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Anonymous

Gun violence in America, why?
    #1848131 - 08/25/03 01:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

After watching "Bowling for Columbine" last night I started wondering why did the US seem to have more gun violence than the other countries?

Now, I am very familiar with the standard arguments but they always left something out as far as I can see. I found the answers unsatisfying to say the least.

I found a few clues by reading between the lines but the most damning evidence was presented in this forum by Starter when I ask if anyone had any statistics on white/black crime and black/white crime.

Stunningly it turns out that blacks have been using guns and perpetrating violence on whites at an alarming rate.

So I did a little research myself to see if I could back this up or find out if it were untrue. Here is what I came up with:

"If there's to be racial goodwill and harmony, at the minimum we must be willing to confront sometimes ugly truths. One of those truths has to do with interracial crime.

We all readily condemn highly publicized racial violence, and rightly so, such as last year's brutal murder of James Byrd by white supremacists in Jasper, Texas. However, there's little notice and condemnation of interracial crimes when whites are the victims.

Last June, Jared Taylor, president of New Century Foundation, in Oakton, Va., held a press conference at Washington's National Press Club to report on the foundation's recently released study, "The Color of Crime." Some of the study's findings about interracial crime were surprising, so much so that I did an independent verification of the numbers.

Since 1972, the U.S. Department of Justice has conducted a National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) to determine the frequency of certain crimes. One category is interracial crimes. Its most recent publication (1997), "Criminal Victimization in the U.S.," reports on data collected in 1994. In that year, there were about 1,700,000 interracial crimes, of which 1,276,030 involved whites and blacks. In 90 percent of the cases, a white was the victim and a black was the perpetrator, while in 10 percent of the cases it was the reverse.

Another finding of the NCVS report is that of the 2,025,464 violent crimes committed by blacks in 1994, 1,140,670 were against whites -- that's slightly over 56 percent. Whites committed 5,114,692 violent crimes; 135,360, or 2.6 percent were against blacks.

In 1997, there were 2,336 whites charged with anti-black crimes and 718 blacks charged with anti-white crimes, so-called hate crimes. Although the absolute number of white offenders was larger, the black rate per 100,000 of the population was greater, making blacks twice as likely to commit hate crimes.

Regardless of race, criminal violence is despicable and deserving of condemnation. But far more destructive are the official and unofficial attempts to mislead and conceal. Roughly 400 members of the major print and electronic media were invited to the press conference on "The Color of Crime." According to Taylor, several asked for advanced copies before they'd consider sending anyone. Only 14 people stayed for the briefing and only a couple reported on the study, most notably The Washington Times and C-Span. One reporter said that he'd like to write a story but he doubted he could get it by his editor.

If the facts were the other way around, everybody from The New York Times and President Clinton to the NAACP, Jesse Jackson and the Congressional Black Caucus would be shouting about it and demanding that something be done. Some might want to keep silent about the facts for fear that publicizing the true nature and magnitude of interracial crime might give, as I've been told, "aid and comfort to America's white racists."

To the contrary, silence is perhaps one of the most effective recruitment tools for racists. They can use our silence for proselytizing disaffected whites with demagoguery about how hate crimes are not important unless a black is the victim and how no one cares about blacks raping white women and assaulting white men.

Interracial crime has other devastating effects on racial relations. Whites are apprehensive of blacks, and blacks are offended at being the subjects of that apprehension. Whites are less willing to live in black neighborhoods. For the unthinking among us, these and other responses to racial disparities in crime translate into simple racism.

Multi-ethnic societies are inherently unstable, and how we handle matters of interracial crime is just one of the ways that we're contributing to that instability."

Taken from here.

If this is true then the difference between the gun violence in Canada and the gun violence in the US is simple, reducible to one word:

SLAVERY

A person or a nation reaps what they sow.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848148 - 08/25/03 01:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, if the report is true, the word would be CULTURE.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848150 - 08/25/03 01:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

England was wise to keep their slaves in other lands.

Not wise enough to not have them in the first place, but hey nobody's perfect.



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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848154 - 08/25/03 01:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

But what creates culture? History

And their history is that white people owned them and treated them badly.

Kinda like my people rising up in the early 70's in Wounded Knee II.

Btw, if anyone has any information that leads in another direction I am all ears. In the meantime I think I have discovered a significant clue to gun violence in America.


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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848162 - 08/25/03 01:46 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, and that would explain why England has fewer guns crimes as well.

Damn! I might really be on to something!


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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848172 - 08/25/03 01:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Another thing struck me as I watched the movie.

The murder of Kayla Rolland which was portrayed as the "youngest school shooting in America" was also something else as well.

Namely, the youngest interracial hate crime/murder.

The little boy actually said, "I hate you" before he blew her away.

How fitting.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848173 - 08/25/03 01:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Some Indians owned African slaves, too.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848181 - 08/25/03 01:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry, but I'm not buying the slavery theory.

I believe it comes from the racist hatemongers (Jackson, Sharpton, Farrakahn, and the like) screaming about how unfair life is to the brothers.

Da whiteys be keepin dem bruddas down!
Say anything enough, people start to believe.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848188 - 08/25/03 01:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I am sure there were African slaves other places. But I am not sure that the slave issue was nearly as intense as it was in the US. Is there another country in the world where a civil war ended p being fought over that issue?

ps I know the war wasn't started over that issue but Lincoln changed it so he could sustain it.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848192 - 08/25/03 01:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You are correct on all counts.


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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848215 - 08/25/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:

I hear ya.  But I think this really may be the factor.  After all, even Charleston Heston admits our history is part of, if the the biggest part of, the reason murder is committed at an alarming rate in the US.

A major part of our history is slavery and the Civil War (War of Northern Aggression, as a son of the South taugh me to say).

To me this makes sense.

And if blacks aren't upset by slavery AND class envy then why in the hell are all those "Kill Whitey" songs created?  Can you imagine the outrage from the liberals if some Neo-Nazi skinhead group put out songs like "Kill the Niggers!"

Or are you saying that blacks don't really hate whites?  I know that is a generalization but I am speaking about group to group which involves generalizations.

I also think this is a reason why gun people don't talk about it if they know about it.  Can you imagine how freedom lovers would be portrayed if they admitted that gun violence was due to blacks?

crucifixion time by the national media. 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848224 - 08/25/03 02:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

And if blacks aren't upset by slavery AND class envy then why in the hell are all those "Kill Whitey" songs created?



As I said, repeated claims by the hate-mongers.


Quote:

Can you imagine the outrage from the liberals if some Neo-Nazi skinhead group put out songs like "Kill the Niggers!"



Yes I can imagine. But as blacks are a "protected" group, they can get all types of special treatment.


Quote:

Or are you saying that blacks don't really hate whites?



Many hate whites. See the hate-monger reply above.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848247 - 08/25/03 02:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I see.

So you are saying that you agree about that fact that our murder rate is high because blacks kill whites but you see the reason for that is the hate-mongers, true?

I think the hate monger thing is certainly a part of the equation.  How could anyone deny that?  But they have to have something to hang that on.  I imagine those things are class envy with its roots in slavery.

I see it as a chain reaction:

Slavery
Class Envy
Hate Mongers
Blacks killing whites

I am looking for root causes not the current culture.

You have to remember that I see this as a non-white myself.  I have hung out with my brothers in the West and I can tell you that many of us hate the white man for what he did.  So, why don't we revolt?

The last time we tried that we got the shit kicked out of us.  Makes a person think twice, don't it? :wink:

:lol: 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848291 - 08/25/03 02:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If the slavery part has anything at all to do with it, I believe it to be a very small part.
As was pointed out earlier, the explosion in violent crimes skyrocketed around the time of the civil rights movement, which is when the hate-mongers began spewing their filth.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848294 - 08/25/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with luv on this one. People like Jackson have ruined MLK's vision of racial equality. If only he had not been killed maybe things would be different.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848296 - 08/25/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would link that mostly to a combination of the WOD, and welfare encouraging the breakup of stable families. Unintended consequences are a bitch.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1848299 - 08/25/03 02:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Good points.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1848313 - 08/25/03 02:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I can see that. But the small part/ large part is really just a viewpoint. You could also say that a blasting cap is a small part. I see it as a catalyst.

When I think "root cause" I think slavery.

And no one can deny there were great injustices done to blacks prior to the civil rights movement. Some of those have been corrected and some have been "corrected" in a way that only adds to the problem.

But the net answer here is that racism (black on white crime) is responsible for the gun statistics in the US today. I find that more than a little interesting. Didn't you find that interesting? I would have never thought that was a factor.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848326 - 08/25/03 02:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

When I think "root cause" I think slavery.



Well I disagree but hey, that's life.


Quote:

And no one can deny there were great injustices done to blacks prior to the civil rights movement.


True enough, but to many others as well.


Quote:

Didn't you find that interesting?



Yes.


Quote:

I would have never thought that was a factor.



I'm a news junkie. I'm a former resident of the NYC / Northern New Jersey area. As such I've noticed an amazing difference between the number of blacks being carted off to jail for murder vs the number of whites, so no.... I'm not too surprised.

I had wondered whether it was just the news or if it was actually so. The two articles posted today shed light on the answer.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
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Re: Gun violence in America, why? [Re: ]
    #1848327 - 08/25/03 02:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I can see slavery being the absolute root, but I don't think it is as important as more recent factors, at least as far as this subject is concerned.

Jim Crow laws had an even worse effect, imho. If an effort had been made to intigrate freed slaves instead of segregating them from the beginning, then slavery would be a completely dead issue.



Edited by wingnutx (08/25/03 02:58 PM)


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