mind after all.

Plus, sometimes the context in what a person will decide to start using heroin or cocaine is not for the best of his interest. You hit hard bottom, you want to feel good, etc., you start using "hard drugs" but you are already in a state of mind prone to addiction. So you become more easily addicted. People usually don't want to use heroin for fun because it is viewed as this evil drug that destroy life...

Quote:

Given the large percentage of people who are not addicted and try these drugs, it’s something other than the pharmacology of the drugs that’s causing addiction. We find that 85% of the people, for example, who use cocaine are not addicted, even though they use the same cosmetological substance as those who are.




So only about 15% of people can't really use cocaine in a responsible manner. Saying that this drug cannot be used responsibly is still not true then.

---

I could go on and on and on...

Lots of bias in this thread like I said.

p.s.: All quotes (but the first one) are from www.salon.com/2013/06/17/carl_hart_drugs_dont_turn_people_into_criminals_partner/


--------------------
Carl Sagan - "Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people."

---

Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."

---

Brian Cox - "[One] problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense."

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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18560813 - 07/15/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I find it very ignorant of you to divide drugs into two lists (good and bad, illegal and legal, etc.), especially when you are an illegal drug user yourself, moonshoe.
Whether a drug is used responsibly or irresponsibly depends a lot on the person and you should thus not generalize too easily.
Nonetheless, it is true that users of potent opioids and potent stimulants are more at risk of becoming addicted to their drug of choice than, say for example, users of psychedelics. Yet there is no direct implication!
I, personally, do not want to take that risk, but I cannot and do not want to force this decision onto others.


--------------------
Stand up. You're not alone.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Simplepowa]
    #18561262 - 07/15/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I think there is a misunderstanding of my basic point. I'm not saying there are any drugs that people can't "manage" their use of , I'm not saying anyone who uses these drugs will necessarily become an addict . I'm just saying that using these drugs at all , even for the first time , even in moderation, is fundamentally irresponsible.

I'm not saying they should be criminalized or punished for using these drugs, I'm just saying using drugs like that in the first place is not a responsible choice.

Being irresponsible does not mean you are evil or need to be locked up, I don't believe that. It just means your taking a big and unnecessary risk - using these drugs is dangerous to the point of being reckless, thus irresponsible.

People have every right to be irresponsible though, but to deny that they are being irresponsible is implausible to me.

Substitute the word reckless for irresponsible if you prefer and be clear i am not supporting criminalization or the war on drugs, I'm just supporting healthy, prudent choices.


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Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (07/15/13 09:53 AM)

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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18561272 - 07/15/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I'm just saying that using these drugs at all , even for the first time , even in moderation, is fundamentally irresponsible.






I'm just saying that i disagree.

Here's something we might agree on,(i actually believe this btw)
Having kids is fundamentally irresponsible...

anyways i don't want to derail the thread so i will just re-iterate my OPINION that calling the use of any drug "fundamentally irresponsible" makes my jimmies start rustling.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18561290 - 07/15/13 10:00 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I tend to russle a lot of jimmies on this forum because I often advise against the use of certain drugs and the culture here is that all drugs are good and being against the use of any drug is unpopular, but its just my opinion so take it with a great of salt (or just ignore it altogether).

"Having kids is fundamentally irresponsible..."

I couldn't agree more. Having kids is a much more destructive choice than using any drug.

Ecologically speaking.


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18561318 - 07/15/13 10:09 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

:awesome:


I don't want to bash a certain substance you use but the independent research and peoples personal experiences is showing it to have addiction potential on par with opiates(the research is still far from conclusive due to lack of funding/interest but perhaps new studies have emerged since my incarceration).

In any case,
i can't, or won't, back that claim up because i enjoy the substance myself and want to see it legal for years to come.

Good luck moonshoe, may you never get addicted.

:hug:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18561419 - 07/15/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

A drug I use is as addictive as opiates?

Which one?


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18561424 - 07/15/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

i won't touch that with a three thousand mile pole:noway:


let's just save ourselves a debate and assume i have no idea what i am talking about.

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Offlinejoshisstoned
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18562057 - 07/15/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I rolled sack on apb on the 4th of July. I'm glad it hasn't become an ingredient in bath salts. At least to the best of my knowledge.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18562304 - 07/15/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I wont be offended, I just want to know. I sometimes take clonazepam, which is a benzo, and benzo addiction is definitely every bit as serious as opiate addiction, so I would assume that is what you mean.

Etizolam can be addictive too but much less so than clonazepam.

Phenibut can have a truly nasty addiction by all accounts as well.

Kratom addiction is very mild in my opinion, virtually non existence except at extreme daily doses

Marijuana is probably the least addictive of all drugs.

Kava is generally not considered addictive, certainly not very.

I am just curious what you were referencing, but if you don't want to tell me that's fine (but then why did you mention it at all?)


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18562339 - 07/15/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:

Kratom addiction is very mild in my opinion, virtually non existence except at extreme daily doses





the key word there is "except"

there is no room for exceptions when deciding whether or not something is physically addicting.

The physical w/d has been described by many users as similar to opiate w/d.

a heavy habit would lead to heavy w/d...a mild habit would lead to mild w/d. in this respect, whatever substance i may or may not be referring to, is just as addicting as opiates.


hope that made sense.

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InvisibleSimplepowa
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18562525 - 07/15/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I like where this is going

:strokebeard:


--------------------
Carl Sagan - "Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people."

---

Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."

---

Brian Cox - "[One] problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense."

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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18562634 - 07/15/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Well, Kratom is an opiate, but the withdrawal and addiction associated with it are universally described as much less severe than with any of the drugs derived from the opium poppy.

I talk to many opiate users in the WCA thread and they all agree Kratom is extremely gentle compared to "real " opiate withdrawal, and many users report using Kratom daily for months and quitting cold turkey with no withdrawal at all , which is unheard of with opium poppy derived drugs.


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18562888 - 07/15/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Let me know how it works out for you. In your case i'd be more worried about the etiz but, as i'm sure you know by now, i could care less what anyone ingests.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18563048 - 07/15/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, Kratom doesn't worry me much although I do make sure to take regular days off to prevent dependence.

I'm much more concerned about benzo dependence. For that reason I always wait at least seven full days after using clonazepam before using it or another GABA agonist again. With etizolam I wait at least three days before using it or another GABA agonist again .

The reason the break is shorter with etizolam is because the half life of etizolam is much shorter than the half life of clonazepam , and etizolam is less addicting overall .


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OfflineApostle
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
    #18563058 - 07/15/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:


I'm much more concerned about benzo dependence. 



Ditto.

luckily i don't even enjoy it enough to want to use them daily, or at all really. but if i want a beer or something i'll just pop a benzy or drink a beer. lol.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
    #18563099 - 07/15/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I use benzos as an alternative to alcohol , like if I'm going to a social event where I know everyone will be drinking, I take clonazepam or etizolam instead. I think alcohol is much harder on the brain and body then benzos  when used occasionally . Benzos on there own (not mixed with alcohol or opiates) are actually very safe except if dependence develops in which case they are extremely dangerous, but alcohol dependence is too.


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