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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Mathematical Explanation...
    #1838650 - 08/21/03 09:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

In terms of mathematics, how far have we come?





We add and subtract...  multiply and divide...  create scenarios of probabilities...  comb trough permutations...
Algebra...  Geometry...  Possible subatomic interactions...

All of these physical possibilities...

And Calculus puts it all  into motion.  Our fourth dimension... Time related events. 


Is there any form of math that goes beyond rates of change?

What about division by zero...  Does that have any significance yet?  So far, a calculator will not give a good answer.

Are there any math gurus out there who might, perhaps, shed some light concerning the kinds of current  limits math has reached?


:crazy:

   


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1838767 - 08/21/03 10:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm inclined to say that artificial intelligence is the height of mathematical expression. Certainly not the most complicated or complex, but it does reveal some limits.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Posts: 5,501
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: pattern]
    #1839064 - 08/21/03 11:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i took 4th level calculus (differential equations, D.E.)  and linear algebra last year.  differential equations dealt with rate of change with respect to many variables.  Linear algebra on the other hand dealt with techniques on simplifiying and sometimes even solving systems of equations (ie.  4 equations are related and you find out how). I'm no guru, but that shit was mind expanding.  Especially when representing four variables in the 3d plane (without any of the variables being held constant). basically an equation in four dimensions (four variables) is represented as a 3d object.  We then apply either cartesian (sp?) or spherical coordinates and look at the rate of change over the surface area of the equation represented. dunno if that made any sense or not, though I'm trying :smile:

now onto dividing by zero. you can't divide by zero, because even though 0 exists, if you divide by it you will miss other solutions. This is a neat concept. In a D.E equation dy/dx=a*y,  y=0 is a solution (dy/dx is the infinitesimal rate of change of y with repect to x ie the differential; y is a variable and a is a constant). why is y=0 a solution?  well looking at both sides of the equation 0*a=0.  if y is zero then dy/dx is zero.  so 0=0.  so say you want to find the constant "a" (finding constants is very impotant in physics).  in order to do this you need to divide by y.  now y is a variable (could be any number), but you already know y=0 is a solution, therefore you have to account for it, or else you can't find "a."  Therfore when you divide by y, a sidenote must be written (for all other y not equal to 0 in this case)  where is this going? in caluclus you would find an equation for the general solution (the non-zero solution). in this example the general equation (whic is the solution to the DE) is y=C*e^(a*x). you would then graph this solution alongside with the zero solution.  what happens is that the two solution equations NEVER cross, and this is why you have to account for zero. so how do you know which one is actual solutions (since we have two or three for one DE)?  easy, it depends on your starting point.  if you start at 0, then you will use the resulting solution of the D.E equation that used y=0.  if not, then you use the other one.  this is why we need to look at everything, and the limit of dividing by 0 is very useful. hope that gave a couple of good points in my rambling :smile:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: kaiowas]
    #1839136 - 08/22/03 12:25 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I......HATE.........MATH...
It gives me Aneurisms
Fuck Math
MAth Sucks
I HATE MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1839326 - 08/22/03 02:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

A good place to look for cutting-edge mathematics is in String theory. One of the biggest hurdles yet to be overcome in string theory is mathematics which we don't understand yet.

Calabi-yau shapes seem the most interesting to me at the moment  :smirk:

Look, here's a 2-D representation of one:
 


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: trendal]
    #1839332 - 08/22/03 02:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

or Chaos Theory


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MindTrap]
    #1839344 - 08/22/03 02:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Chaos theory lead me to an entirely different explanation of life.

Life, just as any large chaotic system, might obey the laws of chaos theory and thus order springs from the disorder.

:wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinewavesoflight
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: trendal]
    #1839346 - 08/22/03 02:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

WOW, that shape is nuts! I wish I were more into math. I only understand it on such a superficial level. My cousin is going back to school to get his degree and then Ph.D in it and he definitely speaks on a different level than me because he's studied it pretty intensively now for a few years.


Edited by wavesoflight (08/22/03 02:20 AM)


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839349 - 08/22/03 02:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The God equation.

We all know the answer is 42. It's figuring out what that damn equation is that's so difficult.


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839359 - 08/22/03 02:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

math frys my brain too, though I wish I could do more with it.

try n wrap your head around this one...........



infinity minus one......



WTF!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839361 - 08/22/03 02:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Don't think that you have to go to school to learn a thing...

:wink: :wtf:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1839368 - 08/22/03 02:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

inifinity minus one is just that.  most of the time there can be a simplified solution when infinity is the variable (as it appears lots of times in physics).  lots of times looking at one less than infinity shows can present a lot of information on how the curve (equation on a graph) moves.  hehe I love math :smile: (such a nerd :frown:)


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlinewavesoflight
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Registered: 01/29/03
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: kaiowas]
    #1839389 - 08/22/03 02:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That talk about infinity just made me laugh, I could feel my brain trying to grasp that. Couldn't.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
    #1839464 - 08/22/03 03:16 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I was briefly friends with this tiny vegan girl who was a math major... she held book club meetings at her apartment.  first the republic, then a segway into math, flatland (really fun read) euclids elements.  euclidian geometry = not my bag.  I haven't even taken college algebra yet.. dread....

flatland was really interesting, it's about a 2-d world.  it's by a guy named  Edwin A. Abbott, and it was written a looong time ago so you can get those super cheap dover editions.  flatland it malachi's pick of the week, my full endorsement. pick it up at a library or bookstore near you. :smile:



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1839472 - 08/22/03 03:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

This is the extent of my mathmatical knowledge:

Teacher - What is pi?
Craven - mmmm...pie... *drools*

too much  :spliff:  I guess 


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1839672 - 08/22/03 06:43 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)


This is the answer :> to your question


--------------------
Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Merkin]
    #1839849 - 08/22/03 10:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

So, where does "the answer is 42" come from? How did we find this answer without ever knowing the question?


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1839884 - 08/22/03 10:22 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I have no clue what mathematicians are up to nowadays, and I doubt that they understand what most of it will be useful for. It can take a long time from the publication of some mathematical result to the first time it is ever used to explain something in some new scientific theory.

Of pre-20th century mathematics, I know that all of the following branches have been very useful in science and engineering:

Algebra.
Algebraic geometry.
Differential calculus.
Variational calculus.
Fourier transforms.
Vector algebra.
Probability theory.
Boolean algebra.
Group theory.
Number theory.

And I probably forgot something important in that list...

From the 20th century we also have Chaos Theory and Differential Geometry, although both have their roots in the 19th century.

Kurt G?del's Incompleteness Theorem is also a product of the 20th century, and in my opinion one of most important discoveries ever made. It has no practical usefulness in other sciences, but it affected the foundations of mathematics in a profound way, and thereby it also affected epistemology.

Group Theory and Number Theory were long seen as "pure" mathematics, meaning that it has no practical use. But group theory together with differential geometry is now at the core of particle physics, and number theory is the foundation of modern public-key cryptography.

As far as limits go, mathematicians have always tried to transcend limits by extending the range of the objects of discussion. The invention of zero is a famous example, and even "1" was once considered slightly controversial by some (you see why if you think of "number" as a thing that denotes a multiple of some single thing).

Negative numbers, rational numbers, real numbers, complex numbers, quaternions, octonions, vectors, tensors, and groups are all examples of such extensions. Mathematicians have become really good at this.

Division by zero is a different sort of limit, because of the way division is defined. Division is defined as the inverse of multiplication: A/B is defined as the solution X to the equation X*B = A. This has a unique solution when B is any number but zero, it has an infinite number of solutions when both A and B are zero, and it has no solutions at all when A is non-zero and B is zero. Extending the numbers to include solutions for the last case won't be of any help for the multi-solution case.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: neutralizer]
    #1840079 - 08/22/03 11:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

A race of higher-dimensional beings once built a massive computer to answer the question of "life, the universe, and everything".

It spent millions of years searching for the answer.

In the end, it decided, the answer was "42".

The problem is, the higher-dimensional beings don't know what the question is.

But the answer is 42.

:smile:

Or you could read some Douglas Adams work  :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1840101 - 08/22/03 11:46 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Infinity -1 = infinity?

How about this one...

You go to a hotel with infinite rooms and ask for a room but the receptionist tells you all the rooms are full (infinite amount of guests!) how can you get a room in the hotel??

If any of you have read any Rudy Rucker and know the answer let the guys have a crack at it and dont reveal the answer! I must admit that I couldnt work this one out myself!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineMindTrap
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1840108 - 08/22/03 11:49 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
You go to a hotel with infinite rooms and ask for a room but the receptionist tells you all the rooms are full (infinite amount of guests!) how can you get a room in the hotel??





Brute force?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1840966 - 08/22/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Given a = b:

a^2 = ab

a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab

2a^2 = a^2 + ab

2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab

2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 -ab

2(a^2 -ab) = 1(a^2 - ab)

2 = 1

QED LOL!!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1840985 - 08/22/03 04:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

N-Complete Problems and the Combinatorial Explosion...
Good Stuff...let me know if u have a solution, I'll give
ya 5 bucks fer it :smirk:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: lucid]
    #1841014 - 08/22/03 04:19 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

^^ Look up "The traveling Sales Person Problem" and the entire
class of N-Complete problems...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
    #1841128 - 08/22/03 04:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)



Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 02:15 AM)


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1841252 - 08/22/03 05:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Wonderful contributions from everyone!  :thumbup:


Anyone want to talk some more on the subject...?

The String theory sounds intriguing... I've read that it appears to have a "dead end" .. Seems to lap with Supergravity which may be a system in which the String is housed. 

Any thoughts?  I'd like to look into that a little more if anyone has a reasonable grasp on the subject matter.

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Posts: 5,501
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
    #1841321 - 08/22/03 06:19 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Given a = b:

a^2 = ab

a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab

2a^2 = a^2 + ab

2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab

2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 -ab

2(a^2 -ab) = 1(a^2 - ab)

2 = 1

QED LOL!!





sure 2=1 but since a^2-ab is 0, then 2=1 doesn't matter, because you have to account for 0, and not DIVIDE by it.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisiblePhobos
Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 435
Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: kaiowas]
    #1841499 - 08/22/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Without much thought, I'd have to say there's way no way to get into the hotel. The statement that the rooms are "full", whether the rooms are infinite or not still stands. The hotel is FULL.. would this understanding be correct? Any arguments?


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Phobos]
    #1842792 - 08/23/03 05:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)



Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 02:14 AM)


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InvisiblePhobos
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Xibalba]
    #1842796 - 08/23/03 05:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

They would HAVE to be infinitely polite, considering an infinite amount of people would have to move their belongings into the next room, when you could have just went down the road to the Holiday Inn that was vacant. :wink:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Phobos]
    #1842870 - 08/23/03 09:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Or you could just go to the last door and move in, instead of having everyone else move, you yourself could be infinitely polite.... hehe

Infinity doesn't make sense to us, does it? Nope. If there are infinite rooms and infinite people in those rooms, where does the room for you come from? I have no fucking clue...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1842896 - 08/23/03 09:58 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It's called "Hilbert's Hotel", and the Wikipedia article about this hotel mentions an even crazier story:

No cigars may be brought into the hotel. Yet each of the guests (all rooms had guests at the time) got a cigar while in the hotel. How is this? The guest in Room 1 got a cigar from the guest in Room 2. The guest in Room 2 had previously received two cigars from the guest in Room 3. The guest in Room 3 had previously received three cigars from the guest in Room 4, etc. Each guest kept one cigar and passed the remainder to the guest in the next-lower-numbered room.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1843022 - 08/23/03 11:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I sure hope that the infinite-1  numbered guest brought with them their "heavy-duty infinity bag"  to carry the infinate number of cigars with them.

:lol:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1845020 - 08/24/03 09:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know anything about the math of String Theory except that it combines the math of Quantum Field Theory with the math of curved spacetime. But any quantum theory of gravity would have to connect with those two types of math in some way.

One interesting aspect of mathematical explanations is whether the fundamental objects described are discrete or continuous. For example, a gas or a liquid is always treated as a continuous quantity in equations that describe the macroscopic mechanics of gasses and liquids, but on a microscopic level we know that they are actually a discrete number of atoms or molecules. Then on a subatomic level we find quantum fields, which are continuous quantities. Then on the still smaller Planck level, we will likely see some sort of discrete structure again, although we don't yet know what is the correct theory at that scale.

I used to believe that our most precise models should be discrete because the real information content of any theory must be finite. But then I realized that this presumes that information is quantized, which I'm not so sure about any more.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1845099 - 08/24/03 11:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"One interesting aspect of mathematical explanations is whether the fundamental objects described are discrete or continuous. For example, a gas or a liquid is always treated as a continuous quantity in equations that describe the macroscopic mechanics of gasses and liquids, but on a microscopic level we know that they are actually a discrete number of atoms or molecules. Then on a subatomic level we find quantum fields, which are continuous quantities. Then on the still smaller Planck level, we will likely see some sort of discrete structure again..."
---------------------------


You know how there is duality in the Particle-Wave theorum...

That might mean that there is also a duality in this case as well... "The Discrete-Continuous Theorum"... Where the relativity of each independent part is proportionnal to the scaling factor...




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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1845307 - 08/24/03 01:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

this presumes that information is quantized, which I'm not so sure about any more.





In Information Theory it is treated as quantized and that seems to be intuitively correct.

-Diploid


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
    #1845572 - 08/24/03 04:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, a classical signal transmits discrete bits of information, and we're used to think about information as 1's and 0's. But information theory also has the concept of "mutual information" which is defined as the reduction of the Shannon entropy after some new piece of knowledge has been acquired. This entropy reduction does not have to take integer values, it can be a fractional number of bits. But it may still come in discrete levels if the probabilities of the possible states are quantized... which might be the case if information is quantized. Eh.

:confused:   


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1845638 - 08/24/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)



Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 02:11 AM)


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Xibalba]
    #1845828 - 08/24/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Both are named after David Hilbert. But there is no other connection between Hilbert's Hotel and Hilbert spaces, except if you count the fact that some Hilbert spaces have an infinite number of dimensions.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Xibalba]
    #1847708 - 08/25/03 09:27 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Good work Xibalba!!


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1847753 - 08/25/03 10:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Query?
zero and infinity are indivisible(half an infinity is still an infinity) would not the equation 0=infinity be true? and if infinity is all encompassing then also infinity =1 as there can only be one infinty therefore 0=1 which then becomes the expression of reality from potential.The equation infinity=1 is acurate as all "things" are merely subunits of the greater set called infinity therefore not discrete.This eliminates the paradox of a divided infinity.So would not the only indivisble quantities be equivilant? or opposite? Also if 0=1 then -1=0=1 is also true as infinity also encompasses negativity.This gives rise to -1=1 which is true as -1 is the reflective equivilant of 1.So if infinity=1or -1 and 0 then we gain the quantum refresh rate of the universe,a binary system,in which 1 and-1 are interchangable values arising from 0,which is the potential space from which reality arises.In other words the universe is a endless expression of the progresion of -1=0=1 at an extremevibratory rate.Given this theory the only true integers are 0and 1 all other integers are in fact fractions of the one(infinty)and since infinty cannot be divided they in effect do not exist except as convienience to explain many of the lesser events within the boundaries of reality.
Mathematics are finite and usefull for understanding the finite however they crumble upon the interjection of the infinite.Chaos theory attempts to cloak some of the workings of the infinite in a finite mathematical robe however,many of the flaws of the theory are  due to inappropriate zeros and infinitudes appearing in equations.Once it is realized that 0 and infinty are the equation then work can begin understanding how 0and Infinity are linked in our expression of reality.
WR:rasta:


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
    #1847888 - 08/25/03 11:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The equality sign is normally used to signify that its left and right operands denote the same thing when they are evaluated. You are using it to signify the equivalence of certain properties of the left and operands. This is not standard usage. The standard way to express that zero and infinity both have the property of indivisibility would be to say f(0) & f(infinity), where f(x) symbolizes the statement that x is indivisible. Or you could say f(0) = f(infinity), which says that both 0 and infinity have the same indivisibility property, but it doesn't say if that property is true or false.

I agree with you that the introduction of infinity tends to make things crumble. Infinity is really just a synonym for open-endedness, and it's in the nature of open-endedness that any attempt to capture all its properties will fail.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
    #1848037 - 08/25/03 12:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

> zero and infinity are indivisible(half an infinity is still an infinity) would not the equation 0=infinity be true?

It is a common mistake to think of infinity as a number. Infinity is concept, not a number in the real number system. This is from the definition of what a real number is. You can append the element infinity (or perhaps two elements, infinity and -infinity) to the set of real numbers, but then your set of numbers is no longer the set of real numbers, but something else.

When treated as a number, there are many cases where expressions with infinity are indeterminate. For example:

  • infinity + (-infinity)
  • (-infinity) + infinity
  • infinity - infinity
  • (-infinity) - (-infinity)
  • 0 * infinity
  • infinity * 0
  • 0 * (-infinity)
  • (-infinity) * 0
  • infinity / infinity
  • infinity / (-infinity)
  • (-infinity) / infinity
  • (-infinity) / (-infinity)
  • infinity / 0 = infinity
  • (-infinity) / 0 = -infinity

    Each of these expressions can have a large range of different values, depending on exactly where the "infinity" parts came from.

    As a result, the system you construct by adding infinity to the set of real numbers is no longer closed under addition,subtraction, multiplication, or division.

    When you equate 0=infinity, you are comparing apples and oranges. The rules used for common arithmetic no longer hold true, thus the apparent conflict that you pointed out...


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    Invisiblewhiterasta
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Seuss]
        #1848168 - 08/25/03 01:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

    Isn't 0 by definition all that is not?Does 0 have a mathematical definition or is it also an open ended "infinity" of nothing?We obviously live somewhere in a state between the open infinite and the infinite nothing.This is whence my statement of mathematics being confined to the finite,a tool to describe the state between two infinitudes.In mathematics one is either working with fractions of the infinitude or additions to an infinite nothing.Pragmatic and practical but not perhaps representative of actuality.
    Just some philosophical meanderings,but they still occupy much mental RAM from time to time.
    WR.


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    OfflineRhizoid
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
        #1848305 - 08/25/03 02:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

    The mathematical definition of zero is the number which when added to any number gives the same number: 0 + x = x, for any number x.

    Zero is a special case of the so-called identity element in group theory. In any mathematical group, there is an operator function that maps two group members to another group member. And one of the group members is called the "identity element" because when combined with another group member via the operator function, the result is identical with that other group member.

    In the group of natural numbers with the operator function being arithmetic addition, the identity element is the number zero. And zero is a bona-fide number. Without zero, there is no identity element and consequently no mathematical group. Infinity on the other hand is not a number, unless you change the definition of number just to incorporate infinity. But doing that will only capture one particular aspect of open-endedness. Sooner or later, other aspects will be found that weren't captured by such a definition.


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    OfflineDeiymiyan
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
        #1848451 - 08/25/03 03:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

    Let's take a function like F(x)= 1/x

    When graphed on an x-y plane, the line becomes separated @ x=0 where the limits become +/- infinity depending upon which direction you go...


    I've always wondered... what the +/- aspects of infinity relative to the 2-D plane meant... Would that, in any way, be like overlapping [or coming close to] over to a 3-D plane relative to the 2-D? I mean, any piece of a 3-D plane would be kind of like an infinate point +x relative to a 2-D plane...

    3-D is "out of bounds" to 2-D... Would a theoretical point "+infinity" on a 2-D plane be like its boundary near 3-D; and "-infinity" be like the boundary approaching 1-D?

    Basically what I'm asking is, in relation to which dimension we are discussing, can infinity +/- be that particular dimension's boundaries relative to its neighbours?


    Then, from a vantage point synonymous to 1-D, the concept of all and nothing, relative to it, would seem to kind of make sense.

    What do you guys think?


    [*edit- Or am I just "out to lunch" on this?]



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    Veni Vidi Vici:

    In Nomine Domini..



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    OfflineSeussA
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
        #1848965 - 08/25/03 06:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

    > What do you guys think?

    I think I need to go home and smoke some before what you ask makes sense... :smile:

    If a being lived in a 2d world (picture a dot on a sheet of paper) and a 3d-world object passed through the 2d world, what would the 2d observer see?  In our paper example, if a pencil was pushed through the paper, the 2d observer would see a point that comes out of nowhere, grows into a line or curve (regardless of the direction it is observed from), and then disappears into nothing again.

    Does this tie in to what you are asking?


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    OfflineDeiymiyan
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Seuss]
        #1849228 - 08/25/03 07:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

    "If a being lived in a 2d world (picture a dot on a sheet of paper) and a 3d-world object passed through the 2d world, what would the 2d observer see?"
    ----------------------


    If a being [as a dot] on a 2-D plane existed, wouldn't that make the being of 1-D magnitude?



    Maybe it an illustration would make more sense...


    Picture a clear 3-D cube who's boundaries are clearly visible [ie- the area of the cube].

    Now, within the cube, draw a 2-D plane; on this plane, draw a dot.

    You now have, in front of you a 3-D shape, within it a 2-D plane and on it, a 1-D dot.



    The 2-D plane with respect to the dot is the dot's magnitude [it's relative finite size, as compared to the plane] + a [a, being the remaining size {area} of the plane]...

    The entire magnitude of the dot, relative to itself, would be infinity [where, infinity, as I've learned throughout my studies in High School, is nothing more than a very large number... so, in fact, finite then]... In essence, the dot's boundary.

    The 2-D plane goes beyond the bounds of the dot... but INCLUDES the dot.

    Now relative to the 3-D space, the volume includes the total area of the plane + the remaining volume.


    Taking it from the perspective of the 2-D plane, the 3-D cube is the boundaries of 2-D, which are already infinately larger than the boundaries of the 1-D dot, + v let's say [v=volume of the cube].


    Sizewise now, the cube is all around the plane which is all around the dot.


    You can take a section of the 3-D space and represent it on the plane, but you only get the tip of the iceburg, so to speak. So this section seen on the 2-D plane is a small piece of a larger dimensionnal body.


    You can't see the full representation of the next higher dimension... only a "snippet" of it.

    Realtive to the dot, the cube is very much infinately larger.


    I hope I used the right descriptive words here.


    So going back to the initial post I made... Could +/- infinity represent the outermost boundary of a particular Dimension?




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    Dei Gratia de integro,

    Veni Vidi Vici:

    In Nomine Domini..



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    Offlinefireworks_godS
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
        #5337880 - 02/25/06 02:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Bump.

    :evil:

    And who says math can't represent reality? :lol:



    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
        #5350727 - 02/28/06 09:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    What about division by zero... Does that have any significance yet?

    If you are given 8 apples to divide among 4 people, how many apples does each person get. Answer 2 per person.

    If you are given 8 apples to divide among 2 people, how many apples does each person get. Answer 4 per person.

    If you are given 8 apples to divide among 1 person, how many apples does each person get. Answer: the one guy gets all 8.

    If you are given 8 apples to divide among 0 people, how many apples does each person get. Uh... but there aren't any people.

    This is why you can't divide by 0. It is a meaningless operation. :rolleyes:


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5350751 - 02/28/06 09:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Actually its anything but a meaningless equation. It is actually very useful in high mathematics, with poles and other things.


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5350788 - 02/28/06 09:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Division by zero is not allowed even in fields other than the reals.

    Division by zero is defined in some fields, the extended complex plane (the Riemann Sphere) for example, where it's defined as complex infinity, but it's still not allowed; only defined.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


    Edited by Diploid (02/28/06 09:52 PM)


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5350874 - 02/28/06 10:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I was merely saying its not meaningless it has uses in math, I use it on a weekly basis, some classes on a daily basis.


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5352926 - 03/01/06 11:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    If you cut the last person in two parts, each half will still get 8 full apples. Or does each part get 16 apples ?
    What ?
    If you cut a person in any parts, each part will get 8 apples..where do they come from ? The amout of apples increases if you start cutting humans into parts.

    math as representation of reality ?

    :lol:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5353557 - 03/01/06 03:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I will be honest: Some very complex and deep matters and formulas of math do fit exactly to reality (because they normaly tend to describe it - at least, that is where math came from), while some other, very simple and primary rules of math break every bond, understanding and logic of reality.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5353575 - 03/01/06 03:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Such as


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5353928 - 03/01/06 05:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    If you cut the last person in two parts, each half will still get 8 full apples.

    Nope.

    If you divide 8 apples among 2 half-persons, each half-person gets 4 apples. The whole person still gets 8.

    Simple.

    Math is ALWAYS consistent (if incomplete).


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5353942 - 03/01/06 05:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Speaking of logic, here's a logic brain twister:

    You're sealed in a room with two doors. One door leads to your certain death, the other to freedom.

    In front of the two doors are two robots who know which door will kill you and which will set you free. One robot ALWAYS tells the truth, the other ALWAYS lies.

    * You're allowed to ask one robot one question.

    What question would you ask to determine which door to go through?  :confused:


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


    Edited by Diploid (03/01/06 05:57 PM)


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    InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5353968 - 03/01/06 05:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ask both: "Are you a robot?"
    Then, ask the one who anwsers "Yes": "Does this door lead to certian death?"
    If the robot anwsers "Yes" then I open the other door, if the robot anwsers "No", then I open that door.


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    Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5353973 - 03/01/06 05:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ask each one if they are a robot. The lying one will have to lie about what it is saying it's something else. Then, ask the truth telling one which is the door to freedom.  :tongue:

    I hope that question has an answer and you plan on sharing it later. :smile:

    :peace: :heart:


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
        #5353975 - 03/01/06 05:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ooops, my bad. See edit. Only ONE question allowed.  :tongue:


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5353983 - 03/01/06 05:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    :sad:


    Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/01/06 05:51 PM)


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
        #5354001 - 03/01/06 05:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    That reduces to simply asking which door leads to certain death. It doesn't resolve the ambiguity.

    And jiggy, yes, there is an answer.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5354003 - 03/01/06 05:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I noticed.


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    InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
        #5354008 - 03/01/06 05:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ask one of the robots: "If I asked the other robot, would he tell me this door leads to certian death?"

    If the robot anwsers "No", then open that door.
    If the robot anwsers "Yes", then walk through the other one.


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
        #5354015 - 03/01/06 06:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    DING DING DING!

    Mushman wins the spiked brownies.  :headbang:

    You guys are too smart around here...


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5354029 - 03/01/06 06:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    :heart: Yipee!


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    Invisibleit stars saddam
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
        #5354062 - 03/01/06 06:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Diploid said:
    You're sealed in a room with two doors. One door leads to your certain death, the other to freedom.

    In front of the two doors are two robots who know which door will kill you and which will set you free. One robot ALWAYS tells the truth, the other ALWAYS lies.

    * You're allowed to ask one robot one question.

    What question would you ask to determine which door to go through?  :confused:





    Quote:

    MushmanTheManic said:
    Ask one of the robots: "If I asked the other robot, would he tell me this door leads to certian death?"

    If the robot anwsers "No", then open that door.
    If the robot anwsers "Yes", then walk through the other one.




    Wow, it took me 10 mins to wrap my mind around this.


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    OfflineKaleidoscope
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: it stars saddam]
        #5356124 - 03/02/06 03:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Math is fun to think about in terms of computers and brains...both definable by a discrete mathematical system...One is known, the other is not. Both are similar, yet both are very different. The brain runs on algorithms and has an "OS," just like a computer. It has it's own assembly language (i.e. neurotransmitters) to control data-path and memory. On it's most basic level, the brain is a binary machine, meaning, you should be able to, with the right technology decompile the software of the brain and figure out what makes us tick. I already am certain of one thing, the algorithms of the brain are chaotic systems...


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5356714 - 03/02/06 10:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ?
    To stay with the apples: 8 people, each gets one, 4 people each gets 2, 2 people each gets 4, 1 person gets 8 and half a person gets 16. Has he to share them with his imaginable other half, so he gets invisible apples ? In which way does this describe reality ?
    Does it mean, that if you leave the space of the natural numbers, the laws go crazy with reality ? Does it say "Oh, you bad boy, you have halved a person, that is not right here, so you have to half the apples too, so that every new part gets equal amounts. So you get 16 parts of apples." The whole reference-system changed and went crazy with that step and that describes reality ? Where is the error, at least you can divide 8 apples to 16 persons without problems... ?!


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/02/06 11:17 AM)


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5359342 - 03/02/06 10:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? ... it mean, that if you leave the space of the natural numbers, the laws go crazy with reality ?

    No. It means you have represented the reality problem incorrectly in the equation.

    What you've incorrectly represented is more akin to dividing the 8 Apples among two baskets that can each hold only half-apples but never entire whole apples. Since the baskets will not accept whole apples, you have to cut the 8 into 16 halves, then divide the 16 among the 2 baskets. But that's not the problem presented, and your inadvertent change of the problem is what leads to your odd result.

    To avoid this confusion, drop English and switch to the precision, abstract language used by logicians. Instead of Apples and Half-people, think objects A and H.

    You have 8 of object A (the Apples) and 2 of object H (the Half-people).

    8 of A divided among 2 of H results in 4 of A for each H. <<< Correct Answer

    When you've completed the computation, substitute back the real-world words (Apples and Half-people) for the abstract A and H, and you'll always get the right answer.

    Note that if you now join the two Half-people into one whole person, you'll still have the correct answer in that the now-whole person will end up with all 8 apples.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5360624 - 03/03/06 06:12 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    But if there is only one half-person, why does he get 16 apples (if I follow the mathematical row) ? Why x/y=z, the z gets bigger than the x if y goes below 1 ? Give me one example in nature and reality, so I can comprehend that please.
    That ever was weird to me :lol:

    edit: It somehow shows, if you want to half or third the apples, how many pieces you will get out in total, but where is the link to the human - I wanted to half them ? Where are we leaving/changing the frame of refernce ? Why does half a human only can get half-apple units ??

    TheCow:Perhaps there we can see, that math can represent reality, but reality not nescessarily has to follow math :lol:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 06:29 AM)


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361320 - 03/03/06 01:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ha this is remarkable. You have 8 apples, 8 humans. 8/8 = 1 apples/human.

    If you have 1/2 of a human, than 8 apples / (1/2) of a human, gives you 16 apples/human. Oh but theres more apples you cry! If you are giving a 1/2 of a person 8 apples, then of course a whole human will get 16! I cant believe this discussion has been going on for so long.

    You are for some reason defining a half of a person as a whole person at the end. You are saying look this half of a person is getting 16 apples. NO. It is apples/human. So a whole human, 2 halves of a human will get 16 apples.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361366 - 03/03/06 02:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    It is easy to dismiss math as not having any value when one does not understand what math is (or its magnificent ability to represent reality), which is necessary in order to find the value within it. :wink:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


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    I wouldn't fear
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5361415 - 03/03/06 02:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Perhaps some have to understand reality a bit better to see, where mathematics cracks up with it ?

    If you are giving a 1/2 of a person 8 apples, then of course a whole human will get 16! I cant believe this discussion has been going on for so long.
    Because math says here if a whole man gets 8 apples, half a man gets 16, as you see, the opposite of what you say.

    I only have 8 apples to share ! That is where math conjures up more apples than I have under certain circumstances. Why are my 8 apples enough for any number of people greater or equal than one, but are not enough if I start to part the human ? I don't ask how much fictional apples a whole human will get, I ask, how much apples half a human will get.
    Where and why does math leave reality ?


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361469 - 03/03/06 02:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Man, alright let me get back to 5th grade math here.

    1/2 of a human isnt getting 16 apples. The units are apples/human. This mean the number of apples per 1 human. You are defining one human as a singular entity, not a half a human. Now if you say 8 apples / (1/2) human, than you are saying 16 apples/human. This is ONE human, not 1/2 of a human. Each half of a human gets 8 apples. There is no magical extra apples.

    Ill explain it in even more dumbed down terms. If you cut someone in half. Give that half 8 apples. Which is what you are saying, than that half will have 8 apples. If you keep the same relationship, than if you add that half of a human to the other half, creating ONE human again, than that ONE human will have 16 apples.

    To state it differently. 8 apples / 2 humans. Is 4 apples per human. Right? Every WHOLE human gets 4 apples ok? If you have one human, 8/1 is 8 apples for every ONE human. If you have 1/2 of a human, every WHOLE human gets 16 apples because each half of him gets 8. So there is no creating of extra apples, as every half still gets the maximum amount of apples, YOU are multiplying the answer by 2 because you are saying apples per ONE HUMAN.

    Sorry if that sounds irate, but honestly man, use some reasoning.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361517 - 03/03/06 03:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    That was a nice explanation, thank you very much (really) !
    And now I see, where math leaves reality: It is so overexact, that it implies, that if I give 8 apples to half a human, a whole human must have 16 apples. It doesn't consider, that there are perhaps only 8 apples, or the other half won't get any apples, so it wents into pure fiction and changes MY question about the probelm into its own answer :frown:
    But isn't it somehow a crazy answer: If you share 8 apples to half a human, each human gets 16 ? :smile: Of course I agree that it follows mathematical logic, but it is hard to reason in human terms for that.

    Thank you for clearing that up, that approves that math not nescessarily has to do something with reality or the perception of it :wink: :evil:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361529 - 03/03/06 03:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ha alright. Fine whatever Im not going to argue with a man who has literally 0 grasp on common sense.
    Do you even understand what division is? Do you have any grasp at all on reality in any sense of the word I have to wonder. You have 8 apples total, hey guess what, you need more apples man. You cant feed the world with 8 apples, if you want to feed more than half of a person give the man 16 apples, hey you only have 8? Thats fine, give him 8 apples and half of him will be fed.
    Edit(2nd): Alright whatever, I dont need to try and explain it further.


    Edited by TheCow (03/03/06 03:20 PM)


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    Offlinefireworks_godS
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361546 - 03/03/06 03:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ?
    To stay with the apples: 8 people, each gets one, 4 people each gets 2, 2 people each gets 4, 1 person gets 8 and half a person gets 16. 




    A half of a person does not get 16. You, apparently, do not know how to accurately perform your equation, " 8 / .5 = 16".

    First off, you cannot have a fraction such as " 8 / .5 ", as " .5 " itself IS(!!!!!!!!) a fraction itself! " .5 " is an alternate representation of the fraction " 1 / 2 ". Are you with me so far? You cannot represent " 8 / 1 / 2 " as a fraction, it does not comply with the notation one is using.

    Just as you cannot solve " 1a + 5 = 3b " without cancelling out your unlike terms, you cannot perform " 8 / .5 " without doing so.

    What can one do? Why, one can move the decimal. :shocked:

    One would have to move the decimal in " .5 " one slot to the right, in order to transform it into a whole number. Thus, one must apply the same operation to the other side of the equation, and move the decimal point in " 8 " (which, even though it is not visible, is right behind the number eight :wink:).

    That would give you what fraction?

    " 80 / 5 ".

    Well, that's great, but we aren't finished yet. One has to reduce one's numbers to the point at which they will no longer reduce down further. How many fives are in eighty? We could divide both sides by " 5 " (remember, one simply must perform the same operation on both sides of the equation :thumbup:), now couldn't we?

    What is 80 divided by 5? 16. That gives one the fraction 16/1. Each half of a human gets 16 apples. The ratio " 16 / 1 " is the same ratio that you initially described, " 8 / .5"; we have simply translated it into a different form in order to correctly represent it as a fraction. :wink:

    Obviously, if every half ( as in, .5, 1/2, etc.) of a human receives 8 apples, then if you multiply the ratio by 2, (which would look like this: " 8 x 2 / .5 x 2", of course :tongue:), you would result with " 16 / 1 ".

    To put it into English, A half of a person receives 8 apples. Two halves of a person receives 16 apples.

    You are stating that you are only handing out eight apples to one half-human, and that is all of the apples there are. Obviously, then, one cannot hand 8 more apples to another person. Obviously, relative to the specific example of handing 8 apples to half of a person, another half person never enters the example.

    It is as though you are taking something from math and trying to say it is doing something that it isn't. :wtf:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361557 - 03/03/06 03:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    And now I see, where math leaves reality: It is so overexact, that it implies, that if I give 8 apples to half a human, a whole human must have 16 apples. It doesn't consider, that there are perhaps only 8 apples, or the other half won't get any apples, so it wents into pure fiction and changes MY question about the probelm into its own answer :frown:




    :wtf: Math isn't relevant to how many fucking apples you have. One doesn't attempt to state that mathematics says " 2 + 2 = 4", but I only have two spoons on my table, so math says I add two more spoons and then have four, when I only have two spoons, so I can't add two more.

    Where is the reason in such a statement? I ask you, where? Where? :nut:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

    :heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

    :yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361561 - 03/03/06 03:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    >>Ha alright. Fine whatever Im not going to argue with a man who has literally 0 grasp on common sense.
    Do you even understand what division is? Do you have any grasp at all on reality in any sense of the word I have to wonder. <<
    Thank you, same goes back to you. Sure I will not argue this.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361568 - 03/03/06 03:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Man Im fairly certain I had a greater grasp on the basics of reality in 2nd grade than you do now. Honestly this whole affair has left me somewhat speechless.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361584 - 03/03/06 03:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    fireworks: :lol: hey, math is still righ there as: X / (1/2) = x * reciprocal value (1/2).
    resiprocal value of 1/2 = 2/1 = 2 so x/.5=x*2

    don't blame math for it :lol:
    Perhaps, blame my interpretation, but I tried to follow a logical row there :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361589 - 03/03/06 03:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    cowieman, then look closer into the flow of reality and the flow of mathematical laws. Speechlessness isn't that bad at all :wink:

    >Man Im fairly certain I had a greater grasp on the basics of reality in 2nd grade than you do now<
    I would not be too sure about that.
    But thank you, I found my bad interpretation, as the solution of the equation says >per person<. I think I've overseen this, but it still is a problem with reality, as 16 apples wont come out of nowhere, you see (obviously not) ? :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 03:41 PM)


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361607 - 03/03/06 03:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Yes per person. Dimensional analysis my friend. And there is no problem with the reality of it in any sense. Believe me Ive looked far into math and mathematical laws.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361619 - 03/03/06 03:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    There is a problem with human interpretation with this example. I did math quite far, too, and you seem to be blind to the problem. Not my problem, as I've seen it now that math doesn't cover that reality.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 03:50 PM)


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361647 - 03/03/06 03:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    I think I've overseen this, but it still is a problem with reality, as 16 apples wont come out of nowhere, you see (obviously not) ? :wink:




    The math never stated or implied that 16 apples would suddenly manifest out of nothing into reality, now did it? :smirk:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

    :heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

    :yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5361656 - 03/03/06 03:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    It simply says, if half a human has 8 apples (that is, what is known), a whole human would have 16. Whether that is real, math doesn't concern (the whole person still could have 8 ones, because the other half did not have 8) :wink: The same difference here: If you ask: share 8 apples to 2 people, math says, everyone will get 4 apples, but reality says, that one gets 6 and the other 2 or one gets 5 and the other gets 3 :lol:
    That is, what I did want to say and what leads back to topic.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 04:04 PM)


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361693 - 03/03/06 04:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    You are a fool.
    There is no way you took higher mathematics dont try to imply otherwise.

    And why stop at 1 person? Hey 2 people get 32 apples! Whats the deal with that?


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361697 - 03/03/06 04:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    And you expect a single operation to take place in one step. Divide the apples, then you subtract or add some.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361699 - 03/03/06 04:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    It simply says, if half a human has 8 apples (that is, what is known), a whole human would have 16.




    A whole human would have 16 if said number was employed within the same proportion.

    Quote:

    he same difference here: If you ask: share 8 apples to 2 people, math says, everyone will get 4 apples, but reality says, that one gets 6 and the other 2 or one gets 5 and the other gets 3 :lol:




    8=6+2, or 8=5+3? My fucking god, an example of math representing the reality in your example. :lol:

    Change the problem, change the equation.

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


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    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5361709 - 03/03/06 04:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    TheCow said:
    You are a fool.
    There is no way you took higher mathematics dont try to imply otherwise.

    And why stop at 1 person? Hey 2 people get 32 apples! Whats the deal with that?



    What are you talking about and be careful with your tongue, now. Reread the thread to grasp the topic.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5361727 - 03/03/06 04:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    fire, the problem is that math states, that if something is divided, it will be divided into equal parts. It assumes, that if half a human has 8 apples, a whole human will have 16. It states, that the other half has 8 apples, too, what is certain for math, but not certain in reality. That is, where the divergence comes from. :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361746 - 03/03/06 04:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Give me one example in nature and reality, so I can comprehend that please.

    Alright Blue, I'll try one more time with a different tack.

    If you have two half-liters of milk that are each 10 days old (fresh) and you pour them both into one container, is the resulting full liter of milk suddenly 20 days old and spoiled?

    When you grok why it's not, you will understand where your error is. The above is about LITERS of milk not about DAYS of time. If you are talking about liters and your math is about days, naturally, you will come up with the wrong answer.

    Your error is that you're talking about one thing and calculating about another. Your math has been modeling a DIFFERENT real-world problem than the one we're discussing, so naturally, you keep coming up with the wrong answer.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


    Edited by Diploid (03/03/06 07:40 PM)


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361747 - 03/03/06 04:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    It assumes, that if half a human has 8 apples, a whole human will have 16. It states, that the other half has 8 apples, too, what is certain for math, but not certain in reality. That is, where the divergence comes from. :wink:




    Bullshit. You take a mathematic equation, pertinent only to the equation itself, then you name some other situation, and claim that math does not reflect reality simply because it doesn't represent the situation it was never created to represent. :wtf:

    Five plus five equals ten. For you to go on to say that you don't have two groups of five doesn't negate the truth that five plus five equals ten. Your inability to grasp this is baffling. :confused:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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    --------------------
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    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
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    Loving every breath of you

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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5361792 - 03/03/06 04:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Bullshit, too. If I follow the simple question "what if I share a fixed amount of apples to persons or parts of them, how much apples per person woul I get ?" by the mathematical correct equation x/y=z, then I will get a fictious result of it, if y will get below 1, what is not nescessary true to reality, it also conquers it, as I have a fixed amount of apples. Even with the values above 1 the methematical equation only shows an equal-shared solution, what is not represantive of reality at all. Simply like that, math doesn't represent reality not only not for human interpretation, also in some cases it actually contradicts it.
    Grasp this !


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5361924 - 03/03/06 05:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I'm so very upset that I read all of this.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5362399 - 03/03/06 07:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    sweet cowieman, only because I also looked a bit deeper into mathematics, I am able to percieve these problems, tranformed back to simple formulas contradicting reality :wink: :peace:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5362408 - 03/03/06 07:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    diplo, it was not me changing the frame of reference, math itself was doing this. I wanted to know something about a share of 8 apples and suddenly math proposed 16 ones :smile:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5362810 - 03/03/06 10:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    it was not me

    Yes it was.

    You started out talking about diving 8 apples among *** ONE *** half-person, and after you've concluded that the single half-person gets 8 apples, you suddenly change the story and start talking about *** TWO *** half-persons.

    If you change the thing you're talking about in the calculation after you've finished calculating, then of course you will get the wrong answer.

    You can't calculate your bank balance in Mexican pesos, then expect to have that same number of dollars available to spend.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5363654 - 03/04/06 04:04 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    fireworks_god said:
    It is easy to dismiss math as not having any value when one does not understand what math is (or its magnificent ability to represent reality), which is necessary in order to find the value within it. :wink:






    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

    :heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

    :yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5363699 - 03/04/06 05:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    diplo, fire: If I speak of a fixed number of apples to share, math cares shit about and conjures something out of nothing, that is reality, so use that words on yourself fireworks.
    I am sorry that you can not see that mathematical flux in opposition to reality. So we have to cease discussion here.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5363726 - 03/04/06 05:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    diplo, fire: If I speak of a fixed number of apples to share, math cares shit about and conjures something out of nothing, that is reality, so use that words on yourself fireworks.




    On the contrary, your misuse of math produces the results you state do not reflect reality.

    The fact remains that math is a language, no different than English or German, and you use math to represent reality. If you have a fixed number of apples and distribute them amongst individuals or halves of individuals, one uses math, as a language, to represent the operation you are performing.

    You can't take that equation, multiply the numbers by 1000, and then accuse math of not representing reality because it says there are 8000 more apples than what you actually have.


    If you start with an equation and perform more operations to it, then you have changed the situation it is representing.


    If you cannot see how this is true, then I would advise you do not use math, as it will get you into a lot of trouble in the situations you engage in within reality. When the government claims you owe $8 in taxes, due to the fact that you have $80, and they demand 10% of your money as taxes, then you don't divide the amount of money you have by two and state that their math doesn't represent the reality of the matter. Later, when you are in prison for tax evasion... :lol:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

    :heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

    :yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5363745 - 03/04/06 06:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Hello, is that so hard to see ? I used that example to state, that reality will not alway represent math. Of course one can find other formuas, so that math can represent reality. but reality cares shit about math.

    Again: My fixed starting point are 8 apples. I want to see how I can share these apples, so I use the equation x/y=z.
    It all is good and stays in reality, as long y >= 1.
    It starts to leave reality if y < 1.

    I want to see who is in prsion, man. It will be you who will run around asking "where are the remaining 8 apples, math says they must be here !"

    I don't need a math check, but perhaps someone needs a reality check ?
    But I suppose to leave hostilities and finally stop insulting me personally and find the propper interpretations :frown:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 06:10 AM)


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    Offlinefireworks_godS
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5363764 - 03/04/06 06:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    Hello, is that so hard to see ? I used that example to state, that reality will not alway represent math. Of course one can find other formuas, so that math can represent reality. but reality cares shit about math.




    Math is an aspect of reality, first and foremost, as much as we are.

    Our reality that we experience is a representation of reality that our senses and perceptions have developed. Our representation of reality changes as reality changes. Math's representations of reality change as reality changes.

    Our representations of reality that we experience as reality and our subsequent math's representations of reality are extensions of reality.

    Quote:


    Again: My fixed starting point are 8 apples. I want to see how I can share these apples, so I use the equation x/y=z.
    It all is good and stays in reality, as long y >= 1.
    It starts to leave reality if y < 1.




    Not really, as far as I can see. :lol:

    Quote:


    I want to see who is in prsion, man. It will be you who will run around asking "where are the remaining 8 apples, math says they must be here !"




    I can't make sense of this statement. :wink:

    Quote:


    I don't need a math check, but perhaps someone needs a reality check ?
    But I suppose to leave hostilities and finally stop insulting me personally and find the propper interpretations :frown:




    You have been insulted personally? :confused: Is being questioned personally insulting?

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

    :heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

    :yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
        #5363765 - 03/04/06 07:00 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Again: My fixed starting point are 8 apples. I want to see how I can share these apples, so I use the equation x/y=z.
    It all is good and stays in reality, as long y >= 1.
    It starts to leave reality if y < 1.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not really, as far as I can see.

    Look closer (hint:fixed starting point) :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5364073 - 03/04/06 11:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Again: My fixed starting point

    Again, you are using math incorrectly. Setting y equal to 1/2 DOES NOT represent dividing into half of a person. *** DOES NOT ***

    You have three people here telling in you this. Why do you keep insisting that 2 + 2 = 5, then wonder why that doesn't seem to match reality?

    Blue, c'mon, how can you not see this? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were pulling my leg.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5364095 - 03/04/06 12:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Why do you keep insisting that 2 + 2 = 5
    You know I never did that and I never intended that. I strictly follow the mathematical laws (at least within this thread, brcause it's essential here).
    I farly already took the pepper out of it :wink: I really wonder, why nobody else sees this fallacity, where math crosses the borders of our reality. I see the law and the correctness of the mathematical equation, but really, it flips interpretation, or context of reality, if y wents under 1. Perhaps everybody else doesn't see that as important, or their minds try to fill in the mathematical statement with different interpretations, I don't know. I know that math, in this case, which was only a little example, leaves the real plane of the pregiven and starts to go into fiction and assumptions. Perhaps, that is a mathematical joke, I don't know :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 12:23 PM)


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5364116 - 03/04/06 12:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I really wonder, why nobody else sees this fallacity, where math crosses the borders of our reality.

    Because there is no fallacy. There is only a mistake on your part.

    it flips interpretation, or context of reality, if y wents under 1

    No, it does not. You are in error. Your ego is refusing to accept this.

    If you represent y as less than one, you are representing a different problem than the one we're discussing. You have to set up the equation to correctly represent the real-world or the answer will not represent the real world.

    You've told me in another thread that you know very little about math, yet here you are disputing three people who've studied math and who are telling you that you've made a mistake. What's up with that?


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


    Edited by Diploid (03/04/06 12:25 PM)


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5364148 - 03/04/06 12:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    please recite me correctly. I said, I know little about math if it wents into quantum space or goes near light-speed phenomenas. I studied two semesters of math, too and did my 'A-level' (entrance test for univerity) for example in maths and biology. I love analysis and infinitesimal calculus, painting graphes and speculating about them seeing only the pure formula.
    The equation correctly says how many apples I will get out or need, if I want to share something. Even with y<1 it is correct in a mathematical way, as it say, that one person has 16 apples, if half one person has 8. BUT in real life, this is purely an assumtion. It is not stated that the whole man, or whatever it is what gets whole, really will get the correct amount of the parts. That is the difference, which is stated in the correct laws of math, which won't nescessarily represent reality if you loose regards of reality and orientate too much on the mathematical laws. That is only an example.
    Perhaps, that's more of a mind game, but that is why it fits so good into philosophy :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 12:39 PM)


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5364170 - 03/04/06 12:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I said, I know little about math if it wents into quantum space or goes near light-speed phenomenas.

    Actually, Blue, not to beat up on you, but as I recall, you were having trouble with the concept of a square root. This is 5th grade where I went to school.


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5364182 - 03/04/06 12:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I dont think that I have troubles with square roots, we were discussing light speed and black holes at this time. You must confuse there something, because I also learned calculating with complex numbers, which, as you surely know, calculate with roots out of negatives.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5364214 - 03/04/06 12:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Hey a long math thread cool.  This peaks my interest, as I am studying math all weekend for my midterm on tue.
    Im surprised this hasnt surfaced yet (maybe it has)

    .9999... = 1 

    Thats one that math noobs never accept (neither did I when I was a math noob).  Its a classic for internet forum arguments.


    :cuss:


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    InvisibleDiploidM
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5364224 - 03/04/06 01:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Alright Blue, I give up.

    Meanwhile, I'll think of you every time I fly an airplane, drive over a bridge, or use a computer designed with math which doesn't correctly represent the real world.  :smirk:


    --------------------
    Republican Values:

    1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
    2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
    3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

    4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5364235 - 03/04/06 01:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Once some idiot at my job told me there was a great dissconnect between multiplication and addition.  This sparked my interest, so I asked him and he proceded to tell me the missing dollar story :lol:  I never could convince him there was no missing dollar.


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
        #5364252 - 03/04/06 01:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    diplo, hehe, yes, hope that the airplane won't come into a situation, which is not pre-programmed in its avionics, and the computer will use linear mathematics to manage the problem :lol:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5371052 - 03/06/06 04:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    cunundrum: If you have 8 apples and ask math how many people you will need, that the apples won't satisfy them ?
    It's answer is: Less than one !

    :heart:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5374665 - 03/07/06 05:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I cant believe you are still bringing this up. I basically view you as the mental equivalent of a child.


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    InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5374669 - 03/07/06 05:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    :nono:


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5374908 - 03/07/06 06:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Still not gotten it ?!
    :lol:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5374933 - 03/07/06 06:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I thought you understood what apples/human meant? Didnt you claim that you were in error earlier? You are trying to give half a person 8 apples, and you are claiming he gets 16. You are treating half a person as a singular entity, so the units are apples/(half human). This would still give you 8 since there is only ONE HALF PERSON.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5375043 - 03/07/06 07:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Yes. I did not see the mathematical answer, because it is in a different context than my question :smile: I did not see, that math says, if you give 8 apples to half a person, one whole person will get 16.
    But nevertheless, that IS where math leaves reality, definitively :lol:
    I would like to explore that fact a little bit more, because it really can get to a problem in some security-relevant systems, like avionics. If some not preprogrammed environmental or occasional exception will get you in a situation, where 'linear' maths 'goes wild', your flight computer will perhaps say, you will need 16 tons of fuel, but you have only 8 on board :wink: And that would be only some harmless case.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5375423 - 03/07/06 08:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Yea all those times when the plane has half a tank on board... But please explore whatever you wish. Take a 'real analysis' class, it will answer a lot of your questions. Then try your hand at a 'complex analysis' class, be prepared to never trust math again though.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5377004 - 03/08/06 11:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Wrote my A grade in analysis, linear algebra, statistics and infinitisimals (17 years ago :wink:). Learned complex numbers as well. Studied 2 semesters of informatics with second course math (at university)... I send you a copy of my certificates, if you wish.
    be prepared to never trust math again though
    So we are finally on the same page, even these phenomenas start to happen much earlier :wink:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/08/06 11:45 AM)


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    InvisibleDieCommie

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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5378378 - 03/08/06 07:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:I send you a copy of my certificates, if you wish.


    What do you mean by certificate? A degree? Post them Id like to see.


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: DieCommie]
        #5378745 - 03/08/06 09:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Ha so you took some quarters of calculus? Real and Complex analysis are much much different than a basic calculus course. You can phrase it as impressive sounding as you want with words like 'infinitisimals' I know what youve studied. And what kind of linear algebra class, an intro to linear algebra lower division class?


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5380500 - 03/09/06 10:35 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    DieCommie:only possibly to thecow and only private.

    Man, that was over 17 years ago. Quarters of calculus ?
    I think the linear algebra was about matrix-calculus with vectors. You may remember that I am from Germany, so my grades are a bit different than yours and the school system also is a bit different, also I often am lazy with the english language, perhaps that is where your assumtions stem from ?? I simply shortened 'infinitesimal calculus' into 'infinitesimals'...

    So, kid, even if it does nothing to the thread: You say, you know what I have studied ? With every of your post I doubt you more. What do you have learned about math, if you know this sooooo good ?


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/09/06 10:45 AM)


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5380982 - 03/09/06 01:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Well Ive taken and am still taking math classes.  So far Ive taken about 3 years of math classes on and off, some from the math department, some from the physics department, and some from the electrical engineering department.  Im not hear to :whatever: all over this thread, as Im still an undergrad and thus dont feel Im very knowledgeable about math, but I at least know division.  This is why I cant imagine youve taken anything more than a basic calculus class.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5381022 - 03/09/06 01:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Then you did not understand, why I took this example. Just because it is so simple and if you will follow its logic, you will come to astonishing results.
    Perhaps it is not legitime to use a denominator smaller than 1 in this example of context, because it blows up the presettings and wanders off into fantastic assumptions ? :grin:
    Ok ok, I will be quiet now (and perhaps think of another example) :wink:

    [edit to the hard boiled ones: Interestingly this example gets right again if the denominator becomes zero. Then it says, that it can not assume how many apples one human has, if I have no example of a human with my apples here {Oops, isn't that, what the original poster did want to know almost 3 years ago ?} :lol:]

    :peace:


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/09/06 03:56 PM)


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5381064 - 03/09/06 02:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I understand why you thought it didnt work, and I also understand your error. But please think of another example.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5381511 - 03/09/06 04:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Now, we'll take the wild ride :wink:
    Interestingly this example gets right again if the denominator becomes zero. Then it says, that it can not assume how many apples one human has, if I have no example of a human with my apples here {Oops, isn't that, what the original poster did want to know almost 3 years ago ?}
    And youwanna  know why this example gets right with a denominator being zero ?
    It's because if someone will find an apple with an atom of a human on it, he would have to assume, that the earth is covered with at least 3000 meters of apples....per human, of course :lol:
    Now, someone wanna follow me into the negatives humans to apples reality ? :rofl2:
    (sorry, couldn't resist)


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


    Edited by BlueCoyote (03/09/06 04:15 PM)


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5381599 - 03/09/06 04:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Wait so your new example, is that you just reduce the fraction. How is that new?


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5381655 - 03/09/06 04:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    I am sorry, I am still with the old example. The original starter of this thread (wherever he is now :wink:) has brought up this example. So I used my best shit now, to make it clear, how x/0 is real in reality :lol:

    (For considerations about a new example, you may also relay to my not answered thread  1 + 1 = much more  here :lol:)


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5381674 - 03/09/06 04:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    And what does that thread say that is of any importance to this topic. Play with your metaphysics, leave the science to the adults.


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5381757 - 03/09/06 05:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Leave the kids their forms and get the adults to exploration.


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5381822 - 03/09/06 05:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    And what exactly has the metaphysics community explored? My side has all of technology, your side has what?


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5381881 - 03/09/06 05:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Light sharing on knowledge for the better usage of (mathematical) concepts in an existence- and reality-comforming way ?!


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5381884 - 03/09/06 05:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    What


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    OfflineBlueCoyote
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
        #5381886 - 03/09/06 05:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    that


    --------------------
    Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
    ......................................................
    "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
    'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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    OfflineTheCow
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5382015 - 03/09/06 06:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Explain that a bit more man. Also make me some tacos, otherwise Im going to have to buy some, and that my friend, would be a hassle.


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    Offlinefireworks_godS
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    Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
        #5384744 - 03/10/06 11:01 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    BlueCoyote said:
    Light sharing on knowledge for the better usage of (mathematical) concepts in an existence- and reality-comforming way ?!




    Mathematical concepts actually have to be based in math. :lol:



    It just seems to be necessary in order for it to be a concept that is mathematical. :smirk:

    :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
    Peace. :mushroom2:


    --------------------
    :redpanda:
    If I should die this very moment
    I wouldn't fear
    For I've never known completeness
    Like being here
    Wrapped in the warmth of you
    Loving every breath of you

    :heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

    :yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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