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cave
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Registered: 06/15/13
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Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem!
#18425427 - 06/15/13 10:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I searched the forums and did my best to research, but I have run into the same problem two grows in a row now. I'm waving the white flag and asking for help. I will try to provide every detail as best as I can.
My fruits are maturing way too early, as you can see from the pictures below -- no more than 1.5 inches at best.
- Strain: Pink Buffalo - Wild Bird Seeds. Did grain to grain, smelled good, no signs of contam visibly or by smell - Substrate: 80/20 Coir/Verm. Sub depth is about 3.5" - Lighting: 6500K, 12 hour cycle - Air: small oscillating fan on low (about 8-9 feet away from the tubs), and I fan about 3-4 times per day - Temp: ~78-80 degrees - Humidity: ~95% (I followed the suggestion of users here and did the wet towel thing to adjust it before use) - Casing: fairly thin. Sprinkled leftover sub over the top to make sure there were no visible seeds. - Used a plastic liner - Hydrated the seeds per Frank's guide
Pic 1: Outside of tub



On about day 12, it appeared to be fully colonized and I counted somewhere between 10-14 pins. At that point I removed the duct tape and put in the polyfill.
I fan about 4 times per day (once I wake up, when I get back from work, before I go to sleep, and once sometime in between). I mist lightly every other day or so, only when the top does not already have moisture.
I am now on about day 18 or so, and I have a fairly decent pinset I believe, but the fruits are small and they are opening prematurely (I've already removed about 10 of them).
I feel like I've taken the proper steps but my results don't agree with me. Please point out to me where I've gone wrong!
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18425438 - 06/15/13 10:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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did you use spores? could be genetics. everything else looks good at first glance
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cave
Stranger

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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: Psilosopherr]
#18425527 - 06/15/13 11:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I did MS innoc into a bunch of jars. I had one too many jars for a tub, and I used the remaining jar as a master to do grain to grain (and those jars became this tub).
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18425602 - 06/15/13 11:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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they are screaming for fresh air, you can tel because of the ring of mycelium at the base of your fruits, not the end of the world just something to think about and maybe adjust your top holes
there's also no need to measure humidity with a hygrometer you justt wanna watch for nice beads of moisture on the surface of your sub, some good condensation and a dry ring around your polly.
when you say casing layer did you mean like a 50/50 or just used some left over bulk? there's no need for either though and really just slows things down IMO.
how long did it take before it went into fruiting? most of the time it's available moisture to blame
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18425621 - 06/15/13 11:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cave said: - Casing: fairly thin. Sprinkled leftover sub over the top to make sure there were no visible seeds.
This is not considered a casing layer, just a top layer of bulk substrate.
It should fully colonize.
The early maturing fruits could be genetics, or could also be from improper moisture content.
The second flush should be bigger....fruit size that is.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT!
A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD,
SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List,
EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
*** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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cave
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18425623 - 06/15/13 11:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah, I have concerns about the myc around the base as well. I did dial it in following Frank's guide (not to say I did it perfectly) but the top ones are fairly loose right now... For the four bottom holes, I have one hole on each side as opposed to two holes per long-edges like I see in many pictures. Could that have an effect at all?
Could it help for me to possibly just remove one (or both) of the top polyfills temporarily? And is there such thing as packing the bottom polyfills too tightly?
I say casing layer very loosely... I just used leftover bulk and sprinkled it over the top to cover visible seeds.
It took about 12 days for about 10 or so pins to appear. Around day 17/18, I had to remove the first of the premature fruits.
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cave
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PussyFart]
#18425630 - 06/15/13 11:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
The early maturing fruits could be genetics, or could also be from improper moisture content.
The second flush should be bigger....fruit size that is.
At this point, I'm just about praying that it's genetics...
When you say improper moisture content, you're referring to the amount of moisture in the bulk sub when I put it into my tub, right?
When I picked up a handful and squeezed lightly, I got little to no drips. Then when I squeezed tightly, I got a small stream of water. Does that sound about right?
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18425641 - 06/15/13 11:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, I am referring to the substrate's moisture content.
And yes, what you describe is field capacity, which is a good thing.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT!
A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD,
SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List,
EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
*** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18425724 - 06/15/13 11:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
And is there such thing as packing the bottom polyfills too tightly?
Definitely. The fluffy myc around the bases is a big clue. And it could be genetics as well, it's possible to get small fruits - though it may just be the very strong pinset is leading to small fruits. Seen that as well. 
PS
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18425745 - 06/16/13 12:03 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cave said: And is there such thing as packing the bottom polyfills too tightly?
Bottom holes should be as tight as possible.(unless you don't have a fan running in the room)
FAE comes in thru the top loosely stuffed holes, and gets pushed out the bottom holes.
The mycellium around the bases could just be genetics, but more FAE wouldn't hurt.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT!
A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD,
SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List,
EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
*** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PussyFart]
#18425950 - 06/16/13 01:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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hacker i'm gonna include you in my sig for awhile and see how that goes
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18425961 - 06/16/13 01:14 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Let's watch my inbox blow up!
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT!
A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD,
SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List,
EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
*** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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cave
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/13
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PussyFart]
#18426008 - 06/16/13 01:35 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said:
Definitely. The fluffy myc around the bases is a big clue. And it could be genetics as well, it's possible to get small fruits - though it may just be the very strong pinset is leading to small fruits. Seen that as well. 
PS
Just out of curiosity, how does a strong pinset lead to small fruits? Is it because the higher number of pins are competing for a limited number of resources available?
Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Bottom holes should be as tight as possible.(unless you don't have a fan running in the room)
FAE comes in thru the top loosely stuffed holes, and gets pushed out the bottom holes.
The mycellium around the bases could just be genetics, but more FAE wouldn't hurt.
I do have a small fan running in the room (it oscillates). I'll try to loosen the top a bit more but it's barely hanging in there as it is.
And I'll take up your suggestion and try to increase FAE by loosening the top + fanning more often. I'm willing to try anything to improve my results at this point!
Thank you guys for your feedback so far!
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18426080 - 06/16/13 02:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cave said:
Just out of curiosity, how does a strong pinset lead to small fruits? Is it because the higher number of pins are competing for a limited number of resources available?
not so much the resources like nutes but moisture available, most larger fruits come in later flushes but i would be looking into cloning one of those pins while your on your first flush
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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cave
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/13
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Last seen: 11 years, 5 days
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18426794 - 06/16/13 09:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: not so much the resources like nutes but moisture available, most larger fruits come in later flushes but i would be looking into cloning one of those pins while your on your first flush
Interesting. If I clone one of the small fruits (I'm assuming from the flesh of it), I wouldn't be cloning genetics that lead to small fruits?
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Uhurungus
Avoiderer of Bullshit


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 838
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18426858 - 06/16/13 09:50 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cave said:
Quote:
cronicr said: not so much the resources like nutes but moisture available, most larger fruits come in later flushes but i would be looking into cloning one of those pins while your on your first flush
Interesting. If I clone one of the small fruits (I'm assuming from the flesh of it), I wouldn't be cloning genetics that lead to small fruits?
-------------------- I'm never 100% on anything, just close enough to risk looking foolish.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: Uhurungus]
#18426890 - 06/16/13 09:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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not necessarily, first just pick the right pin or pins lol, and even if you clone a larger fruit from a later flush(i do not rccomend) you can and usualy do only get the larger fruits in late flushes anyway. you could very well clone of those and end up with awesome fruits!
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18427167 - 06/16/13 11:13 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity, how does a strong pinset lead to small fruits? Is it because the higher number of pins are competing for a limited number of resources available?
Yup. Sometimes they can't even mature.
PS
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PussyFart]
#18427175 - 06/16/13 11:15 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bottom holes should be as tight as possible.(unless you don't have a fan running in the room)
I don't use these methods so Hacker's probably right on here. Tape 'em up, OP. 
PS
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cave
Stranger

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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18427295 - 06/16/13 11:48 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: not necessarily, first just pick the right pin or pins lol, and even if you clone a larger fruit from a later flush(i do not rccomend) you can and usualy do only get the larger fruits in late flushes anyway. you could very well clone of those and end up with awesome fruits!
Great! I have some blank agar dishes just hanging out so I will get to work then Thanks!
Quote:
PrimalSoup said:
Quote:
Just out of curiosity, how does a strong pinset lead to small fruits? Is it because the higher number of pins are competing for a limited number of resources available?
Yup. Sometimes they can't even mature.
PS
Oh wow I had no idea that could happen. How does one go about trying to rectify that? Longer consolidation time before introducing fruiting conditions?
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18427439 - 06/16/13 12:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Genetics IME. Or non-ideal conditions for pinning. I've had pinsets that actually detracted from production, no matter how much water I gave 'em.
PS
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18427463 - 06/16/13 12:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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with the thick white myc at the base of the stipe i'm guessing gentics and enviroment
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18427812 - 06/16/13 01:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would go for more real FAE, the myc growth is typically a sign of reversion to colonization which is a low FAE activity.
Nevertheless, mild fringing is likely genetics - there was nothing wrong with the FAE, pinning, or production of these, for instance:

PS
Edited by PrimalSoup (06/16/13 02:04 PM)
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cave
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18428037 - 06/16/13 02:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmm alright. Nothing I can do about the genetics with this tub so I will increase FAE as best as I can then.
I'm currently running my fan about 12 hours a day on low. Should I just run it 24/7, or on medium, or both?
I'll try to fan more often as well.
I'll update with pics from hopefully a much better 2nd flush!
Edited by cave (06/16/13 02:39 PM)
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18428385 - 06/16/13 04:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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There aren't many holes on the bottom for FAE... I'd replace those with minimal amounts.
PS
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cave
Stranger

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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18430621 - 06/17/13 02:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said:
There aren't many holes on the bottom for FAE... I'd replace those with minimal amounts.
PS
Sorry to ask so many questions--and thank you for your input, btw. Seriously, much appreciated. I'm just eager to leave no stone unturned to make sure I fix all of my errors.
Since I only have the four bottom holes and they are currently packed pretty tight, you're suggesting that I loosen those up a tad to allow for better FAE?
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18431707 - 06/17/13 12:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes I am.
I've never grown with that setup -I use a fan on a timer and negative pressure to provide air in this FC, built before the Internet even :

But your fruits look like they want more FAE to me, and that doesn't look like much ventilation. Consider it an experiment, OK?
It's like air circulation in a PC, it doesn't work according to your desires. FAE requires air exchange. Blow some smoke in that tub and see where it goes if anywhere. Then make changes and try again. If you don't smoke good on you, use a punk stick or something. 
PS
--------------------
if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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cave
Stranger

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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18434550 - 06/17/13 10:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said: Yes I am.
I've never grown with that setup -I use a fan on a timer and negative pressure to provide air in this FC, built before the Internet even :

But your fruits look like they want more FAE to me, and that doesn't look like much ventilation. Consider it an experiment, OK?
It's like air circulation in a PC, it doesn't work according to your desires. FAE requires air exchange. Blow some smoke in that tub and see where it goes if anywhere. Then make changes and try again. If you don't smoke good on you, use a punk stick or something. 
PS
That is an impressive set up!  
And a great suggestion -- the thought of using smoke would never have crossed my mind. I'll do that asap and adjust my bottom polyfills as needed.
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cave
Stranger

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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18435253 - 06/18/13 02:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some of the smoke escaped through the seam of the lid, much of it to the top fae holes. Little to no smoke came out of the bottom holes. I peaked inside the tub and saw that some of it had settled on the surface of the substrate.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18435264 - 06/18/13 02:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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you know smoking isn't even good for your grow
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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cave
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/13
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18436182 - 06/18/13 10:33 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: you know smoking isn't even good for your grow
Yeah I was wondering about that... but still a great suggestion by PrimalSoup and worth the experimentation. Two grows in a row now I've had really short fruits so even if it means hurting this tub, figuring out my FAE issue is priority!
But out of curiosity, what is it about smoke that's bad for it? I don't really remember my chemistry all that well but the CO? NO? CO2?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cave]
#18436797 - 06/18/13 12:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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it just acts like a little highway for mold spores, not the biggest deal in the world just something to think about
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18437179 - 06/18/13 02:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Glad I quit!
PS
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18437690 - 06/18/13 03:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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i'm glad you quit to, i was trying to quit with wiccan but i'm weak....i wonder how his journey is going?(i lost the thread)
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18438107 - 06/18/13 05:09 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I had to try cold turkey several times. It was hell. 
PS
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cave
Stranger

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Re: Small fruits, please help me diagnose the problem! [Re: cronicr]
#18439443 - 06/18/13 09:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Got it, had no idea. It was just a one time thing to inspect my overall set up.
Most of the smoke cleared out and some residue amount settled on the surface of the sub.. and by the time I checked again about an hour and a half later or so, it seemed to have dispersed entirely.
Hope that means my fae is ok haha.
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