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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues
    #1840344 - 08/22/03 12:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Read the article here.
Some highlights...

Nearly one in five (18.6%) immigrant households receive Medicaid, compared to nearly one in eight (13.1%) households headed by a U.S. native.

Children in immigrant households are two and a half times more likely to get subsidized school lunch benefits (15.5%) than children in native households (5.8%)

Immigrant households are more than quarter more likely to receive food stamps than native-born households (6.7% immigrant households v. 5.3%)

Immigrants are a third more likely to be on SSI (Supplemental Security Income) than the native-born (5.3% v. 3.9%)

Immigrants receive the EITC (Earned Income Tax Credit) at nearly twice the rate of natives?25.5% of immigrant households versus 13.2% of native households.



--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840369 - 08/22/03 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840382 - 08/22/03 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There is no doubt that the INS policy needs a little, ahem, revamping.

Less nepotism, more merit-based immigration.  :smile:

Nice thread.

We aren't the policeman of the world anymore than we are its garbage dumpster.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: silversoul7]
    #1840469 - 08/22/03 01:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
So?



Think about it.

You are young enough where you will be paying the price (a very dear price) when the U.S. becomes bankrupt from excessive spending...
  • Is it good to bring people into your country when they will be a burden on the system?
  • How much more debt will the government be able to incur while giving enormous handouts to all comers?
  • What will happen when the baby boom generation retires en masse?
  • What will happen when foreigners stop buying U.S. government debt instruments?
  • What will happen if our economic downturn continues and worsens? In such cases there is an increase in government expenditures but a decrease in receipts.

A country cannot spend itself into prosperity, but it can spend itself into collapse.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840506 - 08/22/03 01:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We have spent ourselves into prosperity before, remember the huge deficits we ran during the Reagan administration? They were nearly as large as they are now. I saw an interview with Greenspan a couple of weeks ago, when he talked about this very thing. The economy has already started to turn around, and the recession was one of the shortest of all time.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840535 - 08/22/03 02:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
We have spent ourselves into prosperity before, remember the huge deficits we ran during the Reagan administration?



Those debts are yet to be paid. How will they be paid? By either future tax increases, monetary inflation or both. It is immoral and ignorant to spend the future earnings of the unborn. Economic cycles do not turn in a few years, it took decades for communism to collapse from such foolishness. We are headed down the same road albeit more slowly.

Quote:

They were nearly as large as they are now.



Please provide some proof. What was the amount of debt per person then and now?

Quote:

I saw an interview with Greenspan a couple of weeks ago, when he talked about this very thing. The economy has already started to turn around, and the recession was one of the shortest of all time.



Greenspan is still working, many others are not. Vocalizing lies does not make them true. We are headed for a very big fall, in no small part engineered through Greenspan's monetary policies.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840539 - 08/22/03 02:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree completely. I am talking about national deficits here. Were we not just in a suplus a couple of years ago? If so, how are those debts still owed?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: there
Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840557 - 08/22/03 02:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

umm. deficit spending is annual, the national debt is cumulative, they're not the same thing.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840558 - 08/22/03 02:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You've fallen prey to the government smoke and mirrors game. A couple of years during the Clinton administration, the U.S. did not have to borrow extra money for on budget items, however debts have continued to pile up in other areas and older debts were not paid off but refinanced.

Would you care to address some of the other questions and points that I brought up to SilverSoul?
  • Is it good to bring people into your country when they will be a burden on the system?
  • How much more debt will the government be able to incur while giving enormous handouts to all comers?
  • What will happen when the baby boom generation retires en masse?
  • What will happen when foreigners stop buying U.S. government debt instruments?
  • What will happen if our economic downturn continues and worsens? In such cases there is an increase in government expenditures but a decrease in receipts.



--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840560 - 08/22/03 02:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here read this. It states my case perfectly pretty much, and I am lazy. :wink:

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent021203.asp


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840575 - 08/22/03 02:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Tom Nugent's article does not address any of the points that I brought up, would you care to?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840602 - 08/22/03 02:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think most of your points assume that we are doomed because we are running a large defecit, so I think it addresses most of them well. As far as your immigrant questions go, I think we should seal off our borders, and kick out the illegals. If someone wants to come here they should do it legally. We both know that this is not going to happen until the majority of the country stands up and bitches about it. No one running for office, that has a chance, wants to piss off the Hispanics.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840727 - 08/22/03 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I think most of your points assume that we are doomed because we are running a large defecit, so I think it addresses most of them well.



Actually, they are mostly questions that I would like to get some well thought out answers to. The article does not address them at all, it is an apologist's essay for bad public policy. The current generation is wrong and selfish to burden those who do not yet have the right to vote with the bill of their expensive public policies. It is wrong for Democrats to do it and it is wrong for Republicans to do it.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840740 - 08/22/03 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The fact remains that the last giant defecit dissapeared in the 90s. Do you have a case that shows the article I posted not to be true? You calling it an apolgists essay, doesn't seem very well thought out, when recent history seems to bear it out as being true.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
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Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840775 - 08/22/03 03:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
The fact remains that the last giant defecit dissapeared in the 90s.



The facts show otherwise, you are wrong and our national DEBT is greater than ever.

The reason I brought up those points/questions up was to prompt others to think about things, the posting of that link does not show that you have given the subject critical thought. If you refuse to contemplate the questions why do you bother to respond?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840800 - 08/22/03 03:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I thought I was. So sorry to have offended you. I was just trying to discuss it with you. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840814 - 08/22/03 03:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The fact remains that the last giant defecit dissapeared in the 90s

oh yeah, all our problems will dissapear.

did you read what I posted earlier? you're confusing deficit spending with the national debt. the debt incurred (due to deficit spending) in the 80's is still with us even though the deficit spending dissapeared in the 90's. and todays deficits will add even more to the national debt, even if the economy turns around and we get into surpluses again.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840830 - 08/22/03 03:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

here's the national debt as of now:



it's not gonna go away after a few years of surpluses.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1840834 - 08/22/03 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You two are right. I was confused on the subject. As far as deficit spending goes, I think the article shows the truth about that. Now that I understand the difference I agree with you Auto. The part I find funny about it are the projected deficits and surpluses in the budget that have been predicted in the last several years. The projections swing so far either way in a relatively short time. I think projecting either is kind of ridiculous, since it all depends on what they will spend and receive in any given year.

Since I now understand the difference between debt and the budget, I have a few questions. Isn't most of the debt owed to people who own bonds? If so, how does that work?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1840850 - 08/22/03 03:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Assuming there are 300 million people in the country, the debt is about $22,000 for each of them. That sucks. So basically, we need to fix the economy, start penny-pinching in Washington, and pay it down? The reason I say improve the economy first is because the government would be able to pay more on the debt if it had more coming in.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840853 - 08/22/03 03:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

a lot of it is in the form of bonds, if you have an IRA, you might have some without even knowing it. at some point, people are going to want to collect it when they retire.. and a lot of people are going to be disappointed the way things are going.

I think it was kind of inevitable that we would be in deficit spending again, considering the poor economy and the 9/11 attacks, but Bush is making things much worse with massive tax cuts and new big government spending.



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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840881 - 08/22/03 03:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why didn't we pay down the debt any during the surpluses of the 90's or did they?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840889 - 08/22/03 03:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The tax cuts make sense to me to stimulate the economy and it has worked before. The big government spending doesn't. A lot of it is due to the war though, but not all of.


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Anonymous

Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1840893 - 08/22/03 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

gee dub just passed massive tax cuts.

tell him to stop dicking around and get something done, damn it


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: ]
    #1840897 - 08/22/03 03:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can you elaborate on what you are talking about?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840989 - 08/22/03 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

alright, back to the topic at hand.

You are young enough where you will be paying the price (a very dear price) when the U.S. becomes bankrupt from excessive spending...

I wonder if the government can really declare bankrupcy and refuse to pay back the debt? a lot of it is owned by average americans... they'll probably just sell more bonds to pay back the old ones and leave the problem for future generations to deal with.

Is it good to bring people into your country when they will be a burden on the system?

you can't say they're all burdens on the system.
some immigrants come into this country with a good education and job skills and become productive members of society, paying taxes and enriching the economy. other immigrants come here without any education or job skills and get low wage jobs, paying little to no taxes and getting a disporportionate amount of goverment aid, as that article pointed out.

our immigration policy should discriminate based on merit, but the problem is that if we did that, it would inevitably fall along ethnic lines, which would be controversial to say the least. and I don't think any politician would risk his career on that.


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OfflineDeepDish
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Autonomous]
    #1840995 - 08/22/03 04:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

     

Is it good to bring people into your country when they will be a burden on the system? 


The statistics are interesting, yet to get a better picture on how much burden immigrants are really placing on the systems you have too look at how much money of the buget they are consuming.  Many immigrants (both legal, and illegal) also play vital roles in American society, mostly doing the jobs that nobody else wants to do.  I know several Mexican immigrants (who I think are legal) that found their way to Nothern Maine, and spend weeks at a time, living in the woods and planting trees for paper companies.  A good precentage of the farms in this area also rely on migrant workers. 
Now if these immigrant workers were not here, many of the employers in this area would have great trouble filling them. 

How much more debt will the government be able to incur while giving enormous handouts to all comers?

    I would hardly call the spending on social programs the United States does as "enormous".  Look at the national debt for most European nations; not only is is much lower than ours, but they provide many more handouts for their citizens.  Now if you were talking about coporate tax handouts also, then that presents a major problem. 

   
What will happen when the baby boom generation retires en masse?

  No solutions for this one.  Maybe enact a society like "The Giver"  :wink:



What will happen if our economic downturn continues and worsens? In such cases there is an increase in government expenditures but a decrease in receipts.

      This is what has been happening almost every year since the early 80's.  Realize that out of all the presidents since then, Clinton has been able to acheive the biggest surplus.  The main flaw with Reagenomics (corporate tax relief), is that it relies on corporations to use the money to expand, and hence provide more jobs for Americans.  Corporations, however, are profit driven entities (as profit makes or breaks them on the stock market) and will act in direction that maximizes their profit.  Many times this can include downsizing, and moving business overseas, both which help short term profit and in my opinion hurt Americans.  Now if you give this money directly back to the people, it will be immediatly injected back into the economy; as instead of using it to inflate stock prices, it will be spent on material goods. 


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1841166 - 08/22/03 05:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Here read this. It states my case perfectly pretty much, and I am lazy. :wink:

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent021203.asp 


That article makes a HORRENDOUS mistake.  The author only looks at the short term effects.  He shows that if you increase spending and cut taxes, the short term effects are positive.  Well no duh!!!  If I take an extravagent vacation around the world, stay at the finest hotels, eat caviar and drink Dom Perignon, OF COURSE I will be better off in the short run.  But what about the massive debt I've just racked up?  In the FUTURE, I won't be able to take any more extravagant vacations, because I'll have to use my money to pay down my massive debt.  The author is too shortsighted to consider this in his article. 


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: Cornholio]
    #1841186 - 08/22/03 05:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I understand that. The point is that deficit spending will help the economy, which is what we need in the short term. The thing that needs to change is we need to spend any future surpluses on the debt and cut spending on stupid shit. Tax cuts aren't stupid shit. The people in Washington need to start spending like they are spending their own money, not some endless fountain of cash. Sometimes though, you have to spend more than you receive like now.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1841277 - 08/22/03 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Sometimes though, you have to spend more than you receive like now. 


My personal belief is that when times are tough, you spend up to what you have.  When times are good, you pay off the debt.  You should never keep endlessly running it up, because the more debt we have the less money we have for other necessary things.  Currently, every American has to pay an average of $2,000 per year on INTEREST for the national debt.  Can you imagine how much better off we'd be if that money was actually doing something???  :tongue: 


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1841749 - 08/22/03 08:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You sound like the kind of guy who just pays the minimum monthly balance on his credit cards while the interest keeps building up. That's essentially what the Bush admnistration is doing. They keep spending more and more money that the country's supposed to pay back later, and the interest keeps going up on it. I, on the other hand, don't charge anything to my credit card that I can't pay off at the end of the month. Then when the bill comes, I pay off the full amount. If the federal government followed this example, we wouldn't have such a massive debt.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: silversoul7]
    #1841773 - 08/22/03 08:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don't start with me. I am debt free except for my house and my car. Both will be paid for in 3 years. I agree that the debt is ridiculous. The only way to pay it off is to have more income, and less spending. Unfortunately it looks like no one cares. Clinton didn't do anything to pay off the debt, even when there was a surplus. I think the problem lies in the way our system works. Every President wants the people to be happy, and they want them to be comfortable. They need to get reelected, so they do that. Since the President can only be in office for eight years they do what they can, and pass the buck to the next administration. After looking at the way the debt has gotten larger almost every year for the past 200 years, I don't know the answer. This isn't a Bush thing. This is a government thing.

The only solution I see is to get someone in office, and a lot of people in Congress dedicated to paying down the debt. This apparently is not a priority to most Americans.


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Anonymous

Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1842223 - 08/22/03 11:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What a great thread overall.

Nice dialogues and explanations.

I have watched your posts for a while now.  This one gives you a 5.  You are willing to learn.  That is rare. :wink:


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: ]
    #1842240 - 08/22/03 11:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks man. I would never clame to know everything. I learn a lot here. Of course like most of us, I will post tripe about shit I know nothing about sometimes. :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Immigrant Welfare Scandal Continues [Re: shakta]
    #1842263 - 08/22/03 11:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your honesty is a refreshing breeze.

Serious.


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