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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
"increasingly pessimistic"
    #1846513 - 08/24/03 10:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

from http://www.msnbc.com/news/956458.asp?0cv=CA01

Quote:

When is Enough Enough?
In a new Newsweek poll, Americans say they?re spending too much in Iraq with too little to show for it. And with the 2004 approaching, Bush is losing ground

By Jennifer Barrett
NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE

Aug. 23 ? Americans are increasingly pessimistic about the U.S. mission in Iraq, saying the United States should reduce its spending and scale back its efforts there, according to the latest NEWSWEEK poll.

SIXTY-NINE PERCENT of Americans polled say they are very concerned (40 percent) or somewhat concerned (29 percent) that the United States will be bogged down for many years in Iraq without making much progress in achieving its goals. Just 18 percent say they?re confident that a stable, democratic form of government can take shape in Iraq over the long term; 37 percent are somewhat confident. Just 13 percent say U.S. efforts to establish security and rebuild Iraq have gone very well since May 1, when combat officially ended; 39 percent say somewhat well.

Nearly half of respondents, 47 percent, say they are very concerned that the cost of maintaining troops in Iraq will lead to a large budget deficit and seriously hurt the U.S. economy. And 60 percent of those polled say the estimated $1 billion per week that the United States is spending is too much and the country should scale back its efforts. One-third supports the current spending levels for now, but just 15 percent of those polled say they would support maintaining the current spending levels for three years or more....




--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xochitl]
    #1846526 - 08/24/03 10:09 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

69% sounds good to me


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineFileSoup
member
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 142
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xochitl]
    #1846567 - 08/24/03 10:21 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Very interesting statistics however I believe Bush will win. Right now it does not look like there is a very strong Democratic candidate however that could change. I think many Americans still have the 9-11 connection with George Bush and that will make a lot of voters vote for him.


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xochitl]
    #1846576 - 08/24/03 10:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I'm concerned. Doesn't mean I'm not optimistic.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xochitl]
    #1846588 - 08/24/03 10:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I hope we can get to a point where we can get our guys out soon without compromising the stability of Iraq because if it doesn't happen soon I fear that we will pull out for the sake of the polls. Sad really.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: z@z.com]
    #1846590 - 08/24/03 10:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. Whatever option they choose someone here will give a reason why it was the worst possible choice


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: z@z.com]
    #1846621 - 08/24/03 10:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The only way we would pull out is if Dean got elected pres and he had to follow through on a campaign promise.

I think there will be some big news soon, concerning both more troops going in from various countries (6 or 7 already have troops there, India may send 17,000) and regarding discoveries made over the past several months.

I predict that September will be a very interesting month.



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: wingnutx]
    #1846731 - 08/24/03 11:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I hope you're right. I would hate to see us pull out too early.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,755
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 42 minutes
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: z@z.com]
    #1846733 - 08/24/03 11:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I hope we can get to a point where we can get our guys out soon without compromising the stability of Iraq because if it doesn't happen soon I fear that we will pull out for the sake of the polls. Sad really.





That would only happen if Bush based his foreign policy on what was in his best interest.







--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Learyfan]
    #1846737 - 08/24/03 11:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

In who's best interest is he acting? (I assume you don't mean the people of Iraq)


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: z@z.com]
    #1847778 - 08/25/03 10:40 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

One thing you can't blame Bush for is acting solely in his political interest like Clinton did. I think the poll is a good representation of what the public thinks. It could be going better, but it isn't the quagmire the media would have us think. I also don't think we will have to spend that much for anywhere near three years.


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
    #1852101 - 08/26/03 06:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Right. Bush is evenly balanced between political AND business interests. :crazy: 


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: hongomon]
    #1852743 - 08/26/03 10:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The point is he is not going to pull out before the job is done, no matter what some pole says. The '60%' of people who think we should scale back are fucking morons. Forget the pre-war argument. It doesn't matter now. We have to finish the job for the Iraqis, and for the rest of the world. If we leave Iraq before the job is done, it is destined to turn into another hotbed for terrorist activities like Afghanistan.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: d33p]
    #1853506 - 08/27/03 01:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't

What do you want man, sympathy? Don't go invading countries in defiance of international opinion and none of these problems will happen.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
    #1853519 - 08/27/03 01:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

but it isn't the quagmire the media would have us think.

Nothing to do with the media, more to do with the fact that more americans have died since the end of "major hostilities" than died before.

Anarchy reigns, there is little or no water or power and we are occupying a country that does not want us there. What exactly do you call a situation like that? Quagmire is pretty accurate.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
    #1853533 - 08/27/03 02:04 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

First- scale back does not entail not finishing the job. I don't see how you can call someone a " ing moron" for objecting to the expenditure of 1 billion dollars a week on this war. The United Nations has offered to help in the rebuilding if the United States will concede some control. What is needed here is a diplomatic solution, not a military one. The United States has proven its military might, and now it is time to give the country back to the Iraqi's as quickly as possible. In my opinion the U.N is in a much better position to do this, compared to the American military, as allowing the U.N to takeover will help prove to the Iraqi's that America is truly not interested in exploiting their country.

Second- The pre-war agruement is still important, as it is yet to be solidfied. Bush has still not proven to America that Iraq was the threat he made it out to be. If he cannot prove this, it will create a great rift of distrust, and in turn lower his standing in the polls.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: Xlea321]
    #1854132 - 08/27/03 09:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Nothing to do with the media, more to do with the fact that more americans have died since the end of "major hostilities" than died before.




True, but only 66 of them have been from hostile action since the end of major combat. The majority have died in accidents, heat related deaths, and illnesses. That is conveniently left out of the statistics the media is hyping up. The end of major combat operations is just that. No more tank divisions rolling across the country, and no more massive arial bombardments. No one ever said the war was over. In fact I believe we were told we had a long way to go.

Quote:

Anarchy reigns, there is little or no water or power and we are occupying a country that does not want us there. What exactly do you call a situation like that? Quagmire is pretty accurate.




Those are all total generalizations. MOST of the country is returning to a somewhat normal existance. Everywhere but the "Sunni triangle" basically. You have no evidence to back up your assertions that the majority of Iraqis don't want us there. The areas in the far North, central, and Southern Iraq are coming along. They are getting utilities restored. Local elections are happening, and Iraqis are working alonside coalition forces to rebuild the country. Now we have foreigners coming in, the likes of Al Qeada. All of these people want to see Iraq turn into a true quagmire. They want us to leave, and they want to take over the country. They see this as the main battleground right now. To be honest I would rather us fight them there than in the streets of New York or London.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: d33p]
    #1854152 - 08/27/03 09:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. Whatever option they choose someone here will give a reason why it was the worst possible choice





Well seeing as the people you are talking about think it was not just a mistake but a moral outrage to enter Iraq in the first place then any choices that follow are doomed to be seen as wrong arent they?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: GazzBut]
    #1854164 - 08/27/03 09:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

A moral outrage? Good one. I guess leaving Saddam in power, and allowing him to kill another million or so Iraqis would have been the 'moral' thing to do.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,709
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: "increasingly pessimistic" [Re: shakta]
    #1854233 - 08/27/03 11:00 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You've been here long enough to know that....

If the US does it, it's automatically immoral. (mostly)

If anyone else does it, it's moral.

To sum up.....

U.S.A. = bad.

Everyone else = good.

So using the above.... of course it's more moral to leave Saddam in power (no matter how many he has killed or caused to be killed).
:wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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