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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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You can't judge a religion by its members.
    #1839264 - 08/22/03 01:38 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

How many times have people said that? Why should religion and its effect be any different than any other institution or endeavor?

Want a degree in technology? Go to M.I.T.
Want a degree in business? Go to Harvard.
Want a degree in medicine? Go to Stanford.
Want a degree in music? Go to Julliard(sp?).

Why? Because the teachers and the curriculum have been proven. Your average graduate from these institutions stands out from the crowd in income and prestige.

Yet, a church is not to be judged by it's members nor their morality. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.




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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Swami]
    #1839273 - 08/22/03 01:43 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It is better to not judge anything at all.


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Zahid]
    #1839286 - 08/22/03 01:49 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I do it all the time, every time a Christain tells me that I'm going to hell for not praising god with every fiber of my being.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Zahid]
    #1839288 - 08/22/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I believe there are religons that stand out among the rest.


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Offlinewavesoflight
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Swami]
    #1839290 - 08/22/03 01:52 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I understand the point you are trying to make, and I agree with you on some levels. Where I differ from you, is that I believe that everyone has their own take on religion, their own and others as well, and even though two people may claim to be Catholic, it doesn't mean they hold the same views/philosophy. Fundamentally, only you can decide/judge a religion by experiencing/learning about it. There are people that would have used the same analysis you just made to say that black people are stupid or such. (not implying anything racist at all on my behalf) Ex) ignorant person that only "knows" what they see on the television and thus draws there conclusions about black people based on what they see in the movies, on a tv sitcom,or cops and thus concludes they are stupid and cause lots of trouble. I've actually heard people talking like this so I know this happens. Do you see what I'm getting at? peace


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839293 - 08/22/03 01:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

" and even though two people may claim to be Catholic, it doesn't mean they hold the same views/philosophy."

yes it is about perspective. I think one can tell a lot about a religion by it's member's actions, rather than the members themselves. like when the mormons come door to door at 8-9am asking for you to suscribe to their paper. Clearly one can infer a lot from this single action, and thus it is a reflection on the religion.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinewavesoflight
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1839297 - 08/22/03 02:01 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with you; "I think one can tell a lot about a religion by its members' actions", that's why i said i agree with him on certain levels! Fundamentally however, you need to experience it/immerse yourself in it to get a "true" feel for what it is about, because it comes down to your interpretation of that. peace


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839309 - 08/22/03 02:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, nice catch on my punctuation error :smile: 


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. *DELETED* [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839310 - 08/22/03 02:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by kaiowas


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinewavesoflight
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1839322 - 08/22/03 02:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

oh man, honestly i'm terrible myself with that and thats how i read it! looked clean to me.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839323 - 08/22/03 02:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Funny you mention the door to door preaching thing.

I would actually consider the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to be good examples for regilous devotion.

These are people who live in accordance with their interpretation of God's will.

If your music or medicine is in the form of the Mormons' religious dogma then yes they stand out among the rest with regards to Christian sects.


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1839338 - 08/22/03 02:16 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, nice double post :wink:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: MindTrap]
    #1839357 - 08/22/03 02:23 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would actually consider the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to be good examples for regilous devotion.

I wish I better knew my history, but back in the 1800s when the Mormons were at war with the US government over polygamy and other political issues; there was a group of some unsuspecting 140 pioneers crossing Utah on their way to California. The Mormon "avenging angels" slaughtered every last man, woman and child strictly as a terrorist act.

Can you feel the love?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1839360 - 08/22/03 02:24 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yeah yeah, my comp froze, since it likes to do that

door to door is one thing, selling me a paper is something else.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineMindTrap
Disembodiedvoice
Registered: 08/02/02
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Swami]
    #1839386 - 08/22/03 02:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I would actually consider the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to be good examples for regilous devotion.

I wish I better knew my history, but back in the 1800s when the Mormons were at war with the US government over polygamy and other political issues; there was a group of some unsuspecting 140 pioneers crossing Utah on their way to California. The Mormon "avenging angels" slaughtered every last man, woman and child strictly as a terrorist act.

Can you feel the love?




So what? Obviously this fell within their interpretation of God's will. Your judging them based on your interpreation of God's will.

Besides, religions evolve just like centers of education and I was obviously referring to the here and now.

If you want to be a military officer you go to West Point.
If you want be a terrorist you go to an Al-Queda training camp.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: MindTrap]
    #1839400 - 08/22/03 02:42 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Besides, religions evolve just like centers of education and I was obviously referring to the here and now.

Every single organization blames it's sins on the previous administration. When the USA took China to task for the Tiennamen (sp?) Square massacre in the late 80s, China said, well what about the Kent State shootings?

The Vatican turned away Jewish refugees in the 1940s and sent them back to near-certain death at the hands of the Nazis. And this was AFTER they had "evolved" for almost 2000 years. The Catholic Church of today apologized to Jews for displaying a complete lack of Christian love during WWII. Of course, new "sins" are always appearing, which will be wiped clean by the next group in power and so on...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Swami]
    #1839404 - 08/22/03 02:45 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Well then I guess it really just depends on who has control of the organization at the time.

I mean Havard business school could easily lose credibility if it were incompetantly managed.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: MindTrap]
    #1839413 - 08/22/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think a more common thought is that you can't judge a religions founding philosophy / teacher by what some weirdo cultish people decided to do with said philosophy...


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: Malachi]
    #1839417 - 08/22/03 02:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Exactlly.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: You can't judge a religion by its members. [Re: MindTrap]
    #1839424 - 08/22/03 02:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I mean Havard business school could easily lose credibility if it were incompetantly managed.

Of course it could, which is why every intelligent high school student will do research before making a choice. There is very little to research when thinking about joining a religion. First off, it is mostly social and cultural, as 90+% of the world's population adopts the religion of their parents.

Can I research the "truth" of the teachings? Not really. I have tested prayer to the best of my ability and found no communication nor guidance. Can I test the "If-I-Love Jesus-I-will-go-to-heaven" hypothesis? Not until I am dead.

So I look at the happiness and love quotient of it's members. As I cannot tell a religious person from an atheist from ordinary individual interaction, nor can I see and feel the love when looking at large groups such as countries; I deem there to be no significant difference and nothing worth pursuing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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