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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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f**kin trich, every time!!!
#18403139 - 06/11/13 01:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Since my first grow ever, which was from 50/50 manure / straw ordered from outgrow, gypsum and verm, which was a nice phat grow for my first time, I keep getting trich in my tubs.
Its stressful...cuz, I'm a patient guy who understands, contams will happen and one must deal with them n gain experience from it to move forward. However, my last 3 attempts of creating a successful tub has been a fail.
Like I said my first tub was manure/straw/verm/gypsum...and it fruited amazing results.
The last 3 I've tried were off of coir/verm/gypsum. And I just can't f**kin get this coir down. The first time I tried damiens coir tek. The second and third time I pasturized in the bucket and then just to be sure, I pasturized on the stove in big pots.
A properlly pasturized substrate, and colonized mycelium, shouldn't get contammed.
Help me out here, wtf am I doing wrong. I'm tired of the trich, I feel like I'm growing trich these days instead of shrooms.
Let's see: I try to critical think n retrace my processes. My temps got a little too high during pasturization. I believe a lot of the substrate got sterilized instead of pasturized...I "pasturized" 3 times...the first 2 pots got to like 170 180 core temps of the jars. But the last pot the core temps were 165 170. I read up on shroomery that if all of the substrate is sterilized except for a lil that's pasturized....the good bacteria will spread around still. What else? I read that trich sporeulates and goes everywhere at a micro level. So maybe when I've lifted the lid to check on previous tubs, trich got into my fruiting area at a microscopic level. But...I put the tub into colonizing outside of the fruiting area. Duct taped it and all b4 putting it in
Has anyone else had troubles with coir? Is it not the coir, its my pasturizing techniques? Can u guys teach me something good....I thought I had this but the past 2 months have been nothing but fails.
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Civ
Pinning



Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 2,537
Loc: California
Last seen: 3 months, 22 days
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eliminate the poo and straw, just spawn to some verm, see if the trich is there still- otherwise its in your grains, as it always is, but its germinated now and got a slight head start on your myc. Sometimes you gotta toss batches of grains out, or waste time dealing with trich,
-------------------- "...Gal's seem to hate the thought of blending chicken shit in a blender.
So, wash it well afterwards & DON'T tell them..." -Agar
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: Civ]
#18403991 - 06/11/13 04:15 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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But my grains were colonized nice. No molds no contams, nice healthy white 100% colonized and consolidated jars. And a fully colonized jar is contam resistant.
Even if I spawned to just verm, I pasturize the verm too....so all bad bacterias should be dying off during pasturizing right? Unless i'm over doing it, and sterilizing instead....then when I go to mix it up...if I got a bad contam persay on my hands while I mix the substrate...it gets in. Idk. But yea, i pasturized the verm too. And my jars were healthy healthy.
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B H O


Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 675
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Quote:
ConcreteWaves said: But my grains were colonized nice. No molds no contams, nice healthy white 100% colonized and consolidated jars. And a fully colonized jar is contam resistant.
Even if I spawned to just verm, I pasturize the verm too....so all bad bacterias should be dying off during pasturizing right? Unless i'm over doing it, and sterilizing instead....then when I go to mix it up...if I got a bad contam persay on my hands while I mix the substrate...it gets in. Idk. But yea, i pasturized the verm too. And my jars were healthy healthy.
Isn't tricho white before it releases spores?
Also, how are you pasteurizing? Are you maintaining the right temperatures for the right amount of time?
Edited by B H O (06/11/13 04:24 PM)
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: B H O]
#18405250 - 06/11/13 08:25 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Contaminated grains are something you should consider especially if proper pasteurization isn't helping. I don't know if you're doing g2gs but that's one way jars can become contaminated without showing any signs before spawning.
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: B H O]
#18407704 - 06/12/13 10:25 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: Contaminated grains are something you should consider especially if proper pasteurization isn't helping. I don't know if you're doing g2gs but that's one way jars can become contaminated without showing any signs before spawning.
yes i am doing G2Gs of my albino a+. Is there something else I can do besides knocking up from spores? (takes too long to wait for spores to germinate in my opinion, when g2g is the actual culture, goes way faster)
Quote:
B H O said:
Quote:
ConcreteWaves said: But my grains were colonized nice. No molds no contams, nice healthy white 100% colonized and consolidated jars. And a fully colonized jar is contam resistant.
Even if I spawned to just verm, I pasturize the verm too....so all bad bacterias should be dying off during pasturizing right? Unless i'm over doing it, and sterilizing instead....then when I go to mix it up...if I got a bad contam persay on my hands while I mix the substrate...it gets in. Idk. But yea, i pasturized the verm too. And my jars were healthy healthy.
Isn't tricho white before it releases spores?
Also, how are you pasteurizing? Are you maintaining the right temperatures for the right amount of time?
Trich IS white before it releases spores, but i've been dealing with trich now to the point i can easily tell the difference between trich and myc, theyre both white, but look completely different.
Also - no, that's the thing I believe. I dont think my pasturizing was 100% proper. The internal temp of the middle of my jars during pasturizing should get to 165 degrees, then I let it stay at 165 for 1 hour. Right? Well sometimes the temp got to like 175 180. The water itself would push 200 degrees, but internal substrate temp (i put my sub into jars then pasturized)would get to 165-185. I felt like maybe I was sterilizing the substrate instead of pasturizing it, and when I took it out to mix it into my tub, maybe my hands were dirty or something airborn got in.
I was also told though, even if you sterilized the entire sub except for 1 jar that was pasturized properly - that properly pasturized jar with good fighting bacterias when mixed in with the rest, takes over the rest of the sub.
I dunno. Should I try coir again? Or say F**K it. I wonder if it has to do with climate, or the coco coir I bought. Someone in another post says coco coir naturally has trich in it cuz they let the coco fibers decay for awhile before compressing these bricks.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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There's nothing wrong g2gs in general, just have to be very sterile about it. If the master jar gets mold spores in it during a transfer then you can wind up with a large amount of contaminated jars. The mold won't be able to actually grow in the master jar since it's fully colonized but the spores will be transferred along to any uncolonized jar and the new jars will generally colonize before mold has time to start sporulating and become obvious. It only takes the tiniest bit of mold mycelium to create a foothold that allow it to colonize a bulk sub.
People use different pasteurization temps but basically the center of the substrate should reach 150 to no more 170 and stay at that for an hour. It's actually extremely difficult for mold spores to germinate on coir, vermiculite or gyspsum so contamination usually begins on other additives or on the spawn. I've actually switched steriizing my coir for the sake of simplicity and still haven't run into mold since I've started doing (albeit I started sterilizing less than a year ago). Just telling you that though to make a point, pasteurization is the way to go even with coir if your having contamination problems.
Some coir for gardening use has Trich spores added to it. If pasteurized though those spores will be killed. The coir used in reptile bedding which seems to be what most people use doesn't have spores added.
One other thing. Spawning by no means needs to be done in sterile conditions but keep mine if you've been dealing contaminated substrates recently it is possible to contaminate tubs while preparing them with contaminants carried on your clothes and hands.
Edited by Kizzle (06/12/13 12:12 PM)
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: Kizzle]
#18408264 - 06/12/13 12:22 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Gah...it's very frustrating. And wasting money and precious time. I feel like there's trich spores airborn all around my apartment -.- prolly not really, but I went from growing and loving to grow mushrooms....to now, not being able to f**kin grow, and getting fed up with the shitty results, to the point where i'm down on money instead of up, I may have to quit.
I'm gonna keep g2g xfering the rest of my grain to these albino a+ jars, but like i said, not seeing results makes this more of a hastle than a hobby.
The way I g2g xfer is.... i get out my still air tub, just a big tub with 2 cut holes in it. I wipe it down with bleach germicidal cleaner.
I get all the jars I want to g2g xfer to and the main jar thats colonized and put them in the bathroom. I then put on a mask, and latex gloves. I alcohol wipe my gloves together, and then I alcohol wipe all the jars. I take everything on the counter out the bathroom and bleach germicidal cleaner down the counter, the mirror, and some of the walls around, ill also spray some into the air. Ill then wipe the jars again, and place them inside the still air box.
I'll alcohol my gloves one more time b4 entering the still air box. I'll quickly loosen all the lids of the jars, then take out the colonized jar, and empty the contents into my hand. So i'll hold the cake in my hand as I 1 after another take off the lid completely, crumble a bit of culture into the jar, then close it. Until all my jars have culture in them, and until my cake is gone. I'll make sure all jars are tightened and secure. Then lift up the still air box, and start cleaning up n putting the bathroom back to normal.
Which seems to me, efficient g2g xfer yea?
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Sounds good except actually touching the substrate, big contamination risk there even if the gloves were disinfected with alcohol. You should break the grains up by shaking jar and then pour some directly from the master jar into the receiving jar.
I don't know if you did it that way because it was too hard to shake the grains apart but it can be done. The grains are easier to shake if you've added gypsum when you prepared your jars and also if you rinse the grains well before soaking/boiling and allowed them to dry until they appear dry on the outside before loading up the jar and PCing.
A technique for testing the grains before the loading the jars is to place some on a pieace of toilet paper, if it leaves a wet mark they haven't dried long enough. Wet grains will stick together making them hard to break apart by shaking.
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: Kizzle]
#18408611 - 06/12/13 01:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well - i collect myself n my thoughts. I decide to keep pushin along, another setback, f**k it - shit happens, over n over again.
This time around: My g2g xfer is gonna be exactly how u said - im gonna had some gypsum to the jars, about how much for a pint jar for a quart jar?
I'm gonna do the wet test on the toilet paper/tissue paper. Cuz sometimes they do clump together.
My pasturization technique....I think i over did it n began sterilizing jars, and maybe my hands had bacteria on it when i was mixing this all together, yea?
I'm thinking about also going back to all the grow areas that i've got trich, and clean down the entire areas very well. Like starting fresh in a sense.
What's crazy is the first tub i grew very nicely....my sterilzation techniques were mediocre. These 2 quart jars of B+ I grew in jars without polyfil lol. They just had 2 holes poked ontop. And I threw tap water in with my pasturized substrate cuz i didnt like the field capacity, and never repasturized lol.
Just not gettin it.
I bought my co co coir from a hydroponics store. Organic CoCo Fiber (CoCoCoir) it says on it.
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Do I soak the gypsum with the grain? Or do I just had a few table spoons to each jar right before I PC them?
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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YO! Triple post, fuck it, just had an idea! >.> Shrooms WILL grow directly off of a grain cake...they wont be as potent, and SHOULD be added to a bulk substrate, but dont NEED to be. >.> SO cant I take out 1 pint size grain cake...and if it gets trich, it's my grains from g2g xfers. If not, its my pasturizing teks. ?? Good idea?
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B H O


Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 675
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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yea gypsum soaked with the grain. idk a few tables spoons might be over doing gypsum. i don't remember the right ammounts but I'd double check that.
A way I like to g2g is with a sterilized spoon. I'd dump my master jar in a ziplock bag and use my spoon to break it all into half inch chunks. Idk it might be complicated but I think I learned it from a tek on here, and it's worked for me so I've never done different.
Also I've never used a glovebox or a flowhood, but a small bathroom also with not very many problems.
You are right about trich being everywhere tho. It always has been, always will be.
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: B H O]
#18409432 - 06/12/13 04:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
B H O said:
You are right about trich being everywhere tho. It always has been, always will be.

well, i wanna know what some of u guys would do in a situation where ur first grow was perfecto n every one after that has caught trich. I can try the bag idea...but do i have to sanitize the inside of the bag beforei dump the cake in it? And if it's closed...cant i just crumble it up open the bag and dump into the new jars?
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Edited by ConcreteWaves (06/12/13 04:30 PM)
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B H O


Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 675
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Yea tell me about it. I've had a point where i wasted 3 or 4 months and a few hundred pounds of grain. It takes patience. don't let that green take the best of you.
I wouldn't sanitize the inside of the bag, they should be sealed and good to go as is out of the box.
yea im sure you can do that too. what ever it takes to keep your hands off of your colonized grains.
Do it in a really small room without windows, like a walkin closet or a bathroom. No carpet is a plus too. Keep the door shut, don't run a fan. I feel like unless your working under a laminar flow hood, air movement is just blowing trich spores everywhere.
Also, what are you using for lid filters? and are you using the correct ammount of water in your PC? I've noticed my cut out tyvek discs get a little wet when i overfill which (since it is woven material) is perfect for harvesting all sorts of bacteria.
correct me if im wrong. It's been a while :P
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: B H O]
#18409875 - 06/12/13 06:09 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
B H O said: Yea tell me about it. I've had a point where i wasted 3 or 4 months and a few hundred pounds of grain. It takes patience. don't let that green take the best of you.
I wouldn't sanitize the inside of the bag, they should be sealed and good to go as is out of the box.
yea im sure you can do that too. what ever it takes to keep your hands off of your colonized grains.
Do it in a really small room without windows, like a walkin closet or a bathroom. No carpet is a plus too. Keep the door shut, don't run a fan. I feel like unless your working under a laminar flow hood, air movement is just blowing trich spores everywhere.
Also, what are you using for lid filters? and are you using the correct ammount of water in your PC? I've noticed my cut out tyvek discs get a little wet when i overfill which (since it is woven material) is perfect for harvesting all sorts of bacteria.
correct me if im wrong. It's been a while :P
drilled 1/2inch holes on the top of the jar stuffed w/ polyfil
i used to fill up the PC to the fill line it tells me, but my polyfil was getting wet, so i fill up the water about half way up the jar.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,904
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 3 minutes, 11 seconds
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only put about an inc or 2 in the bottom of my pc
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: cronicr]
#18410728 - 06/12/13 08:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Earlier today, I was being hard on myself. After doing alot of brainstorming, ive come up with the strategies ive spoken about here + info you guys have brought to the table.
I decided, maybe I will give coir more time. I cant just give up on a substrate MANY people grow with. It's something in my process...or better yet...it may not be my process, it may be that when I got trich the first time, it sporeulated over my home. Now the grow area is microscopically contamed, i just cant see.
I've decided that, instead of getting 4 quarts per tub each time...and wasting 4 quarts of spawn. I should slow it down...and start smaller with the coir. Trial and error with little tupperwares in my greenhouse. If they go bad, its not as bad as losing 4 quarts of spawn...if it only takes like 1 pint for a small tupperware maybe 2. Thats way better. I believe it's the smart thing to do until I get coir down pat. And pasturizing my own etc.
Question though: When pasturizing in jars, should the fill level of the water be above the substrate inside the jars?
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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You could make some extra coir/verm substrate and leave it unspawned to see if it still contaminates.
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ConcreteWaves



Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 648
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: f**kin trich, every time!!! [Re: Kizzle]
#18411020 - 06/12/13 09:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: You could make some extra coir/verm substrate and leave it unspawned to see if it still contaminates.

your right! >.> I should've done this the whole time >< can i also leave a cake without mixing it to bulk, to see if the cake contams? cake of rye
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Edited by ConcreteWaves (06/12/13 09:58 PM)
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