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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis
    #1854307 - 08/27/03 11:37 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I was just thinking that it's interesting that Hypnosis
is generally (always ?) induced by relaxation and involves
letting go of our selves in some way. Very similar to
Meditation. How come we can't get hypnotized by being
agitated or provoked ? something about the state of
relaxation that seems very powerful. As opposed to anger
and opposition. Makes me wonder about the effectiveness
of "tough love" techniques and "struggling" and "forcing".
During my depression I've often been told to "fight it",
"battle it", "don't let it take u down", "keep struggling",
"think positive/happy thoughts" etc, but it never "works".
I usually end up feeling worse. The only time I can manage
to feel better is if I can somehow get into a relaxed state,
which is usually brought about by being distracted from
my internal state and interested in something external,
tuning into good physical sensations, luck, etc. Seems similar
to what is needed for Hypnosis. Just curious why relaxation is
such a powerful transformational tool and why opposing/struggling/
trying can be counter productive and why Hypnosis can't be
induced by the latter...
Thoughts ? comments ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: lucid]
    #1854337 - 08/27/03 11:49 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

similarly with sleep, letting go is required.
If only Insomnia could be cured by simply "telling yourself
to sleep"...
It seems like letting go is not simply useful but
absolutely essential for us. An interesting analogy
between insomnia and depression... no one ever tells
an insomniac to "tell themselves to go to sleep", but
people tell depressed people to "tell themselves that
they feel good" all the time - it's just at futile.
Even better is when people tell depressed people to
think of how much better off they are than others, etc -
as if that will help.
It's like telling an insomniac to tell themselves that
they're sleepy at night and energetic in the morning - it
just doesn't help. IMHO.
But insomnia can be cured if the underlying issues are dealt
with and with relaxation, distraction and learning to let go.
Depression is similar.
Hypnosis seems like it would be instrumental in healing both.
Wonder why it's not a popular means of Therapy ? I was told
that in practice it's been very ineffective - I can't understand
why...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: lucid]
    #1854407 - 08/27/03 12:24 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

hypnosis during a period of anger or heightened guard is not possible. something else happens, which we might consider to be the exact opposite of a "relaxed state." in football, at least, to be good you must be in "the zone," which is a mental state where nothing but the game you are playing is important to you, and your adrenaline is pumping and it is difficult to control your emotions (usually anger). in a way, we can consider this to be the complete opposite of meditation, so i guess there's your answer:one mental state for each end of the emotional spectrum.


--------------------
Here comes the sun, do n do do,
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: IamHungry]
    #1854426 - 08/27/03 12:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

> to be good you must be in "the zone,"

The 'zone' has to do with focus to the exclusion of everything except the game. With hypnosis, the focus is to the exclusion of everything except the therapist. Not that different.

Has anybody ever put a chicken into a trance? It is a very cool trick we used to do on the farm. You draw a line in the dirt with a stick, about three feet long. You take a chicken and hold it on the ground so that it looks down the line. You then stroke the chickens head starting at the top of the head, down the beak towards the line. After a few minutes of stroking its head, you slowly let go and walk away. The chicken will stay there staring down the line for hours if nothing bothers it.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: Seuss]
    #1854799 - 08/27/03 02:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> to be good you must be in "the zone,"

The 'zone' has to do with focus to the exclusion of everything except the game.  With hypnosis, the focus is to the exclusion of everything except the therapist.  Not that different.

Has anybody ever put a chicken into a trance?  It is a very cool trick we used to do on the farm.  You draw a line in the dirt with a stick, about three feet long.  You take a chicken and hold it on the ground so that it looks down the line.  You then stroke the chickens head starting at the top of the head, down the beak towards the line.  After a few minutes of stroking its head, you slowly let go and walk away.  The chicken will stay there staring down the line for hours if nothing bothers it. 



damn that's hilarious :grin:
strokin the chicken into a trance to have u're way with it...
that's jus sick :lol: jus kiddin :smirk:
v interesting tho, so it's not just us humans who can go into
a trance...I wonder if any experiments have been done with large
animals like dogs or monkeys and hypnosis...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: lucid]
    #1854826 - 08/27/03 02:34 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

sharks can be hypnotized as well. shark week taught me that when a shark is put on its back, and its belly rubbed, it will go into a hypnotic state similar to humans


--------------------
Here comes the sun, do n do do,
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: IamHungry]
    #1854866 - 08/27/03 02:46 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

IamHungry said:
sharks can be hypnotized as well.  shark week taught me that when a shark is put on its back, and its belly rubbed, it will go into a hypnotic state similar to humans 



jus like me :grin:
I'll be sure to remember this the next time I'm caught in a feeding
frenzy of Great Whites... :grin: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: lucid]
    #1855257 - 08/27/03 04:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

If you remember the first 'Crocodile Dundee' film, actor PaulHogan did this to a water buffalo in the road who just fell down.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1855263 - 08/27/03 04:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

> animals like dogs or monkeys and hypnosis...

Many animals will show a similiar reaction if you quickly turn them upside down and lay them on their backs.

I saw Penn and Teller 'hypnotize' a lobster at one of their shows.  :smile:


--------------------
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: lucid]
    #1855304 - 08/27/03 05:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

One does not have to relax a person to hypnotize them. Some people respond to kinetic inductions instead. You ask someone to put their elbow on a table and lightly take their wrist and move their forearm back and forth, back and forth. Tell them that there is an invisible string that is pulling their arm back to them and then in the opposite direction away from them. After a minute or two, one releases their arm, and they continue to move it back and forth at which time you make suggestions for entering more and more deeply into trance.

Even trance is not necessary for hypnosis. Moreover, there are 'rapid' and even 'instantaneous' inductions, once a subject has previously been hypnotized. I have successfully used an instantaneous induction by simultaneously jolting the subject by jerking him quickly towards me, and loudly firing the command: "Sleep!!!" while pushing his head into a nodding position. He sort of moaned and went with it ''deeper, deeper, deeper you feel yourself going to that blissful, welcome state of hypnosis..." Now, providing that the person WANTS to find that state, [s]he will go with the hypnotist's command. These techniques require an 'authoritarian' attitude rather than the 'permissive' attitude that I usually employ ('cause I'm not some Svengali or Dracula-looking dude).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: Seuss]
    #1855359 - 08/27/03 05:17 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

In Florida where alligators are plentiful, it is usually told at gator wrestling shows that if an alligator is turned on its back, it will pass out. This is not hypnosis but has to do with its cardiovascular system. If the gator is not put back on its stomach after a few minutes, it will die. I'd be willing to wager it is the same with other life forms. Unfortunately, the word hypnosis was given to the states we use by an Englishman named James Braid, who took it from the Greek god of sleep - Hypnos. Since hypnosis is not sleep, even when the command to 'sleep' is given (because subjects often expect such a command, an expectation is important), the name has remained. In France where hypnosis was re-discovered by Antoine Mesmer, it was called Animal Magnetism and later Mesmerism. Subjective animal states are probably not hypnosis in the human sense because for us, there is a diminishment of rational-analytical consciousness and an ascendency of subconsciousness. Animals (by-and-large) do not dwell in so highly a developed consciousness as our cerebral cortex allows, so chickens and cattle and non-mammals especially are not entering hypnotic states unless one defines hypnosis by a certain fixedness of attention. Interferebce with a creature's life processes such that they pass out or die does not qualify in any case.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1855374 - 08/27/03 05:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm mesmerized.... hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Relaxation, Letting go and Hypnosis [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1858514 - 08/28/03 12:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

^^ same here...
Markos, if u're ever in the Montreal, Canada area, lemme know :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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