Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
motivation & confidence
    #18427072 - 06/16/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Are they two sides of the same coin? It seems they are both necessary for what is commonly referred to as "drive," that people who are driven and ambitious are both motivated and confident in their abilities.

How do we cultivate these things? Personally, I have struggled with self-esteem since as far back as I can remember. I used to overcompensate, and be kind of a jack ass, but eventually the facade came crumbling down after delving into psychedelics and having to confront what I believe is the core of issue: perspective. I now read inspirational blogs to keep myself motivated and on a motivated path. Also, doing some sort of exercise that I know is good for my body and practicing mindfulness so as to have a sense of control contribute to my sense of confidence.

How much a role do you think motivation & confidence plays into our emotional well-being? Can one cultivate motivation & confidence if they are lacking it? How do you do it?


--------------------
full blown human

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: Penelope_Tree] * 1
    #18427138 - 06/16/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Confidence can be cultivated though training and practice and by putting yourself into semi-uncomfortable positions - let's say public speaking, for example. When you realize that your worst fear rarely manifests, then by and by you begin to relax and faith in your abilities increases.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePocketLady
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: Penelope_Tree] * 1
    #18427160 - 06/16/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I think motivation and confidence are definitely linked.  You can't be motivated to do something unless you have confidence in your ability to achieve.  I see it time and time again at work. Kids who believe they can do something do it. Kids who believe they can't don't even try. 

I've suffered from a lack of confidence all my life, and I think a lot of people do, some just hide it better than others. The secret seems to be learning to laugh at that little voice in your head that insists on telling you you can't.

I think motivation and confidence flow naturally if you truly love and accept yourself.  But it's seems like quite a long road from low self-esteem to complete self-acceptance.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePocketLady
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #18427179 - 06/16/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Confidence can be cultivated though training and practice and by putting yourself into semi-uncomfortable positions - let's say public speaking, for example. When you realize that your worst fear rarely manifests, then by and by you begin to relax and faith in your abilities increases.




Yeah that's definitely one way of doing it.  I think the other way is realising that even if your worst fear does happen it doesn't really matter.  Easier said than done though.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: PocketLady] * 3
    #18427754 - 06/16/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I talk loosely about confidence too,
but I seldom say drive with reverence to a person's motivation.

I do use the word interest
and I totally believe that if you allow yourself to be interested in something, then the rest falls into place.

i.e. I believe that if you pursue your interest, you will be practicing what you like and will become good at it, and within that activity sphere you will gain  confidence as a result of your interest.

I do not believe that you need to enter domains which you abhor in order to gain confidence, but after you have some knowledge of one sphere, and confidence there, you will  find it spreads into other spheres and you will have less fear and hesitation about other things.

this growth is not circular in all directions at once, but more like a spiral, as what you are interested in begins to connect with other things.

from some distance - and over some time, it may seem like you have a well rounded set of abilities all from following one core interest.

however if you have no interests at all (doubt that) you could be in a very difficult spot.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledustinthewind13
Fool
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18428690 - 06/16/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Are they two sides of the same coin?

In a way I think it is, if we're talking about intrinsic motivation. Or at least confidence is an integral part of motivation in this case. Extrinsic motivation on the other hand is not so much dependent on confidence as it is a lust for the prize it entails.

How do we cultivate these things?

As OC said or as Jim Morrison says “Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.”

Personally, I have struggled with self-esteem since as far back as I can remember. I used to overcompensate, and be kind of a jack ass, but eventually the facade came crumbling down after delving into psychedelics and having to confront what I believe is the core of issue: perspective. I now read inspirational blogs to keep myself motivated and on a motivated path. Also, doing some sort of exercise that I know is good for my body and practicing mindfulness so as to have a sense of control contribute to my sense of confidence.

I can relate to that.

How much a role do you think motivation & confidence plays into our emotional well-being?

A lot IME. Ever since my life fell off the cliff its been one of my major comforts that things will get better and that suicide might not be the best idea. It's also the only thing that will save me from not achieving my goals.


Can one cultivate motivation & confidence if they are lacking it? How do you do it?

By opening the doors of perception. How to get to the door or what key to use is up to the individual. Actively searching and meditating on possibilities might be a universal way of doing it. :shrug:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecez
 User Gallery
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,856
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18428696 - 06/16/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledustinthewind13
Fool
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18428711 - 06/16/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I talk loosely about confidence too,
but I seldom say drive with reverence to a person's motivation.

I do use the word interest
and I totally believe that if you allow yourself to be interested in something, then the rest falls into place.

i.e. I believe that if you pursue your interest, you will be practicing what you like and will become good at it, and within that activity sphere you will gain  confidence as a result of your interest.

I do not believe that you need to enter domains which you abhor in order to gain confidence, but after you have some knowledge of one sphere, and confidence there, you will  find it spreads into other spheres and you will have less fear and hesitation about other things.

this growth is not circular in all directions at once, but more like a spiral, as what you are interested in begins to connect with other things.

from some distance - and over some time, it may seem like you have a well rounded set of abilities all from following one core interest.

however if you have no interests at all (doubt that) you could be in a very difficult spot.




Interest might be the most important part of motivation IMO. :thumbup:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #18429088 - 06/16/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Was Jim Morrison free?:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledustinthewind13
Fool
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: Icelander]
    #18429112 - 06/16/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Do you see any other way of controlling your fears?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18431530 - 06/17/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I do not believe that you need to enter domains which you abhor in order to gain confidence, but after you have some knowledge of one sphere, and confidence there, you will  find it spreads into other spheres and you will have less fear and hesitation about other things.

this growth is not circular in all directions at once, but more like a spiral, as what you are interested in begins to connect with other things.

from some distance - and over some time, it may seem like you have a well rounded set of abilities all from following one core interest.

however if you have no interests at all (doubt that) you could be in a very difficult spot.




:thumbup: I definitely get what you're saying, and agree. I think it applies broadly and is a gentle enough method to increase confidence that it could be helpful to all types of people.


--------------------
full blown human

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMufungo
Coming at ya
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18435011 - 06/18/13 12:32 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
How do we cultivate these things?




Take a cutting from stock you already have. Plant it in the context where you want it to grow. Nurture and feed it. Then enjoy it at each stage of its development.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18435242 - 06/18/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I talk loosely about confidence too,
but I seldom say drive with reverence to a person's motivation.

I do use the word interest
and I totally believe that if you allow yourself to be interested in something, then the rest falls into place.

i.e. I believe that if you pursue your interest, you will be practicing what you like and will become good at it, and within that activity sphere you will gain  confidence as a result of your interest.

I do not believe that you need to enter domains which you abhor in order to gain confidence, but after you have some knowledge of one sphere, and confidence there, you will  find it spreads into other spheres and you will have less fear and hesitation about other things.

this growth is not circular in all directions at once, but more like a spiral, as what you are interested in begins to connect with other things.

from some distance - and over some time, it may seem like you have a well rounded set of abilities all from following one core interest.

however if you have no interests at all (doubt that) you could be in a very difficult spot.




I think I've kneecapped my motivation by undermining my interests in the past.  Of course, an active practice of disinterest suggests interest of another kind.

Perhaps that spiral you speak of can lose it's effective tension and splay out into darkness if one adopts the practice of severing their connections. 

This may take you to a difficult spot if you're hurtling so far out that the gravity of interest shrinks, can still be felt, but is no longer sufficient to pull you back. 

This process may inspire a neutrino-like confidence if survived, as the massive world and it's pull disappears.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18435288 - 06/18/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I talk loosely about confidence too,
but I seldom say drive with reverence to a person's motivation.

I do use the word interest
and I totally believe that if you allow yourself to be interested in something, then the rest falls into place.

i.e. I believe that if you pursue your interest, you will be practicing what you like and will become good at it, and within that activity sphere you will gain  confidence as a result of your interest.

I do not believe that you need to enter domains which you abhor in order to gain confidence, but after you have some knowledge of one sphere, and confidence there, you will  find it spreads into other spheres and you will have less fear and hesitation about other things.

this growth is not circular in all directions at once, but more like a spiral, as what you are interested in begins to connect with other things.

from some distance - and over some time, it may seem like you have a well rounded set of abilities all from following one core interest.

however if you have no interests at all (doubt that) you could be in a very difficult spot.




I don't necessarily think so.  I've known people with damned near savant like interests and abilities, who seem totally free while engaged in their passions, but then quickly resume their low self esteem hellish reality.  Sounds nice, but there are very passionate people who seem to transcend their insecurities through them, but don't seem to be able to transmute that into other areas of their lives in any fashion.  I agree in some cases, for some people one yes is what it takes.


Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Confidence can be cultivated though training and practice and by putting yourself into semi-uncomfortable positions - let's say public speaking, for example. When you realize that your worst fear rarely manifests, then by and by you begin to relax and faith in your abilities increases.





This is definitely been true for me, you can't learn to swim without getting in the water... I had a fear of drowning as a 6yo kid, and getting an Outstanding in my favorite school subject certainly didn't give me the self esteem to overcome that fear.  Some critical thinking helped, like reminding myself that learning to swim might just keep me from drowning, since a situation might arise where I didn't choose to be in water... but maybe I'm weird like that....  I think the deal breaker was standing there in the shallow end of the pool and watching my friends go off into the deep end...  Was kind of a fuck it moment where I just went for it....By the end of the day I was cannonballing off the diving board and having the time of my life.

Anyways, I'm sure we've already had many of these types of experiences, it's just a matter of remembering them.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (06/18/13 03:18 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18438287 - 06/18/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
...

I don't necessarily think so.  I've known people with damned near savant like interests and abilities, who seem totally free while engaged in their passions, but then quickly resume their low self esteem hellish reality.  Sounds nice, but there are very passionate people who seem to transcend their insecurities through them, but don't seem to be able to transmute that into other areas of their lives in any fashion.  I agree in some cases, for some people one yes is what it takes.

...




often a savant type of person has a kind of dumb interest, or proclivity, and it pertains to just one thing, that thing stops growing but becomes a fast ability, not a wide ability. there is little interest, it is just a trick or skill, it may be quite refined, but it is mechanical.
(flicking is one way of referring to a mechanical action that provides relief or pleasure)

I think with living interests, one thing leads to another, so the person will end up leveraging up the blocks to new knowledge and insight with what they already know. the interest keeps moving around their favorite topic, and spreads.

savants are not usually like that. they just let the affinity and ability work, and are pretty detached or even autistic.

that said, who knows where their autism is leading them, as it may actually be a rich private space. Note Temple Grandin has penetrated the veil of autism to be very highly recognized in society (PHD etc) for how she has used her gifts at communicating with animals. her gift is complexed with a lot of interest and additional developments and skills have come of it.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18438491 - 06/18/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I said savant loosely.

I have a friend who is simply the best electronic musician I know, but hasn't held a job or had a lasting girlfriend in a half a dozen years and is entirely paralyzed in many facets of life by low self esteem, but still drops the sickest beats I've ever heard.    He actually may have Aspberger syndrome, but it's hard to tell because it was a self diagnosis, and he almost brazenly collects new mental disorders and wears them as badges.  The dude simply loves to reinterpret his life in terms of what new way he is fucked up and eagerly explain to anyone who will listen, so he's also been bipolar & adhd and various other things all within the last year. Each new diagnosis supersedes the prior and re-explains everything :shrug:

Another friend I grew up with got a 36 in on his ACT tests, tested out in the 99% percentile on some military test, and was working down in Florida on satellites for the Air Force until he was court-martialed and sent to jail for 6mo for drugs.  Having a felony conviction is a blow to the ego - the dude lives with his parents now and has basically given up looking for a job, but this doesn't stop him from pursuing many of his interests fully, but those interests might serve as diversions to being more free from ultimately figuring out this bigger problem.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefalcon
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,036
Last seen: 1 hour, 46 minutes
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18438602 - 06/18/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

You're thinking of an idiot savant, the word savant does not preclude a wide interest or multiple talents, in fact that is what it usually conveys, only when you add the word idiot in front of it does it describe what you said it means.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18439168 - 06/18/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Well, I said savant loosely.

I have a friend who is simply the best electronic musician I know, but hasn't held a job or had a lasting girlfriend in a half a dozen years and is entirely paralyzed in many facets of life by low self esteem, but still drops the sickest beats I've ever heard.    He actually may have Aspberger syndrome, but it's hard to tell because it was a self diagnosis, and he almost brazenly collects new mental disorders and wears them as badges.  The dude simply loves to reinterpret his life in terms of what new way he is fucked up and eagerly explain to anyone who will listen, so he's also been bipolar & adhd and various other things all within the last year. Each new diagnosis supersedes the prior and re-explains everything :shrug:

Another friend I grew up with got a 36 in on his ACT tests, tested out in the 99% percentile on some military test, and was working down in Florida on satellites for the Air Force until he was court-martialed and sent to jail for 6mo for drugs.  Having a felony conviction is a blow to the ego - the dude lives with his parents now and has basically given up looking for a job, but this doesn't stop him from pursuing many of his interests fully, but those interests might serve as diversions to being more free from ultimately figuring out this bigger problem.




friend number 1 wants to explore the dark side and is becoming very successful in that, he is not leveraging his music to learn things in the world, and he is learning about illnesses to help difference and distance himself from others. His world is shrinking.

friend number 2 is not going to stay down but he has been beaten harshly by the feds. His world is growing again.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: falcon]
    #18439197 - 06/18/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
You're thinking of an idiot savant, the word savant does not preclude a wide interest or multiple talents, in fact that is what it usually conveys, only when you add the word idiot in front of it does it describe what you said it means.




savants are not necessarily enlightened, and they may be gamey about admitting their confidence and self sufficiency if they think it will engage another person to their advantage.

some are afflicted with emotional problems which are much more complex than confidence lacking.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: motivation & confidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18439376 - 06/18/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

friend number 1 wants to explore the dark side and is becoming very successful in that, he is not leveraging his music to learn things in the world, and he is learning about illnesses to help difference and distance himself from others. His world is shrinking.

friend number 2 is not going to stay down but he has been beaten harshly by the feds. His world is growing again.




Strangely I think you're right.  I flew home to visit my mother last week and spent some time talking to friend # 2 in person for the first time in a decade, and I've never heard anyone dealing with quite so serious problems speak so remarkably lucidly about their life.  Friend #1 has a gift of gab in his ability to use rhetoric to convince other people that he is irreversibly damaged to be enabled by them, it's incredibly manipulative and deceptive and his capacity as a wordsmith ultimately works against him.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* DNA Language Discoveries.- VERY interesting!
( 1 2 3 all )
gettinjiggywithit 4,901 45 09/27/04 03:27 PM
by 3eyes
* Circular trips, and timely trips cantara 883 3 12/01/01 11:20 AM
by Ishmael
* Penguin Turkey and becoming an Idiot Savant for a while. gettinjiggywithit 977 13 05/03/08 04:44 PM
by backfromthedead
* Confidence DoctorJ 1,699 9 03/13/04 09:13 PM
by Phred
* what motivates you to act morally?
( 1 2 all )
MrBump 3,232 29 12/16/04 11:39 AM
by DoctorJ
* Interesting evening...
( 1 2 all )
FlusH 2,563 29 12/12/09 04:35 PM
by OrgoneConclusion
* A One-on-One Thread: Motivating Shroomism 2003 World Spirit 1,034 17 07/23/03 10:37 AM
by Shroomism
* The New Model ... I find it interesting- -very Crobih 2,316 14 10/17/01 04:14 PM
by Crobih

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,197 topic views. 0 members, 10 guests and 34 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.