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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
#1854234 - 08/27/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I knew somebody would come up with that! It was considered a moral outrage because those of us who were opposed to the war believed that the US and UK governments were lying about the threat of WMD's. Oh how the conservatives on this site mocked us! Now it turns out that the info was indeed, at best, misinformed and at worst downright lies. I consider governments lying to justify war a moral outrage? Obviously you dont.
The other reason it was considered to be a moral outrage was because we had worked out that the main reason we were going into Iraq was to secure the oil fields. We believed if there was no oil in Iraq we wouldnt have given a toss about the oppressed Iraqi populace. We thought that was a moral outrage.
You must have a really bad memory or perhaps you are just believing all the propaganda and have channelled out reality?! J/k (but a serious one..)
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
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Get that chip off your shoulder. Its really pathetic!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Anonymous
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: GazzBut]
#1854251 - 08/27/03 09:15 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Its about far more than Iraq's oil. Its about all the oil in the entire region. We can't hardly be sufficient if most of the worlds known oil supply is in the hands of people who hate us.
I think the administration would rather use brute force and military leverage, threats, fear tactics (big surprise, eh?) than just trying to be buddy buddy with the arabs. As long as we support Israel, they'll never like us.
They know this, so they invade Iraq and have 150k troops in the arab neighborhood in an attempt to get the rest of the surrounding nations to shape up and do what they want them to.
They also thought a true democracy in Iraq would emerge, and the other arab nations would think 'oh my look what america has done for iraq, maybe they arent so bad after all, lets be more democratic!'
Pretty niave of the administration, if thats what they indeed think.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: GazzBut]
#1854266 - 08/27/03 09:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
GazzBut said: Get that chip off your shoulder. Its really pathetic!
Well you know, if there was a chip I'd get rid of it.
I'd say it was more pathetic to assume there is one.
But hey, you're British!
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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wingnutx
Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: ]
#1854293 - 08/27/03 09:29 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not a bad theory. I think that's indeed a large part of it.
If Israel disappeared tomorrow, though, then they'd just start trying to get Spain or East Timor back, or some other target on their laundry list.
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Quote:
But hey, you're British!
How many more times Luvvie! Im not British Im an Earthling.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: ]
#1854320 - 08/27/03 09:40 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with your theory as well, but do you really think enough time has passed to claim it will not work?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: GazzBut]
#1854329 - 08/27/03 09:47 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I knew somebody would come up with that! It was considered a moral outrage because those of us who were opposed to the war believed that the US and UK governments were lying about the threat of WMD's. Oh how the conservatives on this site mocked us! Now it turns out that the info was indeed, at best, misinformed and at worst downright lies. Hilarious wasn't it? Dozens upon dozens of posts insisting Iraq had WMD and anyone who disagreed with this "obvious" fact was "anti-american". Scott Ritter was a "child molester" who could not be trusted. And what a terrible hush ensued when it became clear Ritter was correct.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xlea321]
#1854339 - 08/27/03 09:50 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
And what a terrible hush ensued when it became clear Ritter was correct.
Perhaps a hush will fall if he is indeed proved correct.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xlea321]
#1854343 - 08/27/03 09:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are joking right? What hush? We have been arguing about it for weeks.
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Anonymous
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: wingnutx]
#1854362 - 08/27/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Indeed.
shakta. Personally, I think that it was doomed from the beginning. Mostly because Iraq has been under tight military dictactorship for what, 26? years, untill recently.
They dont know how a democracy works. But of course that doesn't mean it isnt possible.
I dont know. It hasnt been that long, but I havent seen many signs of a strong democratic nation emerging out of the newly emancipated Iraq.
I think that by the first year anniversary of the war, we'll likely know whether Iraq is going to be doing well enough (sovereign, growing economy, freedoms, shrinking crime rate, etc.) to be capable of influencing others in the region to be more pro western/pro democratic.
Things seem a bit dismal, to me, so far. But it hasnt been that long, and we still may get significant international support.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: ]
#1854366 - 08/27/03 10:02 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think you are letting a small minority of Iraqis fool you. Local elections are already being held, along with town hall type debates. The resistance to democracy in Iraq consists of two sects. First are the Saddam loyalists. They know if democracy comes, they are fucked. The second are the Islamic militants. They also have no chance if the people are happy and free.
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Anonymous
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
#1854388 - 08/27/03 10:14 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I guess.
I wouldnt know.
If you have any links concerning the success of democracy in Iraq, I'd love to read them.
I just haven't heard much on it. Dont have a great perspective, I suppose.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: ]
#1854542 - 08/27/03 11:18 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nevermind. Apparently they have decided to postpone all the local elections. They are saying it is to early, because the only ones that are organized are the Baath party members. Sounds like a bad thing to me. This makes me a bit more pessimistic about the progress in the country to be sure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42905-2003Jun27?language=printer
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
#1854653 - 08/27/03 11:46 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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One good sign I thought is the fact that the Iraqis want to hold elections. As the one guy says at the end of the article, "We have waited so long for this...". That is a good indication that democracy has a chance in Iraq.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
#1854960 - 08/27/03 01:10 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not if they elect a government america doesn't like the look of.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xlea321]
#1855001 - 08/27/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think ultimately it will be up to the Iraqis. We can't and won't stay there forever. Hopefully they will use good judgement when the elections finally do happen. I also noticed Bremer wants them to finish their Constitution before the elections happen. That is probably a good idea as well.
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xlea321]
#1855016 - 08/27/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: Not if they elect a government america doesn't like the look of.
I think you're right. The U.S. government would not like it if the Iraqis democratically installed an Islamic Fundamentalist regime. We would then quite plainly see the hypocrisy of our officials who give lip service to 'democracy.'
-------------------- "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
#1855040 - 08/27/03 01:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think ultimately it will be up to the Iraqis Not much chance of that shak. You think we're going to invade and sit back while they install an anti-american fundamentalist government? Or even, horror of horrors, a communist one?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xlea321]
#1855095 - 08/27/03 01:52 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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No I don't, nor do I think we should allow that. The Islamic Fundamentalist government is a bit different than a communist one though. I know for a fact that communism will not be allowed, nor do I think the Iraqis would want it.
As far as an Islamic fundamentalist regime goes, if they elect one down the road, and they start to fund terrorism and harbor terrorists they will be eliminated as well. I think the knowledge of that will prevent it from happening.
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