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Offlinewalk
ignorantwhiteman

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Dunedin, New Zealand
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
?+
    #1846088 - 08/24/03 07:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why do strain names often have a plus ie B+?
Doesnt a '+' or '-' indicate a haploid mycelium?
But i know that the strain 'B+' is not haploid as ive seen it fruit.

And why is it said that you can get a spore print of a strain, when spores give rise to a genetically different generation, and thusly new strains?


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Invisibleph_plus
Malkawian

Registered: 05/27/03
Posts: 556
Loc: Constantinople
Re: ?+ [Re: walk]
    #1846380 - 08/24/03 09:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i don't know the answer but this question doesn't belong to this forum.... :smirk:


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The word truth...... doesn't make any sense..... As if the word sense...... which isn't the truth.........


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InvisibleMagashM
Da Bud Guru
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Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 5,875
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Re: ?+ [Re: walk]
    #1846587 - 08/24/03 10:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Use to mean they were a larger growing shroom.


--------------------
All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?


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InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
Re: ?+ [Re: Magash]
    #1846886 - 08/25/03 12:20 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Basically you won't have a new strain, just another generation of the original strain. The genetics will be mostly similar, but after many generations could become adapted to indoor growing conditions and substrates (domesticated). It will still be basically the same strain as before. It would take many, many generations going from print to print before genetic selections could become visible.

The genetics of each spore from a single print are diverse enough for you to grow them out over and over without losing any desired traits.


--------------------
To give is to live...



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Offlinewalk
ignorantwhiteman

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Dunedin, New Zealand
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1850564 - 08/26/03 05:24 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, I dont understand:
"The genetics of each spore from a single print are diverse enough for you to grow them out over and over without losing any desired traits."


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Invisibledeanofmean
mycophagous

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 2,017
Loc: PNW
Re: ?+ [Re: walk]
    #1850590 - 08/26/03 05:48 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

no need to be sorry . the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask .
unless it's already covered in the FAQ  :rolleyes:
eventually the spores would evolve, from generation to generation to adapt to specific growing conditions .
but how long would this take ?
/me shrugs shoulders/ 


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InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
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Re: ?+ [Re: deanofmean]
    #1850643 - 08/26/03 06:55 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Basically each spore has its own set of genetic code, each different in its own right. After many generations genetic information will be passed and selected for (whether intentionally or not), causing a higher percentage of certain traits than others. Over time, these traits may be amplified and the strain may change in size or appearance or become suited to a single substrate for instance.

Genetic degradation can occur if there is limited material to work with. IE, as when working with only a single isolate. Then you are working with a single entity, which can only endure so many cell divisions, or could even have poor fruiting characteristics to begin with. You would then essentially be working with genetics similar to these in future generations, and you are limited to them only. When growing from spores, you have millions of compatible pairs, each capable of spreading the genes to further generations. If you get a poor isolate, you can always go back to the spores and grow out another batch. While each mated pair is essentially a sub-strain of the original, genetics are similar enough for it to be the same strain. Basically, a print will have many compatible pairs that have the genetic capability of spreading similar characteristics without deviating from the original. You could then grow them out over and over and still get the same strain in a sense.

What I said was a bit cryptic, and didn?t really make sense now that I think about it. I guess what I really meant to say is that there are millions on millions of spores in a print, keeping the gene pool packed with lots of different swimmers. When there are lots of genetic differences as within a print, there is a better chance of the desired traits to be passed to future generations.


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To give is to live...



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Offlinewalk
ignorantwhiteman

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Dunedin, New Zealand
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1850671 - 08/26/03 07:40 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah bro, i was being a grumpy bastard cos i thought that when a new generation is isolated from spores then that is, to be pedantic, a new strain.

But i do want to know what the + is for. I think Ive read fungal biology/morphology books that label haploid monokaryotic mycelia as either + or -.

I was wondering if the name B+ is a bastardisation from some old school, super fast running, haploid mycelia that could keep up with dikayrotic mycelium. Or some shit like that.


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InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
Re: ?+ [Re: walk]
    #1850702 - 08/26/03 08:28 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

walk said:
Yeah bro, i was being a grumpy bastard cos i thought that when a new generation is isolated from spores then that is, to be pedantic, a new strain.




Well, in a sense you are correct. It would technically be a sub-strain of the original but the genetics are close enough for it to be considered the same strain. Over hundreds of generations the strain may deviate from the original enough that it would appear to be a completly different strain, but its origins would be the same.

Quote:

But i do want to know what the + is for. I think Ive read fungal biology/morphology books that label haploid monokaryotic mycelia as either + or -.

I was wondering if the name B+ is a bastardisation from some old school, super fast running, haploid mycelia that could keep up with dikayrotic mycelium. Or some shit like that.




No. The + has no significance other than a name, marketing strategy. I think it is supposed to mean that the strain has been improved, but how (or through what methods) I do not know.


--------------------
To give is to live...



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Invisiblebotanisthype
P$ylocibe$ounDW@vE!
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Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 839
Loc: DECEPTICON MANOR
Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1851078 - 08/26/03 12:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

wow that was insightful, good thread


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Please +REP if i've been of any help... thanks!!!

Dinosaur of the Funny Family, though I have short arms, they fit in my GB... lol


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Invisiblepuggymalone
just looking forlove

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 212
Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1851179 - 08/26/03 01:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The thing that interests me is, even though there are millions of spores on a print, all the spores came from the same cap. If the cap is considered a single biologic, then it cannot create different genetic codes for all the spores. Unless the genetics of the spores some how mutate while being produced. It is like a human, there are millions of sperm in his nuts, and when he spunks his load millions of the little bastards come out, and they all have the same genetic coding!

If anyone can clear this one up it would be cool.
thanks
puggy


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InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
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Loc: #108768 in line...
Re: ?+ [Re: puggymalone]
    #1851254 - 08/26/03 01:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Well,

Look at it like this. Are your siblings that were created with that sperm identical? No, there is genetic variances between each sperm cell that cause our brothers and sisters to be different from ourselves. Same thing with a spore.


--------------------
To give is to live...



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Invisiblebotanisthype
P$ylocibe$ounDW@vE!
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Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 839
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Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1851270 - 08/26/03 02:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

HAHAHAHAH SO DRAMATIC ,,,,, :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2:


--------------------
Please +REP if i've been of any help... thanks!!!

Dinosaur of the Funny Family, though I have short arms, they fit in my GB... lol


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Offlinewalk
ignorantwhiteman

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Dunedin, New Zealand
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: ?+ [Re: botanisthype]
    #1852515 - 08/26/03 08:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You should find some info on meiosis and genetic recombination etc..
"and they all have the same genetic coding!" is a bit shady on the biology side of things.

How is a new 'strain' found, then proved to be different enough from others of the species to warrant the tittle of a new strain?


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InvisibleATWAR
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Registered: 01/26/03
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Re: ?+ [Re: walk]
    #1852607 - 08/26/03 09:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Usually it is found in different parts of the world, and isolate is taken from a fruit body (or prints), and the strain is grown out, sometimes domesticated (to make it less wild), and it is then marketed from there.

New strains could be selected for, with proper breeding and isolation, and it is possible to select for certain traits that you would like to express. I would imagine this would take a long time to do, over a large number of generations. But, the strain would still have genetic characteristics similar of the original. But it would more be a variation on a strain than a completely new strain. Sort of like mushrooms that have the + sign. Supposedly these were improved over the original (domesticated, better fruiting characteristics established, whatever the claim). In actuality a strain will stay very similar over many generations going from print to print. It is said though that you should vary your substrate, especially your initial spawn as to not get the mycelium accustomed to a single type of grain. In theory it would then perform poorly when grains were switched, leading to slow colonization.

I am currently involved in an ongoing process to see how hard it would be to select for genetic traits in mushrooms when using spores. It is far too early to tell, as I am only on the 5th generation (and have halted it for now). But from early conclusions, and experience growing print to print in general, the genetics do not ?fade?, or a strain does not really degenerate. You are growing them just like they grow in nature, spore to spore. Mushrooms stay similar over generations, with the same diversity between each individual fruit body. I do think I have noticed an improvement in the ability to colonize popcorn (since I wanted to see if it would adapt, it was originally a poor popcorn colonizer). This was noticed with the 2nd generation that was grown out on corn, and generally improved with each successive generation thereafter. But the actual specific form I am trying to express has not improved in numbers.

As I said, this is only the beginning of my experiments with this strain, and my experiments into duplicating natural selection. It is far too early for me to tell if this would even be possible, let alone how long it could take.


--------------------
To give is to live...



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OfflinePsilocybin_monkey
Shroomer

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 1,340
Loc: Dragon's Den
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1852643 - 08/26/03 09:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

B = big
+ = very
---------
very big shroom



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InvisibleTomandjerry58
Stranger
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,209
Re: ?+ [Re: Psilocybin_monkey]
    #1852668 - 08/26/03 09:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

so what does z mean?


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InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
Re: ?+ [Re: Psilocybin_monkey]
    #1852762 - 08/26/03 10:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybin_monkey said:
B = big
+ = very
---------
very big shroom

 




:grin: Excellent interpretation. The B+ is actually a very interesting mushroom. While not really on my favorites list; its density, size, and weight make it very appealing. It is above average in potency, and I especially like how the stems have a sort of twisted grain to them with distinct bell shaped caps before the veil breaks. The nice thick cap allows for easy hooking when printing (not mentioning the fact you can make many prints from a single cap since it is a heavy producer). All around it is an excellent strain considering all the positive characteristics.

In my experiences I have had Golden Teachers to grow bigger, and more consistently than B+. I have also had a few Treasure Coasts grow very large (but it is a wildly fruiting strain). These are the only ones I have grown that compare to B+ in size. But, neither of them has the robust qualities of the B+ strain. I give it:  :thumbup: :thumbup:

I would like to know where the B+ strain originated from. At least a general idea what part of the world... 


--------------------
To give is to live...



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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: ?+ [Re: ATWAR]
    #1852774 - 08/26/03 10:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The B+ cubensis has been around for a while. It was brought to us by a growner that went by Mr. G. There was a lot of controversy surrounding this mushroom for so long because Mr. G started off by telling everyone it was an azure/cubensis hybrid. Although at times it does grow some broadly umbonate caps like p. azurescens, it is just a unique cubensis. But a huge thanks to Mr. G, where ever you are these days, for bringing us such a beautiful mushroom. We like to refer to this one as "super strain". It really is a superior cubensis in many ways.

http://thehawkseye.com/

The B+ in my opinion is a bad ass strain. Of course it is only one of two strains my friend has grown. The other was AFR, and he does not like it as much, for now anyway.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
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Re: ?+ [Re: shakta]
    #1852904 - 08/26/03 11:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly what I did not want to hear. So many times I have seen strain information cut-n-pasted from vendor websites that usually is a poor description based more on sales and hype than actual strain characteristics. They make every strain sound good...

But, somebody out there must know something about this strain besides what this elusive Mr. G had claimed. I personally have not really seen any Cubensis grow similar enought to B+ for me to think it could be the same (or even close). The B+ is very unique.


--------------------
To give is to live...



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