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OfflineMioticMushroom
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Registered: 07/12/12
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Crazy Substrate Idea?
    #18411470 - 06/12/13 11:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Hello to all my fellow mushroom Jedi. I have been growing for a bit now and have pretty much stuck to the straight and narrow. Ive done a few pf tek grows, changing up BRF for Organic Rye flour (which I prefer), and done a little experimentation with injecting cakes (currently working nicely) as opposed to dunking, and gravity feeding water to them. To be honest I am looking to expand my horizons. I have considered agar and liquid culture work (which I pan on), but I have come up with an idea and am looking for some feedback on the pro's and con's.

I realize that many people inoculate rye grain, and spawn it to manure/straw, choir...etc.. And have had great results.

My understanding through reading is that rye grain is harder to contaminate; however it produces smaller fruits than manure. I've also tried to read the little that I could find on Peptone use during agar work, I have not found many solid results positive or negative aside from the fact that some folks swear by it with agar.

All of this being said I am thinking of trying innovate on the standard PF Tek simply by switching up the substrate mix.

Ingridients for use / reason

-Peptone- Amino acid profile / nutrient booster / pH regulator

-Rye Grain- Solid nutrient / relatively easy to use /substrate compaction control

-Dehydrated manure- wonderful nutrient source and reportedly bigger fruits

-Vermiculite- water content

I want to put all of these into one mix within my jars, pressure cook them, and inoculate using a multispore syringe. I have not decided on ratios yet and I still would like to hear what the experts on here have to say.

Worth it to experiment? For the sake of conversation let's say 3/16 rye, 3/16 manure, 5/8 Verm, a pinch of peptone, and wet until it feels right.

Using filter disks as lids...and possibly a dry verm layer.

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OfflinecronicrMFacebook
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: MioticMushroom]
    #18411501 - 06/12/13 11:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

a little over kill IMO, the only thing i've ever tweaked was the flour and added gypsum and coffee. and as for your excellent nutrient source in manure i would have to say the standard pf tek(the brf) has alot more then your recipe.
i'm not trying to bash it i'm sure it will work if you get the consistency right


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OfflineMioticMushroom
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: cronicr]
    #18411682 - 06/12/13 11:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the input, any other insights?

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OfflineNovanity1
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: MioticMushroom]
    #18411994 - 06/13/13 02:05 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It's a great experiment, but none of it really matters unless you are working with isolates. There's just no other way to gauge the performance because varied results will be dismissed as difference in genetics.

Most substrates have more readily available nutrients than you'd think. Especially if you use a high spawn ratio (1:1 or 1:2). Your main focus should be working with agar and finding a high yielding/potent isolate, or using MS and cloning fruits that have the same type of results.


I'm totally with Cronicr on this one, not bashing at all, but it is probably an overkill.

Edited by Novanity1 (06/13/13 02:10 AM)

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OfflinecronicrMFacebook
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: Novanity1]
    #18412026 - 06/13/13 02:21 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i've found things like wbs and rye flour colonize/consolidate slightly faster then the brf and i believe it's because of the lower nutrition content, or the moisture content was slightly diffrent and the amount of water may have needed adjusting but i never did. with that said though they will never perform as well as brf in my opinion.
if i were you i would skip the peptone and do a 1:1:1:1 of water verm poo and rye flour


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: cronicr]
    #18412126 - 06/13/13 03:35 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Any and all of those will work as substrate options but goofing around too much with cakes often leads to contam problems. Remember that opportunistic contam loves a good experiment full of over rich substrate. Why not move on from cakes if ur bored and do some cased grows or spawn to a bulk substrate. Peptone is Very expensive and a waste of money in anything but agar.  And as was stated above if ur using multispore you won't really know if it was substrate or genetics that accounted for your good vs bad results. Bottom line:  play around but don't go overboard. Good luck.

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #18412173 - 06/13/13 04:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

In my opinion, the "PF Tek" was a pain in the ass. It was easier to just cook up some brown rice, put it in a bag and pressure cook it. Actually, we realized parboiled rice cooked better at one point and switched to that. People say it's less nutritious but I really didn't see a difference. Mushroom size could easily be controlled by the way we case it, though it takes a bit of experience to get that down.

Also, bags have the advantage of:

a.) being able to hold more, and
b.) you can just shoot sterilized water in them and mix it around to get X amount of inoculant

If we wanted even bigger, we'd just use pasteurized straw and some spawn. It's cool to experiment, but if you are asking if there is PRAGMATIC value, I'm kinda doubtful. People have already come up with ways to bulk manufacture mushrooms. I always liked Paul Stamets' books for that. He goes through pretty much everything.

EDIT: also...

a.) keep in mind you need autoclavable filter-patch bags, and
b.) if you are making inoculant like that you need a thick needle, or it will take a lot of work
c.) you cook the rice with 3/4 the water it says on the bag, I believe


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Edited by micro (06/13/13 04:04 AM)

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OfflineMioticMushroom
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: micro]
    #18416025 - 06/13/13 08:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I appreciate the support and criticism. Thanks.
Here is some information that I failed to mention.

- I have created spore prints, and grown from created syringes, mainly to keep strains without buying syringes, however in the process I have managed to repeat similar results as far as growth rates (from germination to primordia formation) and similar yields. I guess I have started the preliminary stages of isolating genetics. I am going to be attempting to start work with agar during these other experiments (kills the the time while mycelium saturates the sub.). I do realize that the problem with my testing is that I am changing to many variables at once: therefore if something goes really wrong or really right it is tough to isolate the exact value which caused it.

- I plan to try this with a new (to me) strain of cube from a shroomery sponsor multispore syringe.

- If I am successful at fruiting them I will then tweak one variable at a time to see what effect it has. I am sort of using this as a base line (an outlandish one) but i feel that it has a lot of potential in the future.

- You guys can't tell me your not a little bit curious to see how it goes.

- as far as bulk substrate, ill be messing around with that too as soon as the rest of my supplies arrive.

-Peptone is pricey, but I already have some due to the fact that I wanted to mess with agar.

- I have a friend who works as a technician at a hospital, so I can get any size syringes/ just about any sterile medical equipment I could possibly need free.

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OfflinePocketRevolution
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: MioticMushroom]
    #18416260 - 06/13/13 09:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think you have a couple things backwards.

Manure is less nutritious than rye, but less prone to contamination.

You would never want to leave hydrated rye exposed to the open air, as it would contaminate in a heartbeat.  However, pasteurized bulk substrates containing manure can be exposed to open air without contaminating precisely because they are less nutritious: most of the nutrients have already been extracted by the digestive system of the animal from which the manure came.

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OfflineLennybernadino
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Re: Crazy Substrate Idea? [Re: MioticMushroom]
    #18418896 - 06/14/13 01:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well I met a guy who instead of a traditional casing layer, he "cases" it with a nutrituious pasteurized coco coir and horse manure substrate , It would be like underspawning basicly

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