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Ran-D
Registered: 12/19/10
Posts: 16,323
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18399702 - 06/10/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I enjoy the act of learning to shoot, I've just never been able to read instructions and do something. I'm definitely a hands on learner.
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o8u
Taxa Collector
Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 4,148
Loc: United States
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18400122 - 06/10/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmm, I have a lot of experimenting to do and a lot to learn. I was thinking that a longer focal length would give a deeper DOF, but according to this article, the difference is pretty much negligible. Thanks again for all your help Gravija
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Ran-D
Registered: 12/19/10
Posts: 16,323
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: o8u]
#18400129 - 06/10/13 10:27 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
o8u said: Thanks again for all your help Gravija
Seconded
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18403133 - 06/11/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gravija said: Yes! If you have to stop down lower than f 10 to get your entire subject in focus then you are TOO CLOSE TO YOUR SUBJECT.
I beg to differ. Don't you think about composition and perspective first and then work out the settings on your camera that would achieve the result you're looking for?
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Back off of it until the entire thing is in focus at f 10 or lower.
But that will also change the composition. See above. While you have a point, you're simply making a different photograph - one that may have the DoF you're looking for, but a different composition.
As to the subject of diffraction: it's obviously a real effect, but only a problem if you intend to view 100% crops a lot or if you intend to print on relative large formats. Especially in macro work, a smaller aperture (and the associated diffraction) with a large depth of field is usually a better tradeoff than a bigger aperture and a smaller DoF. Of course, YMMV.
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o8u
Taxa Collector
Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 4,148
Loc: United States
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: koraks]
#18403191 - 06/11/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I went out and shot this
at the 11 different stops my lens could do in aperture priority mode. Even at higher than 100% magnification, I really couldn't see much difference in sharpness between f8 and f22. Outside that window, image quality noticeably suffered, but I wound up deciding the f16 shot looked the best.
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Gravija
Make way for the cavalcade
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 9,063
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: koraks]
#18403868 - 06/11/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
I beg to differ. Don't you think about composition and perspective first and then work out the settings on your camera that would achieve the result you're looking for?
No need to beg! I'll happily differ with you on this point. Of course one must compose one's shot. Typically, I frame my shot so the picture I want fills my entire, un-zoomed screen. Then, I apply some simple geometry to determine the position of the lens that will result in my shot occupying 2/3 or less of my screen. In post, I crop the photo as needed to achieve the frame I originally composed. The loss in image quality is negligible. I do use a pretty nice macro lens though.
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koraks said: As to the subject of diffraction: it's obviously a real effect, but only a problem if you intend to view 100% crops a lot or if you intend to print on relative large formats. Especially in macro work, a smaller aperture (and the associated diffraction) with a large depth of field is usually a better tradeoff than a bigger aperture and a smaller DoF. Of course, YMMV.
How is a defracted, blurry image ever a better trade off than a pristine sharp picture full of detail? Why do macro photogs spend countless hours focus stacking, if a shot at F32 is a better alternative? To get a macro picture at f32 you must increase your iso or decrease your shutter speed, dramatically increasing chromatic aberrations. Is this an acceptable price to pay for a defracted shot?
Thanks for participating in this conversation, koraks. Your input is always appreciated.
08u- That last Mycena shot is great! Something I noticed though( this is something I have an enormous problem with myself) is that there is a bunch of plant matter, leaves and sticks and such, in the background of the shot, distracting the eye from your subject. I've started keeping long tweezers in my camera bag for cleaning stuff like that out of the frame.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18403943 - 06/11/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
o8u said: at the 11 different stops my lens could do in aperture priority mode. Even at higher than 100% magnification, I really couldn't see much difference in sharpness between f8 and f22. Outside that window, image quality noticeably suffered, but I wound up deciding the f16 shot looked the best.
I find my shots look the best around f/16 as well. For macro work, they look best at around f/22.
I try to arrange the shot so I can use the largest aperture possible, but when I am with lots of people I just leave it at f/16 and flash everything.
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Gravija said: How is a defracted, blurry image ever a better trade off than a pristine sharp picture full of detail?
The diffraction loss is pretty small even at f/32 unless you are heavily cropping.
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Why do macro photogs spend countless hours focus stacking, if a shot at F32 is a better alternative?
They have too much time on their hands.
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To get a macro picture at f32 you must increase your iso or decrease your shutter speed, dramatically increasing chromatic aberrations. Is this an acceptable price to pay for a defracted shot?
Usually it is. Part of your subject being out of focus is a much worse defect than diffraction introduces.
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Gravija
Make way for the cavalcade
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 9,063
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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You don't have to have part of your subject out of focus, you can increase your distance from the subject in order to utilize a larger aperture.
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Gravija
Make way for the cavalcade
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 9,063
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Quote:
The diffraction loss is pretty small even at f/32 unless you are heavily cropping.
We are talking about the difference in sharpness between f10 and f16+ here. The difference in sharpness and loss of light is huge on my lens, but you use an L series
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18404062 - 06/11/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Right now I have the Canon EFS 18-200 on my camera, I'll have to try the same shot with this lens and my L series 100mm with all possible DOF's, and then make the 64 images into an animated gif. And make another at 100% size, which will show a lot more difference.
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Gravija
Make way for the cavalcade
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 9,063
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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That would be awesome.
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o8u
Taxa Collector
Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 4,148
Loc: United States
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18406201 - 06/11/13 11:52 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gravija said: 08u- That last Mycena shot is great! Something I noticed though( this is something I have an enormous problem with myself) is that there is a bunch of plant matter, leaves and sticks and such, in the background of the shot, distracting the eye from your subject. I've started keeping long tweezers in my camera bag for cleaning stuff like that out of the frame.
Wow, it's funny how you can miss what's right in front of you. The shot would definitely look better with a less busy background. Tweezers are going in the kit
I've also been using a tinfoil reflector like suchen recommended, and it's made a huge difference in the quality of my shots. I haven't really delved into flash lighting, but recently I've been using some white sew-on velcro as a diffuser for my pop up and it looks way less harsh. I've also heard a strategically sliced ping pong ball or translucent white film canister will do the job, and this ringflash emulator looks promising...
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija] 1
#18406818 - 06/12/13 03:17 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gravija said: No need to beg! I'll happily differ with you on this point. Of course one must compose one's shot. Typically, I frame my shot so the picture I want fills my entire, un-zoomed screen. Then, I apply some simple geometry to determine the position of the lens that will result in my shot occupying 2/3 or less of my screen. In post, I crop the photo as needed to achieve the frame I originally composed. The loss in image quality is negligible. I do use a pretty nice macro lens though.
Well, everyone has his/her own way of working. I personally try to compose in such a way that I don't need to crop later on - then again, I generally don't like to spend much time in the digital darkroom anyway. Btw, especially if you have a nice macro lens, diffraction shouldn't be much of an issue.
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How is a defracted, blurry image ever a better trade off than a pristine sharp picture full of detail? Why do macro photogs spend countless hours focus stacking, if a shot at F32 is a better alternative?
Because at large magnification, even f/32 or f/64 simply doesn't offer enough DoF, so they can only resort to focus stacking. Try shooting a tiny bug at 3:1 magnification and get its entire body in focus - you'll find that even the tiniest aperture that you can set on any macro lens will still only get its head in focus. The need to do focus stacking has very little (if anything) to do with diffraction. The process of focus stacking itself will introduce more artifacts than the slight unsharpness of diffraction caused by a typical macro lens.
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To get a macro picture at f32 you must increase your iso or decrease your shutter speed, dramatically increasing chromatic aberrations.
Chromatic aberration has nothing to do with shutter speed or ISO. Also, every macro photographer knows that flash or a tripod (with motionless subjects) are the only ways to get a tack sharp picture. Your statement makes me believe that you are confusing diffraction with motion blur.
If you're shooting at tiny apertures and you see unsharpness in an image resized for web use or smaller prints (say, 8x10), then odds are you're looking at motion blur, misfocus or simply a still too shallow DoF instead of diffraction - assuming you are using a DSLR. In a compact camera, diffraction can be more of a real-life problem due to the smaller sensors, short focal lengths and the associated tiny aperture dimensions.
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Gravija
Make way for the cavalcade
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 9,063
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: koraks]
#18409298 - 06/12/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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So high Iso doesn't introduce green and red aberrations to an image as a result of noise? Small apertures don't result in softer focus? Am I reading those statements right?
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suchen
Once and Future Noob
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 8,841
Loc: Shangri-la
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18409463 - 06/12/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps we are talking about chroma noise instead of chromatic aberration?
-------------------- Rod Tulloss said: The bulb is the bulb. The volva is the volva. They have a very long term realtionship, but they’re “just friends.”
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The Thinker
Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 4,000
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: suchen]
#18410034 - 06/12/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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how do color balance and contrast look to you guys?
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: Gravija]
#18411782 - 06/13/13 12:33 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gravija said: So high Iso doesn't introduce green and red aberrations to an image as a result of noise?
That's right. Yellow/red and cyan/blue fringing are optical artifacts that are the result of the fact that diffraction in a lens is dependent on the wavelength of the light.
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Small apertures don't result in softer focus?
A bit, depending on the physical size of the aperture. The longer the lens, the less diffraction becomes an issue. A typical macro lens is 100mm ~ 200mm and diffraction tends to be only minor at those focal lengths, even at e.g. f/32. On wide angle lenses, the problem is much more pronounced, since a shorter lens will naturally also have a physically smaller aperture.
Really, think about composition, preventing motion blur, good lighting, proper focus, depth of field etc. etc. etc. and then at the end of the line if there's really *nothing* left you could optimize, only then start worrying about diffraction. Unless you are using a digital compact camera (like I said before), they generally don't offer decent image quality beyond f/8, but that is (again) linked to their tiny sensors and ridiculously short focal lengths.
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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: The Thinker]
#18412076 - 06/13/13 02:55 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Thinker said: how do color balance and contrast look to you guys?
I'm not sure I'm qualified to judge balance and contrast, but that's a very professional and crisp photograph!
It is complemented by the background selected, as well as the ruler and species label. Well done!
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The Thinker
Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 4,000
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so I'll assume colors or contrast aren't wildly off at least? can I get more input from people on anything they don't like about that pic? I'm not a puss so please try to bash it. serious scrutiny will help me get better, compliments won't. but thank you for the comments lightning
I know about the shadows but not worried about that atm
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Gravija
Make way for the cavalcade
Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 9,063
Loc: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: Mushroom Photography Tips [Re: The Thinker]
#18415810 - 06/13/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would probably have a lot more input if I'd ever seen this species before in person. The picture is well lit. It seems homogeneously detailed, which is great for this type of picture. There seem to be three dominant shades of yellow, did you intend to highlight this variability? My only real complaint is that the binomial name isn't italicized
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