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Registered: 05/19/08 Posts: 10,303 Loc: The Astral Realm |
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Ah cool. On their commercial I felt like that chick was trying to get me to drink the coolaide or something. But it sounds legit from what you say. More power to yea. I play this game league of legends which probably has the opposite effects... decrease in brain mass, increased aggression.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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I actually think a lot of video games have cognitive benefits and some studies are confirming this now, both strategy and shooting games are good for the brain , as of course are puzzle games. Lumosity is just more well balanced in what it helps with .
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πβπ ’ππ π°π‘ πΌπ⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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Quote: Personally I have tried noopept, piracetam, pramiracetam, centrophenoxine, along with sulbutamine, choline cdp, choline bitartrate, vinpocetine. I found that Pramiracetam with CDP Choline worked the best for me when studying. (Then add sulbutamine + caffeine anhydrous + vinpocetine for all nighter or long day power) I'm going to try the Phenylpiracetam and Alpha GPC Choline next. Noopept and Centrophenoxine seem to cloud my brain even when taken with choline, sort of zombiesque, I feel that I personally think way better without those two. Edited by teknix (07/14/13 05:55 PM)
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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"I found that Pramiracetam with CDP Choline worked the best for me when studying."
Cool , I will switch to that when I cycle of noopept. My plan is noopept for 1-2 months, then piracetam for 1-2 months, then repeat.
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πβπ ’ππ π°π‘ πΌπ⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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I bet you will like it better, what sort of choline or other things are you mixing?
P.S. I haven't been able to find the pramiracetam anywhere but ebay =-/. It was water insoluable and lipid soluable so it could cross the mucosa membrane quite nicely and quickly. Like almost instantaneous effect if you rubbed a bit on the soft pallate (back of the roof of the mouth).
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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I take many many supplements but no choline at present. I should though?
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πβπ ’ππ π°π‘ πΌπ⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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I find it to be like a brain/blood lube, to keep everything flowing along nicely. When I first took CDP choline I felt a cooling sensation in the center of my brain, and it is said to help with the fog you may get from the racetams, which it may have because i didn't get the fogginess I do from the other two.
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πβπ ’ππ π°π‘ πΌπ⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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Like the racetams are the neuron fuel and the choline is the propellant.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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Thanks, that is good to know, I will find some. Can you specify what brand/type/kind of choline is needed?
Will any bottle labeled "choline" do? So far I have not noticed any of the so called "brain fog" people talk about , despite doing larger than recommended doses of noopept for a while. If anything I notice a stimulated effect sometimes, something like having a coffee.
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Registered: 05/09/12 Posts: 10,484 Loc: Suwannee River Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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Quote: Doesn't Buddhism say that consumption of anything that fogs the mind isn't compatible? I just don't understand why you are against moderate alcohol use and ok with moderate etizolam, clonazepam, kratom, and cannabis use. ![]() Alcohol used sparingly is actually good for you apparently. I don't know of anything suggesting etizolam or clonazepam are actually good for your overall health.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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Quote: As a Buddhist, I have taken the five precepts. They are like vows that I strive to live up to every day. They are 1. I undertake to train myself not to harm or kill 2. I undertake to train myself not to take that which is not freely given 3. I undertake to train myself not to engage in sexual misconduct 4. I undertake to train myself not to engage in unwholesome speech and 5. I undertake to train myself to abstain from intoxicating liquours (alcohol). The Buddha, therefore, explicitly instructed his followers not to drink alcohol. Likewise, the Quran says "Can you not see that alcohol has been placed before you by Shaitan (Satan) to instill quarrels among the believers and distract you from prayer?" Islam is explicit- alcohol is forbidden by god. The old testament / torah also speaks about alcohol, in the book of proverbs, saying "look at the drunkard who drinks himself senseless , only to rise and do it again. Drunken stupor goes in rags". (paraphrase). The hindus also prohibit the drinking of alcohol. As a Christian, I drink alcohol only for communion wine, as a sacrament, and that is only a sip. The Buddha never said we should not smoke marijuana. Rastafarians, who derive from the Judaeo-Christian tradition, see the use of marijuana as an essential sacrament, holy to Jah (short for Jehovah, God). Many hindu sects, especially yogis and Shaivites (worshippers of shiva) also use marijuana as a sacrament, as do some sects of Buddhists, but all forbid alcohol. Therefore, there is a commonality of agreement that alcohol is not compatible with religious purity of spirituality, but marijuana is often seen as a sacred sacrament and medicine. Used with a vaporizer, it is also virtually harmless, with many medicinal benefits. Kava , Kratom and Cannabis are all natural plant medicines and sacraments with long histories of ceremonial, sacramental and ethno-cultural use. They are also all safe (in my opinion) and beneficial when used wisely. From my own experience, I have found that consuming alcohol makes it impossible for me to meditate productively, and it also makes it impossible for me to maintain my levels of spiritual energy/ a spiritual state of consciousness. However, I find kratom, cannabis and kava all go very well with meditation and yoga, and actually enhance the feelings of joy, peace, tranquility and harmony that I strive to cultivate. I do not have any problem with people drinking alcohol if they choose to. For persons over the age of 40, who drink one glass of red wine a day, there are health benefits. However, in respect of the fifth precept of Buddhism and the injunctions of the Quran, I abstain from even that. Likewise, I do not eat beef (which is sacred to Hindus because of their association with Krishna) nor do I eat pork (which is seen as unclean by both muslims, jews and some Christians). For similar cultural/religious and spiritual reasons I do not gamble, watch pornography, enter strip-clubs, or watch gory torture films like hostel for example. I do not engage in extra-marital sex. For spiritual reasons, I grow my hair and beard long. I base my life around the disciplines of yoga, meditation, prayer, education, brain training , lucid dreaming and shamanism. Through research and experience, I discern what substances can support me in these endeavours, and which are hindrances. I do not eat refined sugar, cakes or candies, donuts or junk food. I do not smoke cigarettes or use tabacco products. I do not drink alcohol or energy drinks. In respect of another Buddhist precept, I do not wear jewelry of any kind, nor do I wear perfumes or colognes, nor tattoo or pierce my body. I will on occasion and with great preparation use natural psychedelics for shamanic purposes, for personal healing, wisdom, and communion with the spirit world. I do not use amphetamines, cocaine or crack, pcp, inhalants like glue or gas, I do not gamble or sell drugs. I do take kratom, kava and cannabis because I consider them to be natural, safe, medicinal and sacred gifts of Mother Earth, which we may use freely to heal ourselves and enhance our lives. My interests are life-extension and performance enhancement. Clonazepam I have on a doctor's prescription for a legitimate medical reason. He wants me to take them twice a day. However, I use clonazepam no more than once a week. Buddhism teaches us that we may use medicine. Etizolam I tracked down because it is a safer alternative to clonazepam. I use both according to careful rules and disciplines ensuring I use them so rarely and infrequently that no tolerance or dependence develops. Through years of research and experience, I have found certain substances that enhance my life and well being, and I have found specific ways of using them to ensure that they help rather than harm me. I do not ask or expect anyone else to follow exactly my path or to do things exactly as I do. However, I have found a small number of substances that I find enhance my life without hindering my spiritual path. These I use with care and gratitude, all others I eschew. Sorry for the very long answer. Please understand that I have no problem with other people enjoying alcohol, all of my friends and family do. But my personal path has called me to give it up entirely, both because of my spiritual commitments and because of my personal experience. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just explain my position as clearly as possible. Thank you for asking!
Edited by Moonshoe (07/14/13 08:40 PM)
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Registered: 05/09/12 Posts: 10,484 Loc: Suwannee River Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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You use clonazepam and tizzy recreationally though. I've seen you post about using more than the minimal amount for therapeutic effects.
Don't you think benzos would have been included under intoxicating liquors had they existed at the time? I guess I'm getting at the notion of following the spirit of the rule.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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There is no way to know what the Buddha would or would not have forbidden had he been alive today. In fact, he initially resisted setting down any precepts at all, but his followers insisted. The firth precept (abstaining from intoxicating liquors) already has a special status as it is, in that unlike the previous four precepts, breaking the fifth precept imposes no karmic penalty of its own. Rather, the only reason to abstain from intoxicating liquors is not because alcohol is in itself sinful, but because it makes the user more likely to violate the other four precepts, which do have karmic consequences.
Some Buddhists and Hindus prefer to abstain from all drugs entirely. I respect that opinion. However, I believe in optimizing my own health, happiness and well being through the use of plant allies and carefully chosen medicines. I am prescribed clonazepam for the management of anxiety, and that is the purpose for which I use it. The only major difference is that instead of using it daily as prescribed, I use it once a week or less. I do not use drugs to "get fucked up" or to "party". I will use medicines to reduce pain and fear and enhance my quality of life. I have only recently incorporated clonazepam into my life, at my doctor's bequest, and I have been using it sparingly, cautiously, to assess its value in my life. So far I have found it helpful and not harmful, within the parameters I set out for my own use. I may soon stop using it altogether, replacing it entirely with alternative medicines such as kava and phenibut, or I may continue to use it as I have been- rarely and never on consecutive days. Ultimately we are all scientists and our lives are our great experiments. Through my life I have experimented with several things only to find in the end they were not serving me, and so I let them go. I used to do cocaine, but I realized it was not helping me and I let it go. I used to drink alcohol but I realized it was not helping me, and I let it go. Perhaps I will come to feel the same way about clonazepam at some point. Time will tell. I consider stress to be physically and emotionally harmful, and I believe that anxiolytic medications can be one strategy for managing stress, along with yoga, good diet, meditation and exercise, etc. You can say I use anxiolytics "recreationally" but really I use them for their intended purpose- to reduce anxiety. I do not claim to be living a perfect or flawless life. I simply have a clear sense of my path, and I walk it as best as I can, clinging to what I know is good for me (yoga, meditation, gardening, dreaming, nature) and shunning what I know is not good for me (stimulants, alcohol, tobacco). Clonazepam has been a useful tool for me, something that can be of great use and enjoyment and which so far has not caused me any problems. However, I may choose to let it go as well if that seems wise in the future. I do see it as an occasional medicine that is helpful in my life and that I use sparingly, cautiously and occasionally. Right now my life is going in the direction I want it to go, and I am happy with the progress I have made and am making. However, I am always open to changing up the plan if new information or experiences make that necessary. I believe in the value of drugs as life-enhancement tools. However, I have very specific ideas about which drugs, in what doses, at what times and for what reasons. Right now I have worked out a system that works very well for me. Clonazepam does play a role in that system. For the moment I am comfortable with using it in the way I do. However I have been, and will continue to be, careful with it, and may let it go if I ever see a reason to do so. I appreciate you asking these questions, and giving me the opportunity to reflect on and elucidate my life-strategy.
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Thanks for the comprehensive elaboration!
![]() Quote: So natural vs. synthetics is definitely part of your criteria for selecting useful pharmacological substances? What about LSD or other man-made psychedelics that can be incredibly beneficial? What about such plants found in nature like the acacia tree that reportedly contains methamphetamine? And don't forget kratom and cannabis are addictive as well, both psychologically and physically for the user when ingested frequently (although the symptoms stemming from marijuana abuse are far milder, the insomnia, irritability and constant fiending for a smoke belie its common harmless perception.) ![]() Frankly, I think this natural vs. synthetic division hardly correlates with any information about the safety or worth of a substance. There have been African cults formed around the ritual use of plants containing the incredibly dangerous and often toxic tropane alkaloids (as well as South American traditions that involve their use in ayahuasca brews and Dharmic rituals that use them and are associated with such tantras as the Vajramahabhairava, Samputa, Mahakala, Guhyasamaja, Tara and Krsnayamari), Cretan cults that are suspected to have been formed around the ritual use of opium poppies (a highly addictive plant that is turned into heroin), the South American tradition to chew coca leaves (addictive and even more so in its processed form as cocaine or crack) in order to benefit social bonding and clarity of thought, the Oracle at Delphi in ancient Greece who inhaled massive quantities of ethylene, methane, or hydrogen sulfide gas (all carcinogenic inhalants) to trigger hallucinations, the Hindus of West India as well as others in eastern Indonesia who took nutmeg spice for centuries as a form of snuff or as the ground seed mixed with betel and other chemicals to produce a euphoric, visionary intoxication (which can also produce violent convulsions, deliriant-like hallucinations, and possibly death from myristicin poisoning), not to mention the Native American tradition of consuming large amounts of tobacco (likewise incredibly addictive as well as carcinogenic) until going unconscious in order to see visions. A mere history of cultural use or the establishment of a religion around a drug does not imply the drug is safe or worth using. ![]() But let's look into the consistency of Buddhism and the fifth precept, and since it seems your program is attempting to derive wisdom from multicultural sources as opposed to being solely restricted to one religion, let's examine a few other major religions as well: ![]() Despite its admonition against intoxicants, the Buddhists still manage to turn a blind eye to the use of caffeine in tea, which is not only the world's most commonly used mind-altering drug, but also will produce physical dependence that can result in such withdrawal symptoms as headaches, muscle pain and stiffness, lethargy, nausea, vomiting, depressed mood, and marked irritability... all of which may last up to nine days. And given that a single cup of coffee can reduce cerebral blood flow by up to 30%, one has to wonder the wisdom of allowing this in a lifestyle devoted to improving the body and mind. But what about alcohol? ![]() Well, some Tibetan Buddhists and BΓΆnpos, among others, nevertheless ingest small amounts of grain alcohol as occasional offerings as part of the ganachakra tsok ritual. Drupon Thinley Ningpo Rinpoche, a renowned Vajrayana teacher, has said that although laypersons wishing to obey the five precepts upon taking refuge must refrain from taking intoxicants, they may still drink enough so as they do not become drunk. It's the intoxication that is spiritually harmful, not the mere touch of a droplet of wine to the lips. According to Lodro Rinzler, a practicing Buddhist and writer on ChΓΆgyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who originally introduced Vajrayana teachings to the West and founded the first accredited Buddhist university in America, "the intent is not to get the monks wasted but to take what is seen as a poison and transform it into a tool for spaciousness. Rinpoche attempted to lead his Vajrayana students in the West in what he referred to as 'mindful drinking,' with mixed results. Some students engaged the practice to the point where they felt a loosening up on their ego and their dualistic sense of 'me' vs. 'the world.' Others threw up." ![]() The Ngagpa tradition of the Nyingmapa school in Tibetan Buddhism also in fact re-defines the fifth precept as "to refrain from the intoxication of duality, and to become drunken with primordial wisdom." One of the forefathers of Tibetan Buddhism, Padmasambhava, is also said to have tested the mahasiddha Yeshe Tsogyal with a range of pharmacological substances to see if she could maintain her clarity while in altered states of consciousness. Zen Buddhism also has no small share of alcoholic use in its history, especially given the popularity of sake drinking in Japanese culture. Ikkyu, a renowned Zen monk and poet, is considered both a heretic and saint in the Rinzai Zen tradition, and was known for his derogatory poetry, open alcoholism and for frequenting the services of prostitutes in brothels. He personally found no conflict between his lifestyle and Buddhism. It's certainly not hard to find the occasional koan mentioning a monk drinking sake. ![]() Even Judaism sometimes permits intoxication, despite their belief that our bodies belong to God rather than ourselves, and as such we are not permitted to harm our bodies through such activities as drinking or pharmacological abuse: There is a common Jewish tradition to get drunk on Purim until the community members forget the difference between the Hebrew phrases "Cursed is Haman" and "Blessed is Mordechai", which signifies reaching the spiritual world Atzilut where all opposites unite. In other Jewish communities it is customary to drink on Simchat Torah as well, and drinking in small quantities as a mind-altering practice is commonly used during the Farbrengens of the Chabad Hasidim. A few anecdotal references in Chabad literature also refer to the spiritual power of alcohol, when used for the sake of connecting to God and achieving brotherly love among fellows Jews. ![]() Kabbalists too, such as Isaac of Acco and Abraham Abulafia, also mention a method of "philosophical meditation" which involves drinking a cup of "strong wine of Avicenna", whose recipe remains unknown but is implied to contain opium and datura extracts, which would induce a trance and would help the adept to ponder over difficult philosophical questions. Even Tantric Hinduism seems to encourage the consumption of alcohol until intoxication to more quickly achieve enlightenment: The sensual pleasure women provide, ![]() the joy of wine, the taste of meat: ![]() It's the undoing of fools, ![]() but for the wise, the pathway to salvation. ![]() --Kalarnava Tantra Overall I believe any drug, natural or synthetic, has its own merits to offer the individual. What's right for one may not be right for another, and whether it was synthesized in a test tube or in a pile of cow dung, a chemical can still kill you just as much as it can trigger spiritual revelations. ![]() Quote: And that's your prerogative, of course. But note the following: ![]()
As far as the increased toxicity of certain drugs, I believe the process of encountering and becoming consumed by addiction can certainly be a valuable lesson in the long run if the person in question is strong enough to survive the ordeal. It also can provide a first-hand demonstration of how desire and attachment leads to suffering, and honestly many ex-addicts I've met show a strength of character and will-power that I've seen few other people have. It's a test by fire, and few people pull through (most who dare to tempt the Goddess of Desire find themselves never able to escape her clutches), but those who do are arguably stronger than those who never had the courage to try.
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πβπ ’ππ π°π‘ πΌπ⨻ Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 11,953 |
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Quote: I personally liked the CDP choline the best out of the bitartrate and cdp, and I haven't tried the alpha gpc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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Superb post Decypher, I gave you five shrooms in appreciation for the time you took writing it, the thoughtful ideas and the eloquent style.
I have heard many times the argument that there is no fundamental superiority to natural versus synthetic compounds and I partly agree. Certainly many natural substances are toxic and deadly and several synthetic or man made ones are beneficial and euphoric. I make use of both natural and man-made chemicals and medicines in my quest for health and optimization. Alcohol is after all more or less natural, as fermentation, but I avoid it except for ceremonial communion. And although there are countless horrific pharmaceutical drugs, there are many that are euphoric, safe or therapeutic. So in other words I agree with you 100% that you cant use natural versus man made as your only criteria for evaluating the safety and usefulness of a drug. Obviously you also need to consider countless other things such as LD50, side effects, interactions, etc etc etc. That said there is something magical about a completely natural plant that evolved independently of humans and yet has some splendid and fascinating effect on the human mind when ingested. Its cool that we can invent amazing drugs, its also amazing that cool drugs occur naturally in nature. From a spiritual/hippy point of view there is a special kind of communion with nature that comes when you ingest an ancient plant and come into contact with its primordial intelligence- when you speak to mother Ayahuasca you are speaking to the same magical vine that our ancient anscestors were also communing with in primeval eras. Its magnificent! I think some of the most amazing, spiritually enlightening and worthwhile drugs are natural- the psychedelics ibogaine root, magic mushrooms, mescaline cactus, salvia divinorum, marijuana, kratom, kava.... But some of the man made ones are also pretty amazing- MDMA, ketamine, LSD. I mentioned in this thread that I occasionally take etizolam, clonazepam and phenibut, none of which are natural. Nevertheless I like the idea of natural drugs , and could easily see myself settling down with cannabis, kava and kratom as the only drugs I regularly use (almost that way already). Anyways, I don't believe that one size fits all or that there is only one true path. My philosophy is that "all roads lead home" and "all rivers flow to the ocean", meaning that each person takes a unique journey in life, but we are all one and our destination is ultimately the same. So if people want to include alcohol or any other drug in their lives, I am not condemning it. But I have spent my life developing a system that will allow me to get the most out of life and enjoy drugs in a way that enhances my existence while avoiding the pitfalls that can ruin a life or end it prematurely. As always it is a work in progress. I do know that using cocaine filled my life with pain and suffering that was totally unnecessary, and now that I have totally removed it from my life things are so much better for me. My mental health, my physical health, my finances, my self-esteem- all have improved dramatically since I quit cocaine more than a year ago (I was never an addict, just an occasional weekend user, but it still fucked me up). In the same way, quitting alcohol is doing wonders. I can feel my brain regenerating, my intelligence increase, my overall health and energy levels rising. I now longer feel as slow and sluggish, as depressed or as lethargic, no more brain damage headaches or abdominal pains from drinking, and more ability to focus on meditation and yoga and have more stamina and sharper reflexes. So I find there is a lot to be gained by trimming out the parts of your life, especially the substances you use, that are detrimental to you. I see it as freeing up energy. As much as I enjoyed drinking, it took some of my energy, dissipating it. Its like a leak in a boat, you need to plug the leaks one by one so you can stop your boat from sinking and row to shore. In my life things like a tim hortons donut, or an alcoholic beverage, or an red bull energy drink- they all just fuck me up, unbalancing my body and health and mind. I respect crazy wisdom and have a bit of it in myself. Chogyam Trungpa was a famous tibetan Buddhism monk who escaped the chinese persecutors leading a band of refugees over the great mountains, only to settle in the west, set up a meditation school and become a raging alocholic. They say when he died rainbows rose over his body, showing he was a truly holy being. Alan Watts, the famous Zen commentator , was also a raging alcoholic. So there is a tradition in the mystic literature of some saints and gurus who flaunt all the conventions and do things in their own way, including sex, drinking and drugs. Nevertheless, the vast majority of students will do better following the traditional path, abstaining from smoking, drinking and other vices, focusing on meditation, yoga, chanting and prayer, and avoiding all but the most sacramental of drugs. I am not saying one size fits all. But I believe in balance. Buddhism is called the middle way. You do not starve or deprive yourself, on the one hand, but you do not gorge or indulge in excess on the other. So a buddhist does not starve himself, but neither does he eat kentucky fried chicken with icecream cake and a big gulp soda. He follows the middle path - a modest, healthy, well balanced, tasty meal. Apply the same principles to drug. The middle way- sure, smoke a little weed once and a while, yes take some mushrooms on a starry summer night, and even blast to hyperspace with some DMT at least once in your life time. But dont be swigging drinks and pounding beers on a regular basis, or smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, or sticking needles in your arm or smoking meth. Thats my own personal take on the middle way in drugs but basically thats how I see it- being spiritual does not have to been abstaining from all drugs, but it does mean having the focus, health, discipline and mental faculties to do the challenging work of meditation and yoga. Often the drugs are so enticing that the person wanders in to the party lifestyle and forgets the spiritual path altogether. I have chosen the opposite, after many great years I left the party life behind to become who I know I truly am and truly need to be- A spiritual pilgrim, A Buddhist meditator, a Hindu Yogi, a Shaman- A seeker of the sacred.
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Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 606 |
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Quote: Dead Prez has always been my favorite rap group Then Stickman put out his own album called The Workout These tracks are from that album. If anyone hasn't heard them i hope you enjoy, but it's not for everyone. If you do like, look into Dead Prez cuz "its still bigger than hip hop". Im going to start working on precept 4, unwholesome speech and i interpret that to mean more than just profanity. Also i interpret "intoxicating liquors" to be more than just alcohol. Even though it specifies liquors i think the intent speaks to anything that would cause a similar state of clouded judgment and foolishness. Intoxication= to much man to much Liquors= substance I think it all comes down to the intent and the tool. Are you trying to get a lift up to gain perspective and insight, or an escape and a reason to be foolish. Medications are fine when needed because of intent and moderation. Things like (Psilocybin, Ayahuasca & DMT, Peyote, Marijuana, LSD and MDMA) do not fit in the "intoxicating liquors" category because of what they are and the users intent. They do however fit if approached for intoxication. I personally can not use Marijuana anymore.
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Blue Mantis Registered: 05/28/04 Posts: 27,202 Loc: Iceland |
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Sometimes it is now translated as "I undertake to train myself to abstain from intoxicants which cloud the mind", although this is a modern adaptation and not the original words.
Nevertheless it raises two interesting questions. 1. What is an intoxicant? and 2. What does it mean to cloud the mind? I personally do not consider marijuana to be an intoxicant because it is not toxic, which is the core of the word intoxicant. Alcohol on the other hand IS toxic, and that is why we call a drunk person "intoxicated" meaning the toxin is in him. Likewise kratom is not toxic and actually has many health benefits. Although Kava (piper methysticum) translates into "intoxicating pepper" so perhaps it is an intoxicant. A highly toxic drug like meth certainly would be. The second question is what does it mean to cloud the mind. On the one hand, you might say "a cloudy mind" is almost a perfect description of what a marijuana high is like. On the other hand, the mind is often clouded with the worries, cares, concerns, vanities, apprehensions and lusts of the monkey mind, and sometimes marijuana can silence all those thoughts, and actually clear the mind rather than cloud it. So even if we expand the definition of the fifth precept beyond just alcohol, there is still plenty of room for interpretation. Is marijuana an intoxicant? I dont think so. Does it cloud the mind? Or does it calm the mind? Does it cloud the mind, or quiet it? Or soothe it? Or relax it? Does kratom cloud the mind? Or energize, vitalize and stimulate it? Its all open to interpretation, whichever translation you use. I think abstinence from drugs is similar to abstinence from sex. Jesus taught his disciples that the best thing is to be unmarried and celibate and not to have sex but to dedicate your life to God, but then he said "but this is a hard teaching, and few can follow it, so if you cannot be married, for it is better to be married than to burn with lust" If we extend this same kind of thinking jesus might have said "it is best to remain completely sober at all times, but this is a very hard teaching, and few can follow it, so if you must do drugs, stick to weed and kratom, for it is better to smoke weed than to smoke meth and shoot heroin. My mind is wandering free of conscious control right now so I apologize for any nonsense.
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Registered: 06/03/13 Posts: 606 |
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No its my bad i posted my unedited post on accident then immediately posted the revision i think you got the first.
I don't think toxic needs to be strictly biological. I don't use marijuana because emotionally it is toxic to me. I abused it and it began to abuse me. So for me regardless of dosage it is destructive and toxic to my quality of life and i imagine it always will be. For others yeah its great and i see that from time to time but its not my alli. Cloud the mind? When you want or need your brain to work with you and it just wont. When you just cant get on point or am slow to come up with what you need. When your focus is off focus. When you forget what you were saying or what someone just said. When you have a test and you didn't eat your Wheaties.
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: I had typed up a long post to respond to your previous comments but I accidentally closed my browser so for now just a single point: "Toxic" as a qualifier entirely depends upon the dosage level of a substance. Anything can be toxic when given in large enough amounts; even water can kill you if you drink enough. Now, some drugs are certainly more toxic than others because it would take less of the former drug to kill you than of the latter, but this only proves the existence of a sliding scale of toxicity, NOT that of a black-or-white dualistic schism between those drugs that are toxic and those that aren't. Everything is poison, nothing is poison. --Paracelsus
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