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InvisibleIcelander
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Becker and Buddha
    #18446958 - 06/20/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Came to the same basic conclusions. 

Discuss.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18446973 - 06/20/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I never read that much of Buddha but it seems to me Becker was the one to portray death anxiety in the clearest light by some distance.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18447227 - 06/20/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

The Buddha's basic message imo is that our suffering comes from not comprehending and so not accepting  impermanence.  :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18447281 - 06/20/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

All I've really heard are a few quotes here and there tbh, though I like those quotes I've ever seen anything in depth on the subject by Buddha. I don't know, maybe I'm missing out here; what should I read about Buddha and what he taught, is there anything in particular?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18447288 - 06/20/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Dhammapada is a good place to start.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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InvisibleTropism
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18447690 - 06/20/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

In the engine of life, death is the flame.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander] * 2
    #18447727 - 06/20/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think Buddha came to conclusions: He understood mind, and tried to help people by teaching how to understand mind, and to see it directly & personally.
All of the problems that people struggle with are either economic, health, or mental, and economic and health issues often are worsened by a mind that is stuck in bad habits.

For the simple minded multitude a Buddhist religion exists as layers and traditions reciting suttras but it all boils down to the heart suttra which boils down to "form is emptiness and emptiness is form".


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18447776 - 06/20/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't think Buddha came to conclusions: He understood mind, and tried to help people by teaching how to understand mind, and to see it directly & personally.
All of the problems that people struggle with are either economic, health, or mental, and economic and health issues often are worsened by a mind that is stuck in bad habits.

For the simple minded multitude a Buddhist religion exists as layers and traditions reciting suttras but it all boils down to the heart suttra which boils down to "form is emptiness and emptiness is form".



Exactly, Buddhas entire message was nonconclusive,
Quote:

Icelander said:
The Buddha's basic message imo is that our suffering comes from not comprehending and so not accepting  impermanence.  :shrug:




Exactly. Impermanence of all things, especially conclusions.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: hTx]
    #18447879 - 06/20/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

what is so exact?

you are talking about acceptance and impermanence.
an action (passive maybe) and a concept.

and buddha was talking about mind and life.
what we are (nama rupa) not a concept of it -- direct experiencing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18447932 - 06/20/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what is so exact?

you are talking about acceptance and impermanence.
an action (passive maybe) and a concept.

and buddha was talking about mind and life.
what we are (nama rupa) not a concept of it -- direct experiencing.



everything is always changing

that is whats so exact.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18447979 - 06/20/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Came to the same basic conclusions. 

Discuss.



Some emphasis on the basic flight from reality of mankind is shared, but I thought Becker's conclusion was that some type of ultimately illusive ideal is necessary in one way or the other, which would be one important point of divergence.

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Invisiblecez
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18447983 - 06/20/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed :thumbup:

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18447992 - 06/20/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Becker talked about mind and life too, and never claimed to be exact as far as I can remember.

At the end of the day these guys are both two human beings saying things about life and human psychology, they should both be judged as such and neither receive special treatment.

For instance you say RGV that he came no conclusions yet you also say he understood mind. I don't think I'm being awkward when I say I see little difference between the two. I think it would be pedantic to split them too far.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18448006 - 06/20/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
All I've really heard are a few quotes here and there tbh, though I like those quotes I've ever seen anything in depth on the subject by Buddha. I don't know, maybe I'm missing out here; what should I read about Buddha and what he taught, is there anything in particular?




Try reading What makes you "not" a Buddhist, by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse. Very easy read and easy to understand.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18448015 - 06/20/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Something I posted in another thread.

Quote:

The Buddha nailed it. The failure to comprehend impermanence is the cause of our suffering. Becker would agree.  We construct a future as a buffer to our fear of impermanence.  The awakened one is not harboring such illusions and learns to live much more fully in the moment. The average person however, when losing the ability to construct a future feels their impermanence full on and sinks into depression.




--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: husmmoor]
    #18448020 - 06/20/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Came to the same basic conclusions. 

Discuss.



Some emphasis on the basic flight from reality of mankind is shared, but I thought Becker's conclusion was that some type of ultimately illusive ideal is necessary in one way or the other, which would be one important point of divergence.




I have no idea what you are talking about. I've read all his books and some several times.  Can you explain?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18448026 - 06/20/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't think Buddha came to conclusions: He understood mind, and tried to help people by teaching how to understand mind, and to see it directly & personally.
All of the problems that people struggle with are either economic, health, or mental, and economic and health issues often are worsened by a mind that is stuck in bad habits.

For the simple minded multitude a Buddhist religion exists as layers and traditions reciting suttras but it all boils down to the heart suttra which boils down to "form is emptiness and emptiness is form".




He certainly did come to conclusion imo.  He concluded the cause and cure of suffering.  He found the same cause as Becker did. The big difference I see in them is Becker thought there was no way one could completely erase suffering while the Buddha claimed to have accomplished it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18448068 - 06/20/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't think Buddha came to conclusions: He understood mind, and tried to help people by teaching how to understand mind, and to see it directly & personally.
All of the problems that people struggle with are either economic, health, or mental, and economic and health issues often are worsened by a mind that is stuck in bad habits.

For the simple minded multitude a Buddhist religion exists as layers and traditions reciting suttras but it all boils down to the heart suttra which boils down to "form is emptiness and emptiness is form".




He certainly did come to conclusion imo.  He concluded the cause and cure of suffering.  He found the same cause as Becker did. The big difference I see in them is Becker thought there was no way one could completely erase suffering while the Buddha claimed to have accomplished it.



IMO

Buddha took it one step further with his realization of impermanence and probably realized that death too, is impermanent. Thus creating the concept of reincarnation.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: Icelander]
    #18448074 - 06/20/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

husmmoor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Came to the same basic conclusions. 

Discuss.



Some emphasis on the basic flight from reality of mankind is shared, but I thought Becker's conclusion was that some type of ultimately illusive ideal is necessary in one way or the other, which would be one important point of divergence.




I have no idea what you are talking about. I've read all his books and some several times.  Can you explain?




I read Denial of Death in the library so I don't have it. Found this quote from here http://www.randallwatters.com/becker.htm which explains pretty well, p188-189, my emphasis
Quote:

Some people are more sensitive to the lie of cultural life, to the illusions of the causa-sui project that others are so thoughtlessly and trustingly caught up in. The neurotic is having trouble with the balance of cultural illusion and natural reality; the possible horrible truth about himself and the world is seeping into his consciousness. The average man is at least secure that the cultural game is the truth, the unshakable, durable truth. He can earn his immortality in and under the dominant immortality ideology, period. It is all so simple and clear-cut. But now the neurotic:

Rank calls this a paradoxical but deep insight into the essence of neurosis, and he sums it up in the words we have used as an epigraph to this chapter. In fact, it is this and more: it absolutely shakes the foundations of our conceptualization of normality and health. It makes them entirely a relative value problem. The neu­rotic opts out of life because he is having trouble maintaining his illusions, about it, which proves nothing less than that life is possible only with illusions.

And so, the question for the science of mental health must be­come an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that re­flects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?25 We will see the import of this at the close of this chapter, but right now we must remind ourselves that when we talk about the need for illusion we are not being cynical. True, there is a great deal of falseness and self-deception in the cultural causa-sui project, but there is also the necessity of this project. Man needs a "second" world, a world of humanly created meaning, a new reality that he can live, dramatize, nourish himself in. "Illusion" means creative play at its highest level. Cultural illusion is a necessary ideology of self-justification, a heroic dimension that is life itself to the symbolic animal. To lose the security of heroic cultural illusion is to die—that is what "deculturation" of primitives means and what it does. It kills them or reduces them to the animal level of chronic fighting and fornication. Life becomes possible only in a continual alcoholic stupor. Many of the older American Indians were relieved when the Big Chiefs in Ottawa and Washington took control and prevented them from warring and feuding. It was a relief from the constant anxiety of death for their loved ones, if not for themselves. But they also knew, with a heavy heart, that this eclipse of their traditional hero-systems at the same time left them as good as dead.



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Becker and Buddha [Re: hTx]
    #18448128 - 06/20/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I don't think Buddha came to conclusions: He understood mind, and tried to help people by teaching how to understand mind, and to see it directly & personally.
All of the problems that people struggle with are either economic, health, or mental, and economic and health issues often are worsened by a mind that is stuck in bad habits.

For the simple minded multitude a Buddhist religion exists as layers and traditions reciting suttras but it all boils down to the heart suttra which boils down to "form is emptiness and emptiness is form".




He certainly did come to conclusion imo.  He concluded the cause and cure of suffering.  He found the same cause as Becker did. The big difference I see in them is Becker thought there was no way one could completely erase suffering while the Buddha claimed to have accomplished it.



IMO

Buddha took it one step further with his realization of impermanence and probably realized that death too, is impermanent. Thus creating the concept of reincarnation.




Or Becker took it a step further and showed how belief in reincarnation is based in death/impermanence anxiety. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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