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InvisibleRuca32
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Registered: 06/24/13
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: FleshCap]
    #18482463 - 06/28/13 01:50 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I know, I wouldn't be surprised if vitamin concentrates were scheduled and controlled.

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OfflineRumblefishtwist
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Ruca32]
    #18482515 - 06/28/13 02:10 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Great work.


LOL at all the noobs and phony hippies ITT who lash against DEA/LEO trying to put an end to the bullshit.

The only time i've had bad trips was from assholes irresponsible with RC's.

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OfflineTerratic

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 155
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Rumblefishtwist] * 1
    #18482674 - 06/28/13 04:05 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rumblefishtwist said:
Great work.


LOL at all the noobs and phony hippies ITT who lash against DEA/LEO trying to put an end to the bullshit.

The only time i've had bad trips was from assholes irresponsible with RC's.




I'm not particularly fond of cathinones, synthetic cannabinoids or N-benzyl derivatives. Still, it's their controlling mentality and intolerance that keeps the conflict going, resolving very little in the process. Don't ban psychoactives just because people can't manage themselves; banning them obviously won't get rid of the problem—it hasn't. We can cheer at the DEA for punishing the "enemies" that cultivate and distribute the RCs, but what does that actually solve? Nothing. The problem will always remain until they decide to do the right thing, and revise their strategies.

If traditional psychoactives were (strictly) regulated and decriminalized, I doubt we'd have as many people using these other substances, whether willingly or unexpectedly. It's just common sense.

I suspect that politicians have under-the-table arrangements with private prison owners, and that might be why any sensible revision is being opposed.

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OfflineGettinPsilly
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Terratic]
    #18482783 - 06/28/13 05:28 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Why do other countries bow down to our bullshit?  If a government organization from a foreign country came to the USA and tried to arrest people, they'd be thrown the fuck out (or worse).  Fuck these pussy countries that allow the DEA to apprehend their citizens.  Don't cry about how America brutalizes the world if you don't have the balls to tell us "no". 

Furthermore, they have no right to arrest smokeshop owners unless their products test positive for scheduled compounds.  Simply having "Spice" or "plant food" in your store is not grounds for arrest.  Those packets could contain powdered sugar for all they know. 

If they don't test positive for illegal drugs, these business owners should sue for lost profits, pain and suffering and anything else they can think of.  Even if they don't do prison time, they're losing thousands of dollars on confiscated product, lawyer fees and seized profits.  Not to mention the bad publicity.  The DEA should pay for that if they're found innocent.


--------------------


Please don't take my sunshine away!

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Offlinefungiamongi3
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: GettinPsilly]
    #18482839 - 06/28/13 06:05 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I was trying to get an e-cig in charlotte, nc on wednesday, and there were cops at 2 locations of High Life smoke shop, stores closed.  Pretty damn sure they are related to this

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: fungiamongi3]
    #18483060 - 06/28/13 08:21 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I will never understand anyone's want to try a rc that is just suppose to replicate a tryed,tested and true drug.

At first I thought they took down a bunch of natural oil exporters....

that would have sucked.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Terratic]
    #18483438 - 06/28/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Terratic said:
A word to the wise: if they are not scheduled, they can only be charged if the products were intentionally sold for human consumption, regardless of their status as an analogue. If the prosecutors can't prove this, they'll probably get off scott free. The (unscheduled) products can be legitimately sold as research chemicals, among other things, despite the DEA conveniently calling these terms "euphemisms" for the sake of propaganda. Sigma Aldrich, for instance, sells these chemicals, or at least many that are similar to them, and they never seem to have the DEA accusing them of selling 'designer drugs'.






That used to be true, but isn´t so much the case any more.  They have been charging people who sell chemicals that could be used as drugs, even without evidence of consumption.  Some of these people might get off in court, $100,000 in lawyer fees later, if the judge is in a good mood. 

If you have a lot of a RC, good luck convincing a judge that it wasn´t for consumption.  They know that no one cleans their toilet with methoxetamine.

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OfflineTerratic

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 155
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18483528 - 06/28/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:

That used to be true, but isn´t so much the case any more.  They have been charging people who sell chemicals that could be used as drugs, even without evidence of consumption.  Some of these people might get off in court, $100,000 in lawyer fees later, if the judge is in a good mood. 

If you have a lot of a RC, good luck convincing a judge that it wasn´t for consumption.  They know that no one cleans their toilet with methoxetamine.




I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I request that you provide citations.

There is often a lack of ambiguity, usually with the person possessing blotter paper or other paraphernalia; I mean, these are smart shops selling the psychoactives as "plant food" and "incense." These are the only instances I have heard of. However, while I have heard of vendors being harassed by law enforcement officers for no good reason, I haven't heard of them being successfully convicted without sufficient evidence. LE aren't able to dictate what another person's intentions are; they legally require proof of intent.

Edited by Terratic (06/28/13 01:16 PM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Terratic]
    #18483653 - 06/28/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Terratic said:
I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I request that you provide citations.




I don´t have a link for you and I have to go get lunch now, but I think there was a methoxetamine vendor busted a few months ago that was charged without any evidence of use.

Quote:

Terratic said:
LE aren't able to dictate what another person's intentions are; they legally require proof of intent.




If you read the analogue act, you´ll see that the language is kind of vague and open to interpretation.  How should a judge decide if a substance is intended for human consumption?  If it is a substance that is commonly used as a drug, and being sold from a shady website, then a judge might (correctly) conclude that it is intended for human consumption, even if there is no other evidence of drug use found at the site.  Especially if there is more than one RC found, and sketchy customers/payment methods, and maybe a weed pipe or previous drug convictions, it might be really hard to convince a judge that you didn´t intend for anyone to use the chemicals as drugs.

They need to show intent for a conviction, but they certainly don´t need it to charge you.  You would need to go to trial to get off, which is really expensive, and you would always have a felony arrest on your record.

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OfflineTerratic

Registered: 01/27/13
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18483787 - 06/28/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

If you can find the article, that'd be much appreciated. I'll try to nitpick to see where they may have went wrong.

Operation Web Tryp/Ismene helped to set the standard at which these companies can operate without being held liable. Most of these companies require that you agree to their TOS—this includes legitimate chemical suppliers—stating that you do not intend to consume them. The majority of the folks who were arrested in that fiasco were never convicted, notwithstanding being shut down.

The limitation of products is certainly worthy of suspicion, narrowing down what their intentions could be. There are no laws stating that you have to sell this, that or the other thing. They can simply claim that there was a moral obligation, since the psychoactive chemicals are unresearched and in circulation, or that there was a popular demand, among other things.

The analogue act is very vague, indeed, but that also makes it a double-edged sword. Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat.

Edit: An arrest record is an inevitable stain, though; it's best to start with a clean record. Also, money should be set aside in case of a lawsuit. You can't be tried twice.

Edited by Terratic (06/28/13 01:03 PM)

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OfflineGettinPsilly
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Terratic]
    #18484205 - 06/28/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Intent?  They have to prove the packet has an illegal analogue in it first!  What happens if those bath salt packets contain pure cane sugar?  (Unlikely, but humor me here).  Would they be charged with selling a look-alike of an analogue of an illegal drug? 

Point being: how can they arrest people for selling packets of something without verifying what's in it?


--------------------


Please don't take my sunshine away!

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OfflineTerratic

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 155
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: GettinPsilly]
    #18484398 - 06/28/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I think they can.

Let's say you tell someone that you're selling them LSD, but you're really selling an NBOMe chemical (or even sugar), you can technically be charged with selling LSD. It's also fraud. Even if that's not the case, if they find that you possess a vial of white powder—it could be anything, really—they can arrest and detain you until the test results come back. Laws might vary throughout different states and countries, though.

If it's just a look-alike of an analogue, that's a bit tricky! What if it's actually bath salts?

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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Terratic]
    #18484759 - 06/28/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Terratic said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:

That used to be true, but isn´t so much the case any more.  They have been charging people who sell chemicals that could be used as drugs, even without evidence of consumption.  Some of these people might get off in court, $100,000 in lawyer fees later, if the judge is in a good mood. 

If you have a lot of a RC, good luck convincing a judge that it wasn´t for consumption.  They know that no one cleans their toilet with methoxetamine.




I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I request that you provide citations.

There is often a lack of ambiguity, usually with the person possessing blotter paper or other paraphernalia; I mean, these are smart shops selling the psychoactives as "plant food" and "incense." These are the only instances I have heard of. However, while I have heard of vendors being harassed by law enforcement officers for no good reason, I haven't heard of them being successfully convicted without sufficient evidence. LE aren't able to dictate what another person's intentions are; they legally require proof of intent.







Alan is correct here. It does not matter what the analog act says. They are no longer really respecting the "human consumption" clause.

What does matter, is that so far all the government has to do is charge someone with a billion counts of selling a "controlled substance analog" explain to them that if they lose a jury trial they will be facing 20 years to life for major drug trafficking, and then sit back and watch as their lawyer scrambles for a plea deal. That has happened in just about every major RC bust I've heard of so far (with the exception of a few of the storefront vendors, some of whom I think may have gotten off a little lighter for vending out of a legal business-- which is kinda bullshit, if you ask me.)


The only exception to this I've seen so far is Charles Carlton and his partner (formerly "Motion Research") who are planning to go to trial the last I heard....



When they were busting all the people in logjam (I think that's when this was) the DEA released a document in which they more or less called substances X, Y, Z, etc "controlled substance analogs," flat-out, with no mention of "human consumption" being necessary. I think they even explicitly stated that the suspects denied any knowledge of people abusing their products. I'll see if I can dig this document up, but it might take a while.


I can also point to one vendor, specifically. He used to go by the name "East Coast Chems" before he changed the business name to "Simflux Resources" or something like that. This guy was very careful as far as I knew. He never talked HC, and he tried to keep his business as professional and on-the-level as he could. Perhaps this was why, according to him, he was surprised when he got busted around the time of log jam. (Making that even stranger, was the fact that logjam mostly went after not only storefronts, but mainly people who were selling "herbal incense" blends and bath salt blends-- neither of which ECC/Simflux took part in).



I can pretty much assure you, that if you get caught with any quantity of these chems by the feds, especially a larger amount, you will likely face charges. They will not have to prove human consumption-- they will only have to threaten you with losing between 2 decades and the rest of your life in federal prison. If that's not enough to scare you into a plea, you probably will get fucked by a jury. I don't really want to believe that, and I'm not trying to be a pessimist here, but let's face it:  80-90% of potential jurors out there have probably already been "poisoned" (aka made biased) due to the heavy sensationalistic reports about "bath salts zombies" and people going to the ER because of smoking "fake pot."

All they have to do is tell Mr. And Mrs. Average Dutiful Citizen of the jury that the chemicals you were caught with are the very same chemicals they've heard about in "bath salts" and you're pretty much fucked.


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I am me. We are You.

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OfflineTerratic

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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18486861 - 06/29/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

In the court cases that were associated with Operation Web Tryp/Ismene, as mentioned above, they had a very difficult time determining certain chemicals as analogues, such as the similarities between AET and DMT; in many cases, they often weren't able to convince the jury. Under threat, most voluntarily decided to shut down their operations, had all of their money seized, and one had to pay restitution. Of the many who were arrested—not only the distributors, but some buyers were tracked down—5 out of the 10 people who were involved with vending were convicted (plea bargain), and the majority of buyers were let off the hook, most evading custodial sentences. Their practices and diligence should be called into question, however.

Under the CSAEA, the analogues they were selling were not strictly prohibited when used/distributed in accordance to certain provisions. A handful of them had incriminating evidence against them, i.e., one guy was caught distributing the RCs at a rave, while simultaneously selling them online. That's a big no-no.

I am not debating that vendors get harassed and threatened by LE—even overseas, they have issues with law enforcement, credit card companies, and so forth—but if certain fellows are willing to duke it out, provided that they are careful about how they present their company and distribution/use policies (stating intended use, passing all onus onto the buyer), it would be very difficult to convict them, despite the jural predisposition. If they were to survive that ordeal, LE can't try them again for the same crime. If they decide to cave in under pressure, well, that's their choice. I can empathize with that decision.

I'm not disagreeing with Alan; he's raising some very good points. However, I feel obligated to disaffirm certain assumptions and elaborate on the vendors' wrongdoings and mistakes, that of which made their actions easier to criminalize. There are some North American vendors that remain functional, regardless of disputes.

Edited by Terratic (06/29/13 06:48 AM)

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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: Terratic]
    #18494404 - 06/30/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Terratic said:
In the court cases that were associated with Operation Web Tryp/Ismene, as mentioned above, they had a very difficult time determining certain chemicals as analogues, such as the similarities between AET and DMT; in many cases, they often weren't able to convince the jury. Under threat, most voluntarily decided to shut down their operations, had all of their money seized, and one had to pay restitution. Of the many who were arrested—not only the distributors, but some buyers were tracked down—5 out of the 10 people who were involved with vending were convicted (plea bargain), and the majority of buyers were let off the hook, most evading custodial sentences. Their practices and diligence should be called into question, however.

Under the CSAEA, the analogues they were selling were not strictly prohibited when used/distributed in accordance to certain provisions. A handful of them had incriminating evidence against them, i.e., one guy was caught distributing the RCs at a rave, while simultaneously selling them online. That's a big no-no.

I am not debating that vendors get harassed and threatened by LE—even overseas, they have issues with law enforcement, credit card companies, and so forth—but if certain fellows are willing to duke it out, provided that they are careful about how they present their company and distribution/use policies (stating intended use, passing all onus onto the buyer), it would be very difficult to convict them, despite the jural predisposition. If they were to survive that ordeal, LE can't try them again for the same crime. If they decide to cave in under pressure, well, that's their choice. I can empathize with that decision.

I'm not disagreeing with Alan; he's raising some very good points. However, I feel obligated to disaffirm certain assumptions and elaborate on the vendors' wrongdoings and mistakes, that of which made their actions easier to criminalize. There are some North American vendors that remain functional, regardless of disputes.









Tell that to all the vendors currently facing criminal charges. I'm sure they'll feel deeply comforted by it.

But I'll remind you that the tryptamines that were the focus of webtryp:


1- Were not highly addictive stimulants and cannabinoids that had numerous documented emergency room visits associated with them in just a few short years....

2- ...after an absolute explosion of widespread use. Chemicals via the internet were a much more obscure phenomenon back then...

3- were not repeatedly demonized ih the media...

4- ...and were not tied to a few handfuls of recent deaths.



Very different situation, and if you consider those (and similar) points, I think you'll see that.


--------------------
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I am me. We are You.

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Offlineweshroom
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Re: DEA ANNOUNCES LARGEST-EVER SYNTHETIC DRUG TAKEDOWN [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18581474 - 07/19/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

So who all got busted over this?

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