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Offlineiamu
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Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc?
    #15103677 - 09/19/11 10:04 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I hear it yields great results with vermiculite though...


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Offlineiamu
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: iamu]
    #15103808 - 09/19/11 10:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Nvm decided to go WBS spawned to coir without casing, but, if you know the answer it'd be good to know.


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Offlinesteelmonkey
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: iamu]
    #15104490 - 09/20/11 01:05 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Using coir as a casing layer is not a true casing layer its just really a extention of the substrate


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Offlineiamu
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: steelmonkey]
    #15104634 - 09/20/11 02:09 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah you pretty much just asked my question again. Maybe I was digging up some really old threads when I was reading about it used as a casing layer, but several people say they have good results. Plus theres a Tek on here for a 60/40 Verm/Coir casing. Someone must know!


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Edited by iamu (09/20/11 02:10 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: iamu]
    #15105109 - 09/20/11 07:43 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

iamu said:
Yeah you pretty much just asked my question again. Maybe I was digging up some really old threads when I was reading about it used as a casing layer




Prior to my experiments with coir as a bulk substrate, people used to say coir has no 'nutes', because it's advertised that way for growing plants.  However, no 'nutes' for plants and no 'nutes' for mushrooms are two totally different parameters.  Coir makes an excellent bulk substrate, especially when mixed with vermiculite, which the mycelium also digests for the minerals.
RR


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Offlineebrakim
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15105125 - 09/20/11 07:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

RR, I've seen you note elsewhere that "uncased coir fruits wonderfully.."

Is there much benefit to casing the coir, or would it not be worth the hassle?

I have 2 bulk trays of verm/coir/castings/gypsum that are almost ready to fruit, and I'm debating casing vs. not..


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Invisibledtowntoker
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: ebrakim]
    #15105259 - 09/20/11 08:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Casing adds another contamination vector and I don't personally fuck with it.  I've seen huge cased and invaded flushes on here so I really see no use.  It does make it less necessary to mist I guess.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: ebrakim]
    #15105266 - 09/20/11 08:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ebrakim said:
RR, I've seen you note elsewhere that "uncased coir fruits wonderfully.."

Is there much benefit to casing the coir, or would it not be worth the hassle?

I have 2 bulk trays of verm/coir/castings/gypsum that are almost ready to fruit, and I'm debating casing vs. not..




casing is more about the species not necessarily the substrate.

cubensis dont obviously benefit from a casing layer.

they just push out fruits in abundance fucking everywhere.


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Invisibler23martinshrm
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: iamu]
    #18426187 - 06/16/13 03:17 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I've done extensive tests with all kinds of casing.  When in doubt, use case 1/2 of your tub with one casing on the left, and 1/2 with another on the right. or 1/2 cased and 1/2 not.  That way you can truly see what is going on when it starts to pin.
Coco coir and vermiculite is by far the best casing for cubes.
better than 50/50+
casing Better than no casing..try it. Half cased and half not cased and see what happens.
and last but not least, i've tested out MGMC and that is the WORST casing ever. it is a joke. no pins.  don't waste your time.

Coco coir and verm is also an amazing substrate.  I just mix my spawn with the CocoVM mix, and case with the same CocoVM...voila...awesomeness!
Hope this helps
R23

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: r23martinshrm]
    #18426197 - 06/16/13 03:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

r23martinshrm said:
Coco coir and vermiculite is by far the best casing for cubes.



No, it's not.

Coir is not casing layer material, it is bulk substrate material.

Coir contains a lot of nutrients that the mycellium can digest.

A casing layer has little to no nutrients, and gets applied to a bulk substrate after full colonization for moisture retention and pinning.

Quote:

r23martinshrm said:
Coco coir and verm is also an amazing substrate.  I just mix my spawn with the CocoVM mix, and case with the same CocoVM...voila...



That would not be considered a casing layer, just an extra layer of bulk substrate, usually to cover exposed grains....this is not needed for cubes.

Unless you are applying this to your bulk substrate after full colonization, AND it does not fully colonize.

But since it is of the same nutritional value as the substrate, I can see it fully colonizing, and becoming useless.

EDIT: And you responded to a 1.5 year old post....good job!

Edited by PussyFart (06/16/13 03:25 AM)

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OfflineStratman
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: r23martinshrm]
    #18426211 - 06/16/13 03:31 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm very interested in other people's opinion on this topic. I'm still undecided as to what casing ingredients I'll utilize for my first grow.

After much reading on this site I've considered trying  all of the various types of casings to see for myself what works for me but I'd really prefer to skip the experimental process for now and get straight to the very best casing materials if possible.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: Stratman]
    #18426218 - 06/16/13 03:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Wish I could help, but I do not case my substrates.

I have heard that jiffy mix is pretty good.....straight out of the bag.

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OfflineStratman
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18426228 - 06/16/13 03:46 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Wish I could help, but I do not case my substrates.

I have heard that jiffy mix is pretty good.....straight out of the bag.




I'm not from the U.S. so I can't get Jiffy mix. I plan to spawn rye into tray using a SGC for fruiting.

Apparently I need  a casing layer as I will be at work for roughly 9 hrs/day and cannot babysit my cubes so they would run the risk of becoming too dry without a casing layer.

Am I correct in thinking that any of the usual casing materials (including coir/ verm) will work just fine for cubes whether or not they are pasteurized or sterilised?

From what I've read, when it comes to cubes the casing layer is purely to stop the bulk substrate from drying out.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: Stratman]
    #18426232 - 06/16/13 03:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stratman said:
Apparently I need  a casing layer as I will be at work for roughly 9 hrs/day and cannot babysit my cubes so they would run the risk of becoming too dry without a casing layer.



Just do monotubs....they are set and forget, and no need for a casing layer.

Even in a SGFC, a cube bulk substrate would still not need a casing layer, 2 misting/fannings a day would suffice.

Cubes do not need casing layers.

Quote:

Stratman said:
Am I correct in thinking that any of the usual casing materials (including coir/ verm) will work just fine for cubes whether or not they are pasteurized or sterilised?



Coir is not a "usual casing material", I explained why above.

But if you are going to use coir as a casing layer, then I would sterilize it. Not from experience, but from research.

Quote:

Stratman said:
From what I've read, when it comes to cubes the casing layer is purely to stop the bulk substrate from drying out.



But it is not needed if you provide the proper environmenet.

Monotubs, greenhouses, SGFCs, will all provide this, so there would be no need for a casing layer in any of those setups.

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OfflineStratman
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18426249 - 06/16/13 04:10 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Stratman said:
Apparently I need  a casing layer as I will be at work for roughly 9 hrs/day and cannot babysit my cubes so they would run the risk of becoming too dry without a casing layer.



Just do monotubs....they are set and forget, and no need for a casing layer.

Even in a SGFC, a cube bulk substrate would still not need a casing layer, 2 misting/fannings a day would suffice.

Cubes do not need casing layers.

Quote:

Stratman said:
Am I correct in thinking that any of the usual casing materials (including coir/ verm) will work just fine for cubes whether or not they are pasteurized or sterilised?



Coir is not a "usual casing material", I explained why above.

But if you are going to use coir as a casing layer, then I would sterilize it. Not from experience, but from research.

Quote:

Stratman said:
From what I've read, when it comes to cubes the casing layer is purely to stop the bulk substrate from drying out.



But it is not needed if you provide the proper environmenet.

Monotubs, greenhouses, SGFCs, will all provide this, so there would be no need for a casing layer in any of those setups.





Ok, so you're saying that its as simple as breaking up my spawn jar, tipping them into a tray and putting them into my SGFC?

Wouldn't it be much safer to provide my substrate with a top and bottom casing layer until I gain some hands on experience in cultivating?



Also, I've been reading about the pros and cons for a while now and I came across a post from RR last night which stated that when spawning rye a casing layer is "essential".

I assumed that anybody who disagreed were using marthas or other fully automated systems.

BTW, I'm planning to have a few mono's growing while I try out other methods including cakes and trays. After reading for quite some time I've decided try these methods out to see for myself. Looking forward to getting into agar which I'll begin when I birth my first lot of cakes.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: Stratman]
    #18426260 - 06/16/13 04:24 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

if your fruiting just grains without mixing with bulk, then yes you would need a casing layer to fruit, or alternativly you can mix with hydrated verm (rex effect) as grains dont hold anough moisture to suppert fruiting, they are just dont pin or perform extremly poorly if it does even pin.

Bulk substrates provide most of the water needed for fruiting and also offer some food too (some of which can be lacking in grains)

Simply break up your grains in the jar by bashing the jar on something like rolls of gaffa tap or a bycycle tire to breka them up, and simply layer your grains and bulk ontop of each other then mix up well and cover. Allow to colinise and then introduce to fruiting conditions

Personaly i prefer monotubs if doing bulk. No need for a shotgun fruiting chamber.

I have quite a few usefull links in my signiture


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: Stratman]
    #18426266 - 06/16/13 04:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stratman said:
Ok, so you're saying that its as simple as breaking up my spawn jar, tipping them into a tray and putting them into my SGFC?



No, you mix the spawn evenly with a pasteurized substrate material(spawning), in a tray or tub and let it colonize, then place it into the fruiting chamber when it's ready to be fruited.

If you want to fruit straight grains, then yes, a casing layer will be needed to retain moisture and stop the grains from drying out and contamming.

Quote:

Stratman said:
Wouldn't it be much safer to provide my substrate with a top and bottom casing layer until I gain some hands on experience in cultivating?



There is never a need for a bottom layer of anything.

A casing layer on a bulk substrate does nothing to stop contams, that is not it's purpose.

It is there for moisture retention, and is not needed for cubes.(unless just fruiting straight grains, and no bulk substrate.

Quote:

Stratman said:
Also, I've been reading about the pros and cons for a while now and I came across a post from RR last night which stated that when spawning rye a casing layer is "essential".



Yes, rye is a grain, and if fruited by itself, with no bulk substrate, it would need a casing layer.

If you spawn rye cube spawn to a bulk substrate, a casing layer is not needed.

Edited by PussyFart (06/16/13 04:27 AM)

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OfflineHobart Cutter
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: Stratman]
    #18426296 - 06/16/13 04:45 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I´d like to make a few points:

There really are no zero nutrition casing materials except maybe ball-bearings. Soil mixes, peat moss and even verm will supply *something* beyond water. And if you don't sterilize it, you have to wonder what those helpful bacteria lives off of, and what they produce.

So I wouldn't get hung up on that.

It's just that supplying nutes is not what it's there for. It's there to provide water and thin layer of super humid air. And maybe some protection if you have a pasteurized soil/moss based thing going.

Some materials can serve in both roles. (No need to be absolutist about it.)

-*-

If you are doing straight grains, chances are they have a lot more to give than their internal water reserves will allow. A casing can double the yield of rye. (You can also add water water between flushes, Violet style.)


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OfflineStratman
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18426308 - 06/16/13 04:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Stratman said:
Ok, so you're saying that its as simple as breaking up my spawn jar, tipping them into a tray and putting them into my SGFC?



No, you mix the spawn evenly with a pasteurized substrate material(spawning), in a tray or tub and let it colonize, then place it into the fruiting chamber when it's ready to be fruited.

If you want to fruit straight grains, then yes, a casing layer will be needed to retain moisture and stop the grains from drying out and contamming.

Quote:

Stratman said:
Wouldn't it be much safer to provide my substrate with a top and bottom casing layer until I gain some hands on experience in cultivating?



There is never a need for a bottom layer of anything.

A casing layer on a bulk substrate does nothing to stop contams, that is not it's purpose.

It is there for moisture retention, and is not needed for cubes.(unless just fruiting straight grains, and no bulk substrate.

Quote:

Stratman said:
Also, I've been reading about the pros and cons for a while now and I came across a post from RR last night which stated that when spawning rye a casing layer is "essential".



Yes, rye is a grain, and if fruited by itself, with no bulk substrate, it would need a casing layer.

If you spawn rye cube spawn to a bulk substrate, a casing layer is not needed.





Thanks for clarifying, both you and VedaSticks. That was really helpful :thumbup:

For some time I've been trying to get my head around why some people spawn to bulk in their teks while others choose to layer their spawn with a casing (and sometimes both).

I originally decided to go with Magash's "Rye bitches" tek in regards to casing (which uses a coir/verm layer on top and bottom of the rye spawn (in trays) but now I plan to spawn my grain to a bulk mix of coir, verm with some gypsum, cover, colinise and then put into fruiting conditions.

Does that sound about right?

Also, when I cover the tray, should I use crumpled wax paper or bubble wrap to cover the substrate or will foil over the top of the tray suffice?

I'm just thinking that maybe it could pay to restrict FAE while colonising.



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Edited by Stratman (06/16/13 05:02 AM)

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why would one use coco coir as a casing if its nutritious to myc? [Re: Stratman]
    #18426319 - 06/16/13 05:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stratman said:
I originally decided to go with Magash's "Rye bitches" tek in regards to casing (which uses a coir/verm layer on top and bottom of the rye spawn (in trays) but now I plan to spawn my grain to a bulk mix of coir, verm with and gypsum, cover, colinise and then put into fruiting conditions.

Does that sound about right?



Yes, mix the grains as even as possible with the pasteurized substrate, to take full advantage of every inoculation point.

If you need any more help....we'll be here....... :goodluck:

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