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Asurian
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myc questions
#18394576 - 06/09/13 09:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm a noob when it comes to mycelium so if you could answer with simple answers that would be great! I lost my last post so I'm making all my questionable questions In one thread to reduce space, if this is the wrong thread please direct me to the correct one!
First question, once a jar is fully grown with myc, is it possible to spread the myc from that one jar into 4 other jars?(in a sterile space, these other jars of verm have been thru the pc) and let them fully collinize also? ---round about way of making one jars worth of spores into 4- doable?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18394599 - 06/09/13 09:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asurian said: I'm a noob when it comes to mycelium so if you could answer with simple answers that would be great! I lost my last post so I'm making all my questionable questions In one thread to reduce space, if this is the wrong thread please direct me to the correct one!
First question, once a jar is fully grown with myc, is it possible to spread the myc from that one jar into 4 other jars?(in a sterile space, these other jars of verm have been thru the pc) and let them fully collinize also? ---round about way of making one jars worth of spores into 4- doable?
You can do this with grain, is called a grain to grain transfer, or G2G for short. Unfortunately this will rarely work for cakes. It will be difficult to effectively transfer the colonized brf into another brf mix while maintaining sterility.
Edit; You could transfer a cake like that to a pf sub in a bag, but I still see it as a major vector for contams.
Edited by Pastywhyte (06/09/13 10:34 PM)
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Trippy_Penguin



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I found the jump from BRF to rye grains to be very simple and I've found rye grains to be easier and less time consuming.
Do some reading on G2G and if you feel comfortable, make the jump to grains and bulk.
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Asurian
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My thoughts were towards casting and the way it worked. Also towards how the cakes can fight off contams once birthed due to the myc links being stong enough. I would have done this in a 100% sterile place like a glovebox. I guess I just don't see why this couldn't be done since the new jar would be sterile and have nuets for growth.
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Trippy_Penguin



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18394680 - 06/09/13 09:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm assuming you're following PF tek in which case the dry verm layer would get in your way. Grain jars can be broken up so you can simply tip them and dump out grains. BRF jars come out whole (cakes) and are fairly difficult to break them up. It's not that it couldn't be done, but it would be very difficult to actually break off a piece of the cake and successfully transfer it to another jar. Also, the fully colonized cake is quite resistent to any contaminants, but the jar you're introducing it to is not.
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Asurian
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Ok, not trying to ride a dead horse but contams arnt really my issue, and there would be no dry verm layer in the fresh jars I would use tyvek. The part about the cake being to hard is a good point..would testing this be better if the jar wasn't fully colonized? Like after 50%
Ok next question, when casing you put verm on the bottom and top of the broken down myc (more on the bottom and the top would be the peatmoss mix to) does this verm/vermpeatmoss need to be pc'ed?
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CMOS
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I've done PF cakes to other jars of PF. In a glovebox I dumped out the layer of verm from the spawn jar, then took a sterile spoon (wrapped in foil and PCed) and took a chunk of the colonized spawn to another pf jar. ( the transfer jar did not have a verm layer on top tho )
Worked fine, but doing grain to grain is much easier, and colonizes alot faster too.
Actually now that I think back, I don't think I ever did my PF jars with a verm contam barrier on top, I just opened them up to inoculate with a multispore or I covered my needle hole with some micropore tape after injecting.
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CMOS
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18394764 - 06/09/13 10:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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No wait till its 100%
Are you trying to break up some rice/verm cakes and make a tray out of them with a casing layer?
Don't put any verm on the bottom of your tray. If your trying to case your tray with verm/peatmoss, don't PC it, pasteurize it at around 150F for an hour.
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: CMOS]
#18394780 - 06/09/13 10:22 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Did they grow properly? I was thinking, that if done properly then you could break up the myc (just like a casing) all withen a glovebox or sterile ziplock. Then thransfer 1/4 that cake to other sterile nuetrient filled jars and allow for re-colinizing
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18394788 - 06/09/13 10:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then taking the finished 4 cakes and casing them (1/2 pint)
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CMOS
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18394901 - 06/09/13 10:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've heard of people breaking them up in a ziplock before, and spawning that to another jar. I don't know how your get a ziplock sterile tho, unless they come out of the bag clean?
When you say casing, I think you actually mean just a nutritious substrate. A casing is a thin non-nutritious layer that helps provide a nice microclimate for pinning and fruiting. Its generally not needed with cubes unless your fruiting conditions aren't ideal.
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: CMOS]
#18395092 - 06/09/13 11:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Spray it down with bleach water then close it, and move around Wats in the bag till its gone.
And no I meant casing like, spreading out the mycelium ontop of vermite with a pestmoss/vermite top... unless I'm wrong and that isn't it.
Iv also seen a video with someone putting 4 full cakes into a bin ontop of verm, surrounding the cakes with some verm. And toping them with the peatmoss mix, would this work? Casing without breaking apart the cakes
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18395129 - 06/09/13 11:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah but then you may as well just leave them in the jars
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18397368 - 06/10/13 01:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Instead of what?
Also a question on flushing. What is it exactly? Iv gathered that its were you pick the shrooms to allow more to grow?
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One Love
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18397415 - 06/10/13 01:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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A flush is the yield of fruits you get. After picking a bunch of mature fruits, leaving none left that would be considered the first flush. If more grow after, those fruits would be the second flush, and so forth.
I would not recommend using any substrate, or vermiculite that has not been sterilized in some way. The reason they are sterilized is because of any contaminant endospores that exist in the vermiculite (or whatever you are using) - contams that come from fabrics, air, skin, hair etc are just other possibilities from where contaminants come from - but sterilized jars with substrate in them should ensure that are already present are killed off. And even after that there is always a risk that not all have died (?) or that new contams will be introduced.
BRF cakes will be like one solid mushroom textured cake once fully colonized. As sterile and careful as you may be, to truly break off a piece it might be best to cut at it with a sterile scalpel or something. But it is a risk. And as you can see, no one really does transfers from brf cakes. You could take the cakes into a completely sterile lab room and juggle them about, toss them at the wall etc - you can do whatever you want. It's the risk. So if you want to take that risk, and the jars get contaminated or do not colonize, don't be surprised. Even if they were a success, I would still credit it to luck. If you would like to transfer jar to jar, then go out and buy some grains! It's easier, less time consuming, and more convenient than pf tek in my opinion.
If you try to break off a piece of a colonized cake, you risk not only the new jar being contaminated but the first one as well. Then you would have to throw them both out. For experimental purposes, which I like to do myself sometimes, I maybe make an extra jar or two for that sole intention, to play with. Good luck!!
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: One Love]
#18397437 - 06/10/13 01:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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there are no endo spores in verm
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18397445 - 06/10/13 01:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for the well written post! I appreciate all info given
Soo you don't think that the fully colonized brf cakes would be strong enough to fight of any contams in unsterilized verm? Iv just been under the impression that when casing with the verm it doesn't need to be pc'ed
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18397454 - 06/10/13 01:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: there are no endo spores in verm
I was thinking that, don't those mainly exist in rye? That's why you soak them, to germinate the endospores to be killed by the pc, right? Correct me if I'm wrong
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18397465 - 06/10/13 01:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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nope your right, but we soak to hydrate the endospores germinating is a bonus
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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One Love
Surrealist



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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18397480 - 06/10/13 01:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: there are no endo spores in verm
Apologies, the terminology. I thank you for speaking up so I can not embarrass myself in the future. However, I am a bit more paranoid than most. I have a colorful imagination and I often think people roll about in the verm, spit in it, who knows what between the timeline of it getting shipped to the store until it is in my hands. The same for any other store bought, packaged product...You never know right? Maybe someone sneezed....ew. Either way - why risk using something that you didn't sterilize yourself?
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One Love
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Re: myc questions [Re: One Love]
#18397493 - 06/10/13 02:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I should add the only thing I don't PC is coco coir, when I make it I use hot or boiling water. I had long ago read that cococoir is very resistant to contams - would that be true? In any case, cococoir can be found very easily, at the petstore, or you can order things online as I do. The possibilities are endless!
Edited by One Love (06/10/13 02:47 PM)
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: One Love]
#18397744 - 06/10/13 02:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was going to use a premade mixture from my local florist of peatmoss and verm. I'm just really not wanting to have to pc, all that verm. And if I would have to then I don't understand why I wouldnt just do a transfer of the brf before its fully colonized in a sterile environment. Maybe even just getting a bigger jar and putting the full cake in that with more verm to spread futher. My intention.s are to get as much myc with 5cc as possible
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18397764 - 06/10/13 03:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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so spawn your cakes to a bulk sub, no casing needed
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18397799 - 06/10/13 03:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asurian said: My intention.s are to get as much myc with 5cc as possible
Then I recommend trying agar and grain. 0.5 cc will be enough to last forever
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NecroMyce
Mostly Ghostly



Registered: 05/12/13
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14995972/fpart/1/vc/1
You can always try this before you go to a real bulk grow. gives you a little idea of what you'll be doing and is quite simple
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Asurian
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Is there a way to get agar without going online?
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CMOS
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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18398929 - 06/10/13 07:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah just get some light malt extract from a brew supply store and some agar agar from a asian store
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One Love
Surrealist



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18399001 - 06/10/13 07:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asurian said: I was going to use a premade mixture from my local florist of peatmoss and verm. I'm just really not wanting to have to pc, all that verm. And if I would have to then I don't understand why I wouldnt just do a transfer of the brf before its fully colonized in a sterile environment. Maybe even just getting a bigger jar and putting the full cake in that with more verm to spread futher. My intention.s are to get as much myc with 5cc as possible
If you really are going to risk transfer with BRF then I think it would be best to let the jar colonize 100% and try cutting out a piece. Although you would have to wait for the new jars to colonize again, it should be faster than doing it from syringe. And also, you would have to sterilize the new jar before putting it in. In that case, put all your materials in a glovebox/your sterile environment, use something sharp and sterile. Should also loosen the jar lids beforehand so you can then open and close quickly as you take out/drop in. If you were more patient, you could use a very small bit of of the spores and just inoculate the new jars, rather than inoculating four points. It would take longer to colonize, however.
Where are you now in the process? Have you got jars colonizing or have you not started yet? If so, what materials do you have to work with?
To get a lot of yield with what you have I would have to agree with cronicr and just break up your cakes into a bulk sub, using a monotub. It's easy.
I've never done trays as CaspuuuR suggested, but that's also another alternative.
Agar is difficult, especially if you are inexperienced. Best to try other methods first, until you can at the very least be sure your sterile technique is working for you.
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: One Love]
#18406512 - 06/12/13 01:16 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks you for the long helpfull reply! It appears mono tub is the best way. I was under the impression a mono tub was a casing?
And what you explained would be the exact process of how I would do the brf 2 brf transfer although I would try to put more than just a little myc to the new also sterile jar to increase colonization rate. Sorry if I don't make since, I am a newbie remember.
Also, if I were to be cultivating illegal shrooms (wich I'm not) I would be exactly 5.5 days after innoc
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18406533 - 06/12/13 01:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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we don't use the term casing like that, we call them bulk subs or trays but not casings. casing layers are non nutritious and used to give 99-100%humidity on the surface of your sub to aid in hyphal not formation this usually consists of a mix of peat moss/verm and some sorta buffer like lime. that being said ther not needed for bulk subs
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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One Love
Surrealist



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Re: myc questions [Re: Asurian]
#18406582 - 06/12/13 01:43 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm glad to be of help.
A casing is a layer that is placed over the substrate that the mycelium will colonize. It does not have any nutrients ("food") for the mycelium in it.
With cubensis many people will tell you that you don't need a casing layer. I don't use casing, but you can make a monotub with or without it.
If you have already inoculated and are waiting for things to colonize this is the best time to read up and learn and plan what you want to do - your mindset will be quite receptive to information about how you want to approach the fruiting process, and it helps pass the time. You might feel a desire to anxiously decide what method you should use but rather than make a concrete decision read about all your options - but for you I would go with brf to bulk coir monotub! You can make the monotub any size to accommodate how much spawn (spawn being the colonized cakes) you will be using, the bigger the tub in relation to the amount of spawn the longer you will have to wait during the colonization process. You don't want to go too big or it will take too long and contaminants will also have time to flourish.
I had leftovers so I needed to make a small monotub for roughly 2 and a half pints of spawn. I picked up 6 quart sterilite bin for 3$ at the dollar store. a pack of ez-felt for 5 dollars for the holes, though most people use polyfill, I like the felt because you can use them for filters on your jars. (They sell sheets for like 50 cents, but I prefer to get the packs because they are sealed up.) I got a 3 pack of coco coir,(Around 6$?) but for this size I only used a 3rd of a brick. And I am pretty sure they sell single bricks too, for even less. Then you would also need a roll of micropore/medical tape, to tape up the holes during the colonization period (in the monotub) but this is also the tape used on jar filters, so it's good to have. It is not mandatory but you should also have a black garbage bag to cover the bottom of the tub. Unless you don't mind pins growing on the bottom.
That's a quick rundown of a monotub(the supplies), should you go that route. Though you might need a bigger or smaller tub depending on your spawn.
Edited by One Love (06/12/13 01:44 AM)
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One Love
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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18406592 - 06/12/13 01:46 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: we don't use the term casing like that, we call them bulk subs or trays but not casings. casing layers are non nutritious and used to give 99-100%humidity on the surface of your sub to aid in hyphal not formation this usually consists of a mix of peat moss/verm and some sorta buffer like lime. that being said ther not needed for bulk subs
I don't know much about casing layers. I was curious if you were to case a bulk sub (monotub) and it got contaminated would it show on the surface of the casing layer or would it be hidden underneath?
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: One Love]
#18406601 - 06/12/13 01:48 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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there usually right on the surface but if you use the buffer and pasturize properly you should be more then fine! cubes may not need a casing layer but thats not to say they don't benefit from one
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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One Love
Surrealist



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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18406617 - 06/12/13 01:54 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've always had this problem with brf cakes, which is one of the reasons why I switched to rye.
Adding the verm "casing" in a brf jar... The first time I made them it looked fine but I suppose I made the verm layer too deep, and it the jars took forever to colonize. So the second time, I decided to make that layer a little less, but after PCing, the cake shrunk so much that I suppose some of the spores never reached the BRF underneath! Why would they shrink? Should I have packed it or so? Though I'll probably never do BRF again, it'd be good to know ;p
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cronicr



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Re: myc questions [Re: One Love]
#18406623 - 06/12/13 01:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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you just gently tap it down when your loading, alot of the time the wrong jars are the culprit
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Asurian
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Re: myc questions [Re: cronicr]
#18416651 - 06/13/13 11:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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It seems mono tubs are the way to go. The is pf for a little fge and moisture control right?
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