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Gun violence in America, why?
    #1848131 -

After watching "Bowling for Columbine" last night I started wondering why did the US seem to have more gun violence than the other countries?

Now, I am very familiar with the standard arguments but they always left something out as far as I can see. I found the answers unsatisfying to say the least.

I found a few clues by reading between the lines but the most damning evidence was presented in this forum by Starter when I ask if anyone had any statistics on white/black crime and black/white crime.

Stunningly it turns out that blacks have been using guns and perpetrating violence on whites at an alarming rate.

So I did a little research myself to see if I could back this up or find out if it were untrue. Here is what I came up with:

"If there's to be racial goodwill and harmony, at the minimum we must be willing to confront sometimes ugly truths. One of those truths has to do with interracial crime.

We all readily condemn highly publicized racial violence, and rightly so, such as last year's brutal murder of James Byrd by white supremacists in Jasper, Texas. However, there's little notice and condemnation of interracial crimes when whites are the victims.

Last June, Jared Taylor, president of New Century Foundation, in Oakton, Va., held a press conference at Washington's National Press Club to report on the foundation's recently released study, "The Color of Crime." Some of the study's findings about interracial crime were surprising, so much so that I did an independent verification of the numbers.

Since 1972, the U.S. Department of Justice has conducted a National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) to determine the frequency of certain crimes. One category is interracial crimes. Its most recent publication (1997), "Criminal Victimization in the U.S.," reports on data collected in 1994. In that year, there were about 1,700,000 interracial crimes, of which 1,276,030 involved whites and blacks. In 90 percent of the cases, a white was the victim and a black was the perpetrator, while in 10 percent of the cases it was the reverse.

Another finding of the NCVS report is that of the 2,025,464 violent crimes committed by blacks in 1994, 1,140,670 were against whites -- that's slightly over 56 percent. Whites committed 5,114,692 violent crimes; 135,360, or 2.6 percent were against blacks.

In 1997, there were 2,336 whites charged with anti-black crimes and 718 blacks charged with anti-white crimes, so-called hate crimes. Although the absolute number of white offenders was larger, the black rate per 100,000 of the population was greater, making blacks twice as likely to commit hate crimes.

Regardless of race, criminal violence is despicable and deserving of condemnation. But far more destructive are the official and unofficial attempts to mislead and conceal. Roughly 400 members of the major print and electronic media were invited to the press conference on "The Color of Crime." According to Taylor, several asked for advanced copies before they'd consider sending anyone. Only 14 people stayed for the briefing and only a couple reported on the study, most notably The Washington Times and C-Span. One reporter said that he'd like to write a story but he doubted he could get it by his editor.

If the facts were the other way around, everybody from The New York Times and President Clinton to the NAACP, Jesse Jackson and the Congressional Black Caucus would be shouting about it and demanding that something be done. Some might want to keep silent about the facts for fear that publicizing the true nature and magnitude of interracial crime might give, as I've been told, "aid and comfort to America's white racists."

To the contrary, silence is perhaps one of the most effective recruitment tools for racists. They can use our silence for proselytizing disaffected whites with demagoguery about how hate crimes are not important unless a black is the victim and how no one cares about blacks raping white women and assaulting white men.

Interracial crime has other devastating effects on racial relations. Whites are apprehensive of blacks, and blacks are offended at being the subjects of that apprehension. Whites are less willing to live in black neighborhoods. For the unthinking among us, these and other responses to racial disparities in crime translate into simple racism.

Multi-ethnic societies are inherently unstable, and how we handle matters of interracial crime is just one of the ways that we're contributing to that instability."

Taken from here.

If this is true then the difference between the gun violence in Canada and the gun violence in the US is simple, reducible to one word:

SLAVERY

A person or a nation reaps what they sow.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848148 -

Actually, if the report is true, the word would be CULTURE.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848150 -

England was wise to keep their slaves in other lands.

Not wise enough to not have them in the first place, but hey nobody's perfect.


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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848154 -

But what creates culture? History

And their history is that white people owned them and treated them badly.

Kinda like my people rising up in the early 70's in Wounded Knee II.

Btw, if anyone has any information that leads in another direction I am all ears. In the meantime I think I have discovered a significant clue to gun violence in America.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848162 -

Yes, and that would explain why England has fewer guns crimes as well.

Damn! I might really be on to something!

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848172 -

Another thing struck me as I watched the movie.

The murder of Kayla Rolland which was portrayed as the "youngest school shooting in America" was also something else as well.

Namely, the youngest interracial hate crime/murder.

The little boy actually said, "I hate you" before he blew her away.

How fitting.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848173 -

Some Indians owned African slaves, too.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848181 -

Sorry, but I'm not buying the slavery theory.

I believe it comes from the racist hatemongers (Jackson, Sharpton, Farrakahn, and the like) screaming about how unfair life is to the brothers.

Da whiteys be keepin dem bruddas down!
Say anything enough, people start to believe.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848188 -

I am sure there were African slaves other places. But I am not sure that the slave issue was nearly as intense as it was in the US. Is there another country in the world where a civil war ended p being fought over that issue?

ps I know the war wasn't started over that issue but Lincoln changed it so he could sustain it.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848192 -

You are correct on all counts.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848215 -

:lol:

I hear ya.  But I think this really may be the factor.  After all, even Charleston Heston admits our history is part of, if the the biggest part of, the reason murder is committed at an alarming rate in the US.

A major part of our history is slavery and the Civil War (War of Northern Aggression, as a son of the South taugh me to say).

To me this makes sense.

And if blacks aren't upset by slavery AND class envy then why in the hell are all those "Kill Whitey" songs created?  Can you imagine the outrage from the liberals if some Neo-Nazi skinhead group put out songs like "Kill the Niggers!"

Or are you saying that blacks don't really hate whites?  I know that is a generalization but I am speaking about group to group which involves generalizations.

I also think this is a reason why gun people don't talk about it if they know about it.  Can you imagine how freedom lovers would be portrayed if they admitted that gun violence was due to blacks?

crucifixion time by the national media. 

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848224 -

Quote:
And if blacks aren't upset by slavery AND class envy then why in the hell are all those "Kill Whitey" songs created?


As I said, repeated claims by the hate-mongers.


Quote:
Can you imagine the outrage from the liberals if some Neo-Nazi skinhead group put out songs like "Kill the Niggers!"


Yes I can imagine. But as blacks are a "protected" group, they can get all types of special treatment.


Quote:
Or are you saying that blacks don't really hate whites?


Many hate whites. See the hate-monger reply above.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848247 -

I see.

So you are saying that you agree about that fact that our murder rate is high because blacks kill whites but you see the reason for that is the hate-mongers, true?

I think the hate monger thing is certainly a part of the equation.  How could anyone deny that?  But they have to have something to hang that on.  I imagine those things are class envy with its roots in slavery.

I see it as a chain reaction:

Slavery
Class Envy
Hate Mongers
Blacks killing whites

I am looking for root causes not the current culture.

You have to remember that I see this as a non-white myself.  I have hung out with my brothers in the West and I can tell you that many of us hate the white man for what he did.  So, why don't we revolt?

The last time we tried that we got the shit kicked out of us.  Makes a person think twice, don't it? :wink:

:lol: 

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848291 -

If the slavery part has anything at all to do with it, I believe it to be a very small part.
As was pointed out earlier, the explosion in violent crimes skyrocketed around the time of the civil rights movement, which is when the hate-mongers began spewing their filth.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848294 -

I agree with luv on this one. People like Jackson have ruined MLK's vision of racial equality. If only he had not been killed maybe things would be different.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848296 -

I would link that mostly to a combination of the WOD, and welfare encouraging the breakup of stable families. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848299 -

Good points.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848313 -

Yeah, I can see that. But the small part/ large part is really just a viewpoint. You could also say that a blasting cap is a small part. I see it as a catalyst.

When I think "root cause" I think slavery.

And no one can deny there were great injustices done to blacks prior to the civil rights movement. Some of those have been corrected and some have been "corrected" in a way that only adds to the problem.

But the net answer here is that racism (black on white crime) is responsible for the gun statistics in the US today. I find that more than a little interesting. Didn't you find that interesting? I would have never thought that was a factor.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848326 -

Quote:
When I think "root cause" I think slavery.


Well I disagree but hey, that's life.


Quote:
And no one can deny there were great injustices done to blacks prior to the civil rights movement.

True enough, but to many others as well.


Quote:
Didn't you find that interesting?


Yes.


Quote:
I would have never thought that was a factor.


I'm a news junkie. I'm a former resident of the NYC / Northern New Jersey area. As such I've noticed an amazing difference between the number of blacks being carted off to jail for murder vs the number of whites, so no.... I'm not too surprised.

I had wondered whether it was just the news or if it was actually so. The two articles posted today shed light on the answer.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848327 -

I can see slavery being the absolute root, but I don't think it is as important as more recent factors, at least as far as this subject is concerned.

Jim Crow laws had an even worse effect, imho. If an effort had been made to intigrate freed slaves instead of segregating them from the beginning, then slavery would be a completely dead issue.


Edited by wingnutx (08/25/03 12:58 PM)

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848338 -

Good answers.

Here's another question.

Canada has far less crime. The way Moore phrased it I assume they have far less blacks. Does anyone know if this is the case percentage wise?

I am going to look for those stats.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848340 -

The worst culprit is a culture that holds a tough-guy caricature as it's highest ideal, and considers personal responibility and hard work as 'selling out'. Thank welfare and the WOD for that, and race-baiting pimps like Jesse Jackson.


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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848366 -

I could not agree with that more.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: shakta]
    #1848409 -

I have Chris Rock on my side :smile:

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848420 -

Hence my earlier response....

"Actually, if the report is true, the word would be CULTURE."


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848426 -

That's pretty much what I thought you meant.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848435 -

It was but you were more eloquent in your response.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848524 -

Ok, after at least a half an hour of searching I didn't really find anything meaningful in the way of population statistics between Canada and the United States.

I have revised my opinion though.

In the early 70's the American Indian Movement, or AIM for short, did in fact stir up the Natives and there was bloodshed. This is a parallel or a direct cause for black on white crime.

However, there must be a root cause for the unrest. You simply cannot rile a people up against another race unless there were injustices against that race by the other one.

So I guess the quick and easy answer for the gun problem in the United States would be Louis Farrakan, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, etc.

That just blows me away.

And as far as the news is concerned Luv, I wouldn't be privy to that kind of info. I have been in a more or less news blackout for 15 years.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848541 -

Louis Farrakan has some interesting things to say about Jews and flying saucers.


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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848563 -

:lol:

I am sure he does!

Whadda moroon.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848963 -

I found this chart provided by the World Health Organization in their publication "World Report on Violence and Health," Chapter 1 (this link is a .pdf file)



--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1848976 -

Europe just seems to be more of a DIY death scene.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1848977 -

What are you pointing out exactly? It would be even more interesting if it broke down the US seperate from the rest of the two continents.

Edited by shakta (08/25/03 04:08 PM)

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1848994 -

I guess you just kill someone else if you get depressed in Africa. Isn't it strange that the worst region to live in, in the world has the lowest suicide rates?

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1849111 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
If this is true then the difference between the gun violence in Canada and the gun violence in the US is simple, reducible to one word:

SLAVERY

A person or a nation reaps what they sow.
 


Actually i'd say its simple numbers.  Many more people own guns in america than canada....thus more gun crime. :tongue:

I'd really like to hear a debate on guns and racism between luvdemshrooms and malachi.... :lol:...or not....


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1849117 -

That theory doesn't account for the higher crime in areas of the US where fewer people own guns.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1849237 -

ip: like look
ip: if you took a black person
ip: and randomly picked a person from the populace
ip: its 7 times more likely to be a white person than a black person
con: true
ip: and blacks commit 7.5 more crimes against whites than blacks
ip: so really that does even out
ip: like its almost race blind
con: yeah, good point.
con: HMM.

so the black vs white crime doesnt matter nearly as much as the fact that black people have a higher density of criminals... so culture would matter over slavery. but then since slavery and poverty were the foundation of black culture.. and theyre still disproportionately impoverished.. slavery was instrumental in shaping the culture of today, which is why theyre so violent.

does that make sense?

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1849414 -

Quote:
Canada has far less crime. The way Moore phrased it I assume they have far less blacks. Does anyone know if this is the case percentage wise?




black in canada get along way better than blacks in america, it's actually the east indians and the native americans that white canadians vilify (of course it is also the east indians who run the major crime networks, so it's somewhat based in fact).


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Malachi]
    #1849420 -

"I guess you just kill someone else if you get depressed in Africa. Isn't it strange that the worst region to live in, in the world has the lowest suicide rates?"

some really fucked up shit has been done to the black south africans in the recent past by the white south africans. it's been pay back time for the last few years.

it's not hard to understand that it's easier to direct your hatred outwards when there's such a visible target(s).


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Malachi]
    #1849421 -

"In the early 70's the American Indian Movement, or AIM for short, did in fact stir up the Natives and there was bloodshed. This is a parallel or a direct cause for black on white crime."

free leonard peltier!


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Autonomous]
    #1849500 -

Damn, that chart seems to indicate that blacks kill a lot of people compared to other races killing people.

Azmodeus:

"Actually i'd say its simple numbers. Many more people own guns in america than canada....thus more gun crime."

That's exactly what the Moore-on wants you to think but as wingnutz pointed out if that were true places like Virgin, Utah, where you have to own a gun to live there, would have extremely high crime rates. They have next to none.

immaculate:

"so the black vs white crime doesnt matter nearly as much as the fact that black people have a higher density of criminals... so culture would matter over slavery. but then since slavery and poverty were the foundation of black culture.. and theyre still disproportionately impoverished.. slavery was instrumental in shaping the culture of today, which is why theyre so violent."

That makes sense to me. Look at Autonomous' chart. It makes it appear as if blacks are prone to homocide.


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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1849538 -

Azmodeus:

"Actually i'd say its simple numbers. Many more people own guns in america than canada....thus more gun crime."

That's exactly what the Moore-on wants you to think but as wingnutz pointed out if that were true places like Virgin, Utah, where you have to own a gun to live there, would have extremely high crime rates. They have next to none.

Did you watch the movie? Granted Moore uses his share of propoganda, but his message is NOT anti-gun. In fact in the scenes where he is interviewing all the gun owners in Canada, he finds that Canada also has a fairly well armed populace. This goes directly against the numbers argument.

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: DeepDish2]
    #1849568 -

yeah, moore's conclusion seems to be that it's the so-called "culture of fear" that makes americans kill each other, not the number of guns.

mr mushrooms, have you even seen the film? I have no idea how you could've wrote "hat's exactly what the Moore-on wants you to think".

regardless of what you think of moore's intellect, he is a noble man doing what he thinks is right. I encourage anyone on this message board who has shot a documentary or written a book that has sparked a fraction of the honest public debate as moore's work has to please share it with us. or a book or film about anything, for that matter.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1849605 -

Just went through this thread and reaching the end of it felt like tossing in my two cents. I don't think that race has anything to do with the gun violence in America I think The men and the circumstance under which they procured the guns has to do with gun violence in America. I don't know if you people noticed but this country was ruled by men with guns, then freed by men with guns and split apart and brought back together(no surprise)by men with guns.
There has always been crime and there will always be crime as long as there is money and evil and the men that will use evil means to get money in this world and in this country we live in. If you want to blame the violence on anyone blame it on the source of illegal guns in America research where the guns are coming from and how they are getting here. These are weapons that find there way into the hands of children and criminals.
I don't think the topic of this thread should be gun violence in America but violence in America period.
As Far as the Canadian thing I don't know much about Canadian goverment except that Canadians like to drink and sing dirty lymrics

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: deviantnature]
    #1849620 -

actually children get guns from their parents, not illegal gun smugglers.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1849689 -

Quote:
Mr_Mushrooms said:
Damn, that chart seems to indicate that blacks kill a lot of people compared to other races killing people.

After starting this thread off with an interesting hypothesis that gun violence could be tied to slavery, I'm surprised you made this statement.  If you stuck with your hypothesis, wouldn't you ask yourself about the slavery situation in Africa???  :confused:
If you did, I think you would find that slavery was (and still is) a bigger problem in Africa than anywhere else, and this fact would greatly strengthen your hypothesis.


--------------------

Edited by Cornholio (08/25/03 09:35 PM)

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1849962 -

That's because I didn't know there was a slavery situation in Africa.

Thanks for bringing it up though.  Now I do. :smile:

And yes, that does seem to strengthen my original hypothesis.

Is this a commonly known fact?

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1850022 -

Here's a good article about modern day slavery from a source I have a lot of trust in (infoplease.com).

Here's another that mentions that slavery was worse in Africa than in the Americas. Although I don't know anything about the source, it sounds like a very well reasoned article.

No, I don't think the details of slavery in countries outside the US is something that's well known.


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Edited by Cornholio (08/26/03 01:53 AM)

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1850029 -

Thanks!

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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1850059 -

You bet!  Good luck with your book sales when you publish this!  :wink: 


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