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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Overlay or something weirder?
    #18446536 - 06/20/13 10:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)



Hi fellas a did 5 quarts spawn to lb of coco and two quarts of verm with 3.5 quarts water which might have been on the low side at about 30 days ago. Let it incubate for 7 days and threw it in fruiting conditions, 23 days later still know pins and so I looked up overlay and that is pretty much what has happened. Now so the humidity wasn't high enough I'm guessing because I didn't apply a separate casing and the mycelium has pulled away from the side typical overlay I'm guessing but not even a single pin and so I deep scratched everything and threw a casing layer over it and hopefully in a week or so well have some action but I'm not 100% clear on what may have happened. A similar thing happened on a smaller tub where I got a good first flush and than no second the mycelium was all dead and not letting pins get through. How do I avoid this I never thought it would happen on two separate. grows. Thanks fellas

Marshall

p.s. the middle picture is my smaller tub but after that flush all the mycelium turned hard and no shrooms!


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Someone gets lucky every second but lets not forget about milliseconds

Edited by xxmdogxx (06/20/13 10:39 AM)

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OfflineLifeGiver
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18446583 - 06/20/13 10:51 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

while incubating did you leave it covered at all times? the co2 levels need to be high for the myc to fully colonize, after that you need to remove the saran wrap to promote fruiting and pinning.


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: LifeGiver]
    #18446996 - 06/20/13 12:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's not overlay, it's not even fully colonized.

Next time, let it get to 100% before introducing fruiting.


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: LifeGiver]
    #18447271 - 06/20/13 01:53 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i wanted to keep the humidity high as possible though wouldnt that dry it out and also now that i have scratched it and cased it just do that once it pops through?


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #18447275 - 06/20/13 01:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

thanks but now that I have scratched and cased it what should i do to make it fruit this time? thanks


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18447283 - 06/20/13 01:57 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

stop fucking with it,everytime you do you set yourself back


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #18447297 - 06/20/13 02:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

btw if it is fully colonized why was it not fruiting? thanks


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: cronicr]
    #18447299 - 06/20/13 02:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

dude the reason i fucked with it is because i read about overlay and if it is overlay than you have to fuck with it or it wont work but thanks for helping


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18447324 - 06/20/13 02:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

always check here before doing such things! overlay is not something you need to worry about with cubes:thumbup:


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: cronicr]
    #18447336 - 06/20/13 02:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

okay but it was 30 days no pinning and the other tub was not pinning after dunking 5 days later so what gives then?


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18447372 - 06/20/13 02:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xxmdogxx said:
okay but it was 30 days no pinning



then it was probly fucked to start, 30 days is too long for something not to colonize


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: cronicr]
    #18447410 - 06/20/13 02:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

so if it wasnt overlay than it could have been what moisture? its not too many things it could possibly be. Its not rocket science


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18447437 - 06/20/13 02:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xxmdogxx said:
so if it wasnt overlay than it could have been what moisture? its not too many things it could possibly be. Its not rocket science



moisture content,dirty spawn,bacteria,mold, temp,the fact that you didn't let it colonize, maybe the fact that you scratched it afterward there are a number of things that could have caused it


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: cronicr]
    #18447458 - 06/20/13 02:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i scratched it today lol spawn fine moisture 100% I mean it looks perfect but i think the humidity dropped in the past few days and it just didnt pin but anyway maybe I can recase it and get it to work like ive done with cakes before thanks


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18447465 - 06/20/13 02:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The major pinning triggers are in order of importance, full colonization, a decrease in CO2 levels due to increased air exchange(not gas exchange which is minimal), a steady rate of evaporation from the substrate or casing layer, and lastly, light.

Hyphal knots form best in 100% humidity, but I didn't list that because it's not a pinning trigger, but rather an environmental condition that is necessary. That's why we use casing layers. The casing helps to provide the 100% humidity right at the surface of the substrate where the hyphal knots form.

I have seen no correlation with temperature drop whatsoever. In the summer, my growing chambers are 10 or more degrees warmer than the open shelves I incubate on due to the heating effects of the lights. Even with a temperature increase, I still get wall to wall pinsets, so I don't consider temp drop relevant at all to tropical species. Other growers disagree of course, but that's just my observation after many years.

Full colonization of the substrate is the number 1 pinning trigger. Full colonization can be when the mycelium reaches the physical border of the container they are in, or when they run up against a biological border, such as a contaminant species. Either way, they see they have colonized all of what is available to them, so they then enter the next phase, which is reproduction.

There must be evaporation of moisture from the substrate for pins to form. A waterlogged substrate will just sit there forever without pinning. Even in 99% humidity, as long as you provide fresh air, moisture will be evaporating away from the substrate, and this is necessary for pinning. We mist to replenish the lost moisture, then allow it to dry slightly before misting again. This keeps the moisture content high, and keeps the humidity at the casing surface near 100%, but at the same time provides the evaporation of moisture that is a very important pinning trigger.

During colonization, we provide very small holes in the jars or tubs for gas exchange. We want a high CO2 environment during colonization, because this prevents the mycelium from consuming all of the substrate. The mycelium colonizes the substrate, but doesn't 'eat it all up' due to the high CO2 levels. During fruiting, we remove the covers to provide air exchange, which is at a much higher level then the minimal gas exchange provided during colonization. This increase in air exchange lowers the CO2 levels, and is a major pinning trigger. At this time, the mycelium begins to consume the substrate it has previously colonized, and we notice during fruiting that our substrates pull away from the sides of the container. This is not due to moisture loss, but rather due to the mycelium 'eating' the substrate and turning it into CO2, a waste product. It is easily proved that this shrinking isn't related to moisture loss, because even when we dunk a bulk substrate, it doesn't return to its pre-flush size.

Last, but not by any means least is exposure to light. Light does much more than just tell the mushrooms which way to grow. There are mechanisms in the light that stimulate the formation of hyphal knots as well, and light at the higher end of the spectrum(blue) definitely, absolutely stimulate more hyphal knots(which grow into primordia, which then morph into pins) than light at the lower end of the spectrum(red) This does not mean to get a 'mood light' with a blue lens, but rather to select lights such as metal halide, or much more economical is 'natural daylight' fluorescent that emit light at around 6,000 kelvin to 7,500 kelvin depending on the brand. Cool white fluorescent emit light at around 5,000 kelvin and the 'red' incandescents emit light at around 3,000 kelvin. The higher the light temperature in kelvin, the more stimulatory it is to hyphal knot formation. I hope this helps.
RR
hope that helps, gl bro!


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OfflineTheCyndicate
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18447847 - 06/20/13 03:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xxmdogxx said:
i scratched it today lol spawn fine moisture 100% I mean it looks perfect but i think the humidity dropped in the past few days and it just didnt pin but anyway maybe I can recase it and get it to work like ive done with cakes before thanks




  how did your spawn smell?  from the looks of your pics I would say you have a bacterial contamination  problem.
just a rule I have for my self i shake all jars 4  days before spawn run  they all recover by then. and if not I chalk  up to bacterial contamination.

cyn

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Offlinealabamamushie
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: TheCyndicate]
    #18448095 - 06/20/13 04:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If you just cased it why would you think it was overlay
There's no such thing as overlay on an uncased bulk substrate

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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18448174 - 06/20/13 05:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xxmdogxx said:
so I looked up overlay and that is pretty much what has happened.




:nojustno:

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: spacechildo]
    #18450281 - 06/21/13 01:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Overlay is bullshit and most of it relates to a picture of a normal casing layer in TMC that is incorrectly labeled as overlay.

A few months ago, I 'jokingly' said I'd ban the next person who asked an overlay question and it worked . . .until now. :lol:

What happens is one person asks about overlay, and for the next six months, every new grower thinks he has overlay.

I can guarantee you don't have it, since I've only seen it a handful of times, and I've been known to have grown a few projects in my day.  Full colonization of the casing layer is not overlay.  Give lots of fresh air and light, while misting a few times daily and you'll fruit soon.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9467709#9467709

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I've seen overlay two or three times in 40 years, so I doubt seriously you are seeing it, especially on an uncased bulk substrate.  It's common for new growers to mistake full colonization for overlay.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17163830#17163830

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
By definition, a bulk substrate can't get 'overlay'.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15803177#15803177

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen overlay in 40 years.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13797279#13797279

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Uncased bulk substrates should be left alone and covered until 100% colonized.  Overlay is a vastly misunderstood phenomena which only affects species such as agaricus(button mushrooms) which require a casing layer.

Whatever you do don't deep scratch.  That's a failed method which was disproved 30 years ago.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13547569#13547569



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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18450561 - 06/21/13 04:05 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

bloody overly fears again.

You had no casing layer for a start so you cant get overlay. its cubensis so your likely never going to see it.

I have some button mushroom kits, 3 of the damn things have overlay. which is annoying. fully colinised the casing layer into a thick matt. what do you expect when you get it from the pound shop though.

Not once have i seen it with cubensis.

forget you heard about overlay.

and stop messing with it


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: xxmdogxx]
    #18450864 - 06/21/13 07:49 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If that's been like that for more than 3 weeks, it is heavily contam'd. Looks like bacteria.

Toss it out :frown:


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: cronicr]
    #18451474 - 06/21/13 11:18 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yes thankyou for the info and everything went as you said but they just never pinned so I'm thinking the humidity ran out on the tub and not casing it is why it didn't pin but just one more question. My smaller tub pinned and fruited wonderfully and than the second flush all aborted and I dunked it and no shrooms. So what do people do to get a second flush to come up when the mycelium has already colonized the whole substrate anyway? Do you know what I mean, its not fuzzy white but hard and dead so to get a second flush do I have to scratch?


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18451481 - 06/21/13 11:21 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

no it has nothing on it but are there some tubs that just dont pin?


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Offlinexxmdogxx
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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: alabamamushie]
    #18451489 - 06/21/13 11:23 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well i "cased" it right when i mixed the spawn in putting some left over coir on top but it must have dried out nothing else explains why it didnt pin


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: spacechildo]
    #18451502 - 06/21/13 11:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

lol


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Re: Overlay or something weirder? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18451505 - 06/21/13 11:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

ok if you say so


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