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dusttodust


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 491
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panaeolus in fc *DELETED*
#18415711 - 06/13/13 07:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by dusttodustReason for deletion: nonrelevant info
Edited by dusttodust (06/18/13 05:19 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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i don't get y people try to automate fae in a sgfc just lift the lid and fan it out, they don't tolerate c02 as well as cubes do they love there fresh air
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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dusttodust


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 491
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Re: panaeolus in fc *DELETED* [Re: cronicr]
#18415736 - 06/13/13 07:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by dusttodustReason for deletion: nonrelevant info
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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i just don't think it's enough, manual attention has always done better for me in any case
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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dusttodust


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 491
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Re: panaeolus in fc *DELETED* [Re: cronicr]
#18438076 - 06/18/13 04:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by dusttodustReason for deletion: nonrelevant info
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tko
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/13
Posts: 496
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thats the best advice..patients n yea im with cron it takes 30 seconds to fan.. and an automated fan risks drying the sub out.
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Midnight Cyclone
StrangerDanger
Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 399
Loc: oo ess aye oo ess aye
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: panaeolus in fc [Re: tko]
#18439179 - 06/18/13 08:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know that pans are sensitive but you have to do something to initiate pinning.
Key pinning triggers, you ask?
Evaporation Fae High Humidity
I put evaporation first because it seems essential to getting a good amount of pins at around the same time vs scattered pins (like you get with MS).
I suggest misting the substrate lightly, extremely indirect. Such as setting your tray on the ground and spraying your spray bottle upwards, letting the mist gently fall towards your substrate. This fine mist should create very small balls of moisture. Misting should cease before the little balls of moisture begin to puddle. IME each of these EVAPORATE and end up a little mushroom head 
Of course, do not mist after pins begin to form. Cube pins will tolerate misting but pans are much more finicky.
FAE, LOTS of FAE. And high humidity speaks for itself, try to keep between 85-95% at the highest.
Good luck, let us know how it comes along! Midnight
Edited by Midnight Cyclone (06/18/13 08:35 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said: I know that pans are sensitive but you have to do something to initiate pinning.
Key pinning triggers, you ask?
Evaporation Fae High Humidity
I put evaporation first because it seems essential to getting a good amount of pins at around the same time vs scattered pins (like you get with MS).
I suggest misting the substrate lightly, extremely indirect. Such as setting your tray on the ground and spraying your spray bottle upwards, letting the mist gently fall towards your substrate. This fine mist should create very small balls of moisture. Misting should cease before the little balls of moisture begin to puddle. IME each of these EVAPORATE and end up a little mushroom head 
Of course, do not mist after pins begin to form. Cube pins will tolerate misting but pans are much more finicky.
FAE, LOTS of FAE. And high humidity speaks for itself, try to keep between 85-95% at the highest.
Good luck, let us know how it comes along! Midnight
close but not quite
The major pinning triggers are in order of importance, full colonization, a decrease in CO2 levels due to increased air exchange(not gas exchange which is minimal), a steady rate of evaporation from the substrate or casing layer, and lastly, light.
Hyphal knots form best in 100% humidity, but I didn't list that because it's not a pinning trigger, but rather an environmental condition that is necessary. That's why we use casing layers. The casing helps to provide the 100% humidity right at the surface of the substrate where the hyphal knots form.
I have seen no correlation with temperature drop whatsoever. In the summer, my growing chambers are 10 or more degrees warmer than the open shelves I incubate on due to the heating effects of the lights. Even with a temperature increase, I still get wall to wall pinsets, so I don't consider temp drop relevant at all to tropical species. Other growers disagree of course, but that's just my observation after many years.
Full colonization of the substrate is the number 1 pinning trigger. Full colonization can be when the mycelium reaches the physical border of the container they are in, or when they run up against a biological border, such as a contaminant species. Either way, they see they have colonized all of what is available to them, so they then enter the next phase, which is reproduction.
There must be evaporation of moisture from the substrate for pins to form. A waterlogged substrate will just sit there forever without pinning. Even in 99% humidity, as long as you provide fresh air, moisture will be evaporating away from the substrate, and this is necessary for pinning. We mist to replenish the lost moisture, then allow it to dry slightly before misting again. This keeps the moisture content high, and keeps the humidity at the casing surface near 100%, but at the same time provides the evaporation of moisture that is a very important pinning trigger.
During colonization, we provide very small holes in the jars or tubs for gas exchange. We want a high CO2 environment during colonization, because this prevents the mycelium from consuming all of the substrate. The mycelium colonizes the substrate, but doesn't 'eat it all up' due to the high CO2 levels. During fruiting, we remove the covers to provide air exchange, which is at a much higher level then the minimal gas exchange provided during colonization. This increase in air exchange lowers the CO2 levels, and is a major pinning trigger. At this time, the mycelium begins to consume the substrate it has previously colonized, and we notice during fruiting that our substrates pull away from the sides of the container. This is not due to moisture loss, but rather due to the mycelium 'eating' the substrate and turning it into CO2, a waste product. It is easily proved that this shrinking isn't related to moisture loss, because even when we dunk a bulk substrate, it doesn't return to its pre-flush size.
Last, but not by any means least is exposure to light. Light does much more than just tell the mushrooms which way to grow. There are mechanisms in the light that stimulate the formation of hyphal knots as well, and light at the higher end of the spectrum(blue) definitely, absolutely stimulate more hyphal knots(which grow into primordia, which then morph into pins) than light at the lower end of the spectrum(red) This does not mean to get a 'mood light' with a blue lens, but rather to select lights such as metal halide, or much more economical is 'natural daylight' fluorescent that emit light at around 6,000 kelvin to 7,500 kelvin depending on the brand. Cool white fluorescent emit light at around 5,000 kelvin and the 'red' incandescents emit light at around 3,000 kelvin. The higher the light temperature in kelvin, the more stimulatory it is to hyphal knot formation. I hope this helps. RR
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Midnight Cyclone
StrangerDanger
Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 399
Loc: oo ess aye oo ess aye
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: panaeolus in fc [Re: cronicr]
#18439519 - 06/18/13 09:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Only reason I didn't list light was that I considered it a secondary pinning trigger, and I listed the key pinning triggers. Of course I assume full colonization has been reached but it is a good point to make that a factor.
Thanks!
Actually, since I've moved into a GH, I've come to notice that the mushrooms orient themselves towards the light. I now turn and rotate my trays every couple days to help them not all grow at a 60 degree angle to the substrate
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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i know but high humidity isn't a pinning trigger and you missed full colonization
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Midnight Cyclone
StrangerDanger
Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 399
Loc: oo ess aye oo ess aye
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: panaeolus in fc [Re: cronicr]
#18439565 - 06/18/13 09:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: i know but high humidity isn't a pinning trigger and you missed full colonization
If high humidity isn't a pinning trigger, explain to me the need for a wax paper tek (false casing layer), or a casing layer at all? Doesn't it keep near 100% humidity at substrate level, which I usually hear is for pin formation?
This tone is not meant at a slight to you, I am genuinely curious.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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Hyphal knots form best in 100% humidity, but I didn't list that because it's not a pinning trigger, but rather an environmental condition that is necessary. That's why we use casing layers. The casing helps to provide the 100% humidity right at the surface of the substrate where the hyphal knots form. 2nd paragraph
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 6 hours, 7 minutes
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Quote:
Midnight Cyclone said:
This tone is not meant at a slight to you, I am genuinely curious.
no worries at all man!
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Midnight Cyclone
StrangerDanger
Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 399
Loc: oo ess aye oo ess aye
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: panaeolus in fc [Re: cronicr]
#18439675 - 06/18/13 09:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ahh, gotcha.
Not a pinning trigger but an essential of healthy hyphal knot formation.
Sorry, done with the hijack Hopefully you (OP) got something from this.
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dusttodust


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 491
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Post deleted by dusttodustReason for deletion: nonrelevant info
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Midnight Cyclone
StrangerDanger
Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 399
Loc: oo ess aye oo ess aye
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Quote:
dusttodust said: omfg yeees, someone took time and gave me advice, i am greatful.
my primary question is actually regarding the heavy colonization of casing layer, how does this look? its hard to imagine pin growing from the very colonized part of casing layer.
i am aware of pinning factors. i still have to find out how to establish best conditions in my shotgun fc but i think im doing good so far. (i made too big holes; i will stuff some polyfill on higher holes to keep high rh). also its about time to calibrate my hygrometer..
As long as you begin to stimulate pinning, and have the right fruiting conditions then it will start to pin eventually. There is nothing you can do about the heavy hyphal knot formation at this point anyways, so just be patient and follow earlier advice.
Good luck, Midnight
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