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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18553526 - 07/13/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: "The problem with these chemicals is not the chemicals themselves, it's irresponsible usage. "
I totally disagree (respectfully) with this point of view. In my opinion some chemicals are so high risk that there is no such thing as responsible use (any use of them is ipso facto irresponsible).
Responsible use of MDPV seems to me to be a contradiction in terms , like responsible drunk driving or responsible Russian roulette.
Sure, some psychoactive chemicals are generally riskier than others, and if the ultimate goal of your life is to just be "responsible", then yes, you should probably avoid this category altogether. However, I've found far greater rewards from occasionally daring to stray into so-called irresponsibility. Wishing to extend one's lifespan in a healthy way is an admirable goal, but your emphasis on safety, security and avoidance of any behavior that might be considered toxic seems ultimately rooted in fear (re: death anxiety) and although such a lifestyle may be a useful foundation upon which to build one's practice, IMO one must sometimes ultimately stray from one's comfort zone in order to experience that which is truly meaningful.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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greencrush420



Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 1,014
Loc: U.S.A
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: deCypher]
#18553747 - 07/13/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Personally, if I could do any drug without harming loved ones, putting my family through an emotionally traumatic ordeal, or loosing precious time with them, I might be open to trying some of the substances that are on my "never do" list. However, I put the happiness, safety, and wellbeing of my loved ones before my own desire to try different drugs. I would rather put food on the table for them, and a roof over their head than blow money on a drug addiction. I would rather be the families rock, than a weak link. It's all about life circumstances and perspective, and what is okay for one may not be okay for another. I personally am not willing to stray, because, in my opinion, the risks are greater than the rewards. I consider time with my family more meaningful than time with heroin or meth. It's not really about self preservation for me, at least not for my own sake, but for the sake of others that I care deeply for.
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PsYcHoDoUgHbOy
Connoisseur



Registered: 08/11/08
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Last seen: 27 days, 11 hours
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: greencrush420]
#18554686 - 07/13/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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MDPV is definitely more addictive than Methamphetamine.
I like this study.
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Sheekle
FREE BURKE



Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 53,153
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18555800 - 07/14/13 02:44 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm glad that MDPV is illegal. I look forward to the day the massive amount of neuronal death caused by 25i-nbome is proven to be true and it becomes illegalized as well.
-------------------- "Ur cat died because he hated u" - Koods "I hope JSB kicks your ass one day." - Vandago "you are the biggest 'internet guy' I have ever come across"- Jokeshopbeard "The more I see you post the more I realize you're just this fuckin tie dye loser who trolls the Shroomery 24/7." - Herbologist "Sheekle you cannot vile the dice of bullshit you have posted on this forum over the years, I like databases" - thelastoneleft "or maybe i just come from a blood line of superior intelligence" - trees R.I.P Kelsy, ?/?/?? - 6/11/16
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Sheekle] 4
#18556153 - 07/14/13 07:01 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fuck you for supporting drug prohibition and throwing your fellow psychonauts into prison just for using a different chemical than you.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Konyap

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 33,945
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: deCypher]
#18557201 - 07/14/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Apostle
Philanthropist



Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 31,501
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Konyap]
#18557353 - 07/14/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Simplepowa
In Pursuit of Knowledge


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 4,310
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
#18559103 - 07/14/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Lots of you on here seems to forget lots of thing posted in the news not long ago...
Lots of bias in this thread
Maybe Carl Hart can help you a bit, month old article, because I'm too lazy tonight to create some more debate.
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/carl_hart_drugs_dont_turn_people_into_criminals_partner/
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Carl Sagan - "Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people." --- Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." --- Brian Cox - "[One] problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense."
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Simplepowa] 1
#18559513 - 07/14/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I read your post and looked at the article you linked but it is not clear to me what you are trying to say or imply, or why it is relevant to this thread.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Simplepowa
In Pursuit of Knowledge


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 4,310
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18560556 - 07/15/13 04:45 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: I can give you a list but it would only be my own subjective opinion.
Here it is:
Drugs that cannot be responsibly used :
Meth Crack IV heroin MDPV Inhalants (gas, computer duster, glue) Krokodil Datura Cigarettes/tobacco (except for strictly ceremonial purposes)
Basically everything else can be used responsibly by some .
Again , just my own personal list of drugs no one should even try.
My point: this kind of list is pointless.
Why?
Quote:
There are multiple false conclusions. There is a belief, for example, that crack cocaine is so addictive it only took one hit to get hooked, and that it is impossible to use heroin without becoming addicted. There was another belief that methamphetamine users are cognitively impaired. All of these are myths that have have been perpetuated primarily by law enforcement, and law enforcement deals with a limited, select group of people—people who are, in many cases, behaving badly. But to generalize that to all drug users is not only shortsighted and naive, it’s also irresponsible.
Saying that all these drug CAN'T be used responsibly is quite a hard statement.
Quote:
That’s exactly right. It’s that if you don’t contextualize what is happening with drugs in the country you might get the impression that drugs are so bad they’re causing all these people to go to jail: “Let’s find out how drugs are exerting these awful effects.” Now, you have just completely disregarded context in which all of these things occur, and that is what has happened in science. If you don’t fully appreciate the context, and you think that drug users are awful, then you don’t think about how a person takes care of their kid, takes care of their family, goes to work, but they also use drugs. If you don’t think about all of those contextual factors, you limit the picture and that’s what we’ve done.
There is always a context for why people will become reckless with their drug usage.
Quote:
The pharmalogical effects of drugs rarely lead to crime, but the public conflates these issues regardless. If we were going to look at how pharmalogical drugs influence crime, we should probably look at alcohol. We know sometimes people get unruly when they drink, but the vast majority of people don’t. Certainly, we have given thousands of doses of crack cocaine and methamphetamine to people in our lab, and never had any problems with violence or anything like that. That tells you it’s not the pharmacology of the drug, but some interaction with the environment or environmental conditions, that would probably happen without the drug.
In your list, you forgot ethanol... So much people CAN'T use it responsibly. But you seem to pass right beside it. I would still let people use it if they want, who am I to decide what people can't or can ingest to alter their mind after all.
Plus, sometimes the context in what a person will decide to start using heroin or cocaine is not for the best of his interest. You hit hard bottom, you want to feel good, etc., you start using "hard drugs" but you are already in a state of mind prone to addiction. So you become more easily addicted. People usually don't want to use heroin for fun because it is viewed as this evil drug that destroy life...
Quote:
Given the large percentage of people who are not addicted and try these drugs, it’s something other than the pharmacology of the drugs that’s causing addiction. We find that 85% of the people, for example, who use cocaine are not addicted, even though they use the same cosmetological substance as those who are.
So only about 15% of people can't really use cocaine in a responsible manner. Saying that this drug cannot be used responsibly is still not true then.
---
I could go on and on and on...
Lots of bias in this thread like I said.
p.s.: All quotes (but the first one) are from www.salon.com/2013/06/17/carl_hart_drugs_dont_turn_people_into_criminals_partner/
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Carl Sagan - "Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people." --- Robert Pirsig - "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." --- Brian Cox - "[One] problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense."
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Lord_McLovin
mad scientist on shrooms


Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 3,071
Loc: infinite dimensional void
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18560813 - 07/15/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I find it very ignorant of you to divide drugs into two lists (good and bad, illegal and legal, etc.), especially when you are an illegal drug user yourself, moonshoe. Whether a drug is used responsibly or irresponsibly depends a lot on the person and you should thus not generalize too easily. Nonetheless, it is true that users of potent opioids and potent stimulants are more at risk of becoming addicted to their drug of choice than, say for example, users of psychedelics. Yet there is no direct implication! I, personally, do not want to take that risk, but I cannot and do not want to force this decision onto others.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Simplepowa]
#18561262 - 07/15/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think there is a misunderstanding of my basic point. I'm not saying there are any drugs that people can't "manage" their use of , I'm not saying anyone who uses these drugs will necessarily become an addict . I'm just saying that using these drugs at all , even for the first time , even in moderation, is fundamentally irresponsible.
I'm not saying they should be criminalized or punished for using these drugs, I'm just saying using drugs like that in the first place is not a responsible choice.
Being irresponsible does not mean you are evil or need to be locked up, I don't believe that. It just means your taking a big and unnecessary risk - using these drugs is dangerous to the point of being reckless, thus irresponsible.
People have every right to be irresponsible though, but to deny that they are being irresponsible is implausible to me.
Substitute the word reckless for irresponsible if you prefer and be clear i am not supporting criminalization or the war on drugs, I'm just supporting healthy, prudent choices.
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Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (07/15/13 09:53 AM)
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Apostle
Philanthropist



Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 31,501
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18561272 - 07/15/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: I'm just saying that using these drugs at all , even for the first time , even in moderation, is fundamentally irresponsible.
I'm just saying that i disagree.
Here's something we might agree on,(i actually believe this btw) Having kids is fundamentally irresponsible...
anyways i don't want to derail the thread so i will just re-iterate my OPINION that calling the use of any drug "fundamentally irresponsible" makes my jimmies start rustling.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
#18561290 - 07/15/13 10:00 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I tend to russle a lot of jimmies on this forum because I often advise against the use of certain drugs and the culture here is that all drugs are good and being against the use of any drug is unpopular, but its just my opinion so take it with a great of salt (or just ignore it altogether).
"Having kids is fundamentally irresponsible..."
I couldn't agree more. Having kids is a much more destructive choice than using any drug.
Ecologically speaking.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Apostle
Philanthropist



Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 31,501
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18561318 - 07/15/13 10:09 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't want to bash a certain substance you use but the independent research and peoples personal experiences is showing it to have addiction potential on par with opiates(the research is still far from conclusive due to lack of funding/interest but perhaps new studies have emerged since my incarceration).
In any case, i can't, or won't, back that claim up because i enjoy the substance myself and want to see it legal for years to come.
Good luck moonshoe, may you never get addicted.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
#18561419 - 07/15/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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A drug I use is as addictive as opiates?
Which one?
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Apostle
Philanthropist



Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 31,501
Loc: FL
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18561424 - 07/15/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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i won't touch that with a three thousand mile pole
let's just save ourselves a debate and assume i have no idea what i am talking about.
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joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
#18562057 - 07/15/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I rolled sack on apb on the 4th of July. I'm glad it hasn't become an ingredient in bath salts. At least to the best of my knowledge.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Apostle]
#18562304 - 07/15/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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I wont be offended, I just want to know. I sometimes take clonazepam, which is a benzo, and benzo addiction is definitely every bit as serious as opiate addiction, so I would assume that is what you mean.
Etizolam can be addictive too but much less so than clonazepam.
Phenibut can have a truly nasty addiction by all accounts as well.
Kratom addiction is very mild in my opinion, virtually non existence except at extreme daily doses
Marijuana is probably the least addictive of all drugs.
Kava is generally not considered addictive, certainly not very.
I am just curious what you were referencing, but if you don't want to tell me that's fine (but then why did you mention it at all?)
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Apostle
Philanthropist



Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 31,501
Loc: FL
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Re: Synthetic Drug 'Bath Salts' Trumps Methamphetamine In Addictiveness, Study Finds [Re: Moonshoe]
#18562339 - 07/15/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said:
Kratom addiction is very mild in my opinion, virtually non existence except at extreme daily doses
the key word there is "except"
there is no room for exceptions when deciding whether or not something is physically addicting.
The physical w/d has been described by many users as similar to opiate w/d.
a heavy habit would lead to heavy w/d...a mild habit would lead to mild w/d. in this respect, whatever substance i may or may not be referring to, is just as addicting as opiates.
hope that made sense.
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