
Deiymiyan
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Mathematical Explanation...
#1838650  08/21/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


In terms of mathematics, how far have we come?
We add and subtract... multiply and divide... create scenarios of probabilities... comb trough permutations... Algebra... Geometry... Possible subatomic interactions...
All of these physical possibilities...
And Calculus puts it all into motion. Our fourth dimension... Time related events.
Is there any form of math that goes beyond rates of change?
What about division by zero... Does that have any significance yet? So far, a calculator will not give a good answer.
Are there any math gurus out there who might, perhaps, shed some light concerning the kinds of current limits math has reached?
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

pattern
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1838767  08/21/03 08:17 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


I'm inclined to say that artificial intelligence is the height of mathematical expression. Certainly not the most complicated or complex, but it does reveal some limits.
 man = monkey + mushroom

kaiowas
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: pattern]
#1839064  08/21/03 09:56 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


i took 4th level calculus (differential equations, D.E.) and linear algebra last year. differential equations dealt with rate of change with respect to many variables. Linear algebra on the other hand dealt with techniques on simplifiying and sometimes even solving systems of equations (ie. 4 equations are related and you find out how). I'm no guru, but that shit was mind expanding. Especially when representing four variables in the 3d plane (without any of the variables being held constant). basically an equation in four dimensions (four variables) is represented as a 3d object. We then apply either cartesian (sp?) or spherical coordinates and look at the rate of change over the surface area of the equation represented. dunno if that made any sense or not, though I'm trying now onto dividing by zero. you can't divide by zero, because even though 0 exists, if you divide by it you will miss other solutions. This is a neat concept. In a D.E equation dy/dx=a*y, y=0 is a solution (dy/dx is the infinitesimal rate of change of y with repect to x ie the differential; y is a variable and a is a constant). why is y=0 a solution? well looking at both sides of the equation 0*a=0. if y is zero then dy/dx is zero. so 0=0. so say you want to find the constant "a" (finding constants is very impotant in physics). in order to do this you need to divide by y. now y is a variable (could be any number), but you already know y=0 is a solution, therefore you have to account for it, or else you can't find "a." Therfore when you divide by y, a sidenote must be written (for all other y not equal to 0 in this case) where is this going? in caluclus you would find an equation for the general solution (the nonzero solution). in this example the general equation (whic is the solution to the DE) is y=C*e^(a*x). you would then graph this solution alongside with the zero solution. what happens is that the two solution equations NEVER cross, and this is why you have to account for zero. so how do you know which one is actual solutions (since we have two or three for one DE)? easy, it depends on your starting point. if you start at 0, then you will use the resulting solution of the D.E equation that used y=0. if not, then you use the other one. this is why we need to look at everything, and the limit of dividing by 0 is very useful. hope that gave a couple of good points in my rambling
 Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: kaiowas]
#1839136  08/21/03 10:25 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


I......HATE.........MATH... It gives me Aneurisms Fuck Math MAth Sucks I HATE MATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

trendal
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1839326  08/22/03 12:12 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


A good place to look for cuttingedge mathematics is in String theory. One of the biggest hurdles yet to be overcome in string theory is mathematics which we don't understand yet.
Calabiyau shapes seem the most interesting to me at the moment
Look, here's a 2D representation of one:

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

MindTrap
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: trendal]
#1839332  08/22/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


or Chaos Theory

trendal
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: MindTrap]
#1839344  08/22/03 12:18 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Chaos theory lead me to an entirely different explanation of life.
Life, just as any large chaotic system, might obey the laws of chaos theory and thus order springs from the disorder.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

wavesoflight
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: trendal]
#1839346  08/22/03 12:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


WOW, that shape is nuts! I wish I were more into math. I only understand it on such a superficial level. My cousin is going back to school to get his degree and then Ph.D in it and he definitely speaks on a different level than me because he's studied it pretty intensively now for a few years.
Edited by wavesoflight (08/22/03 12:20 AM)

MindTrap
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
#1839349  08/22/03 12:21 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


The God equation.
We all know the answer is 42. It's figuring out what that damn equation is that's so difficult.

Faaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
#1839359  08/22/03 12:24 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


math frys my brain too, though I wish I could do more with it.
try n wrap your head around this one...........
infinity minus one......
WTF!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

trendal
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
#1839361  08/22/03 12:24 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Don't think that you have to go to school to learn a thing...

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

kaiowas
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
#1839368  08/22/03 12:27 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


inifinity minus one is just that. most of the time there can be a simplified solution when infinity is the variable (as it appears lots of times in physics). lots of times looking at one less than infinity shows can present a lot of information on how the curve (equation on a graph) moves. hehe I love math (such a nerd )
 Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

wavesoflight
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: kaiowas]
#1839389  08/22/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


That talk about infinity just made me laugh, I could feel my brain trying to grasp that. Couldn't.

Malachi
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: wavesoflight]
#1839464  08/22/03 01:16 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


I was briefly friends with this tiny vegan girl who was a math major... she held book club meetings at her apartment. first the republic, then a segway into math, flatland (really fun read) euclids elements. euclidian geometry = not my bag. I haven't even taken college algebra yet.. dread....
flatland was really interesting, it's about a 2d world. it's by a guy named Edwin A. Abbott, and it was written a looong time ago so you can get those super cheap dover editions. flatland it malachi's pick of the week, my full endorsement. pick it up at a library or bookstore near you.
 The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragicdemonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the selfsurrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.  Paul Tillich

Mystical_Craven
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1839472  08/22/03 01:21 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


This is the extent of my mathmatical knowledge:
Teacher  What is pi? Craven  mmmm...pie... *drools*
too much I guess
 "Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

Merkin
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This is the answer :> to your question
 Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!

neutralizer
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Merkin]
#1839849  08/22/03 08:06 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


So, where does "the answer is 42" come from? How did we find this answer without ever knowing the question?
 There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors  Morrison

Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1839884  08/22/03 08:22 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


I have no clue what mathematicians are up to nowadays, and I doubt that they understand what most of it will be useful for. It can take a long time from the publication of some mathematical result to the first time it is ever used to explain something in some new scientific theory.
Of pre20th century mathematics, I know that all of the following branches have been very useful in science and engineering:
Algebra. Algebraic geometry. Differential calculus. Variational calculus. Fourier transforms. Vector algebra. Probability theory. Boolean algebra. Group theory. Number theory.
And I probably forgot something important in that list...
From the 20th century we also have Chaos Theory and Differential Geometry, although both have their roots in the 19th century.
Kurt G?del's Incompleteness Theorem is also a product of the 20th century, and in my opinion one of most important discoveries ever made. It has no practical usefulness in other sciences, but it affected the foundations of mathematics in a profound way, and thereby it also affected epistemology.
Group Theory and Number Theory were long seen as "pure" mathematics, meaning that it has no practical use. But group theory together with differential geometry is now at the core of particle physics, and number theory is the foundation of modern publickey cryptography.
As far as limits go, mathematicians have always tried to transcend limits by extending the range of the objects of discussion. The invention of zero is a famous example, and even "1" was once considered slightly controversial by some (you see why if you think of "number" as a thing that denotes a multiple of some single thing).
Negative numbers, rational numbers, real numbers, complex numbers, quaternions, octonions, vectors, tensors, and groups are all examples of such extensions. Mathematicians have become really good at this.
Division by zero is a different sort of limit, because of the way division is defined. Division is defined as the inverse of multiplication: A/B is defined as the solution X to the equation X*B = A. This has a unique solution when B is any number but zero, it has an infinite number of solutions when both A and B are zero, and it has no solutions at all when A is nonzero and B is zero. Extending the numbers to include solutions for the last case won't be of any help for the multisolution case.

trendal
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: neutralizer]
#1840079  08/22/03 09:40 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


A race of higherdimensional beings once built a massive computer to answer the question of "life, the universe, and everything".
It spent millions of years searching for the answer.
In the end, it decided, the answer was "42".
The problem is, the higherdimensional beings don't know what the question is.
But the answer is 42.
Or you could read some Douglas Adams work

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

GazzBut
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
#1840101  08/22/03 09:46 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Infinity 1 = infinity?
How about this one...
You go to a hotel with infinite rooms and ask for a room but the receptionist tells you all the rooms are full (infinite amount of guests!) how can you get a room in the hotel??
If any of you have read any Rudy Rucker and know the answer let the guys have a crack at it and dont reveal the answer! I must admit that I couldnt work this one out myself!
 Always Smi2le

MindTrap
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: GazzBut]
#1840108  08/22/03 09:49 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Quote:
GazzBut said: You go to a hotel with infinite rooms and ask for a room but the receptionist tells you all the rooms are full (infinite amount of guests!) how can you get a room in the hotel??
Brute force?

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1840966  08/22/03 02:07 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Given a = b:
a^2 = ab
a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2  2ab = a^2 + ab  2ab
2a^2  2ab = a^2 ab
2(a^2 ab) = 1(a^2  ab)
2 = 1
QED LOL!!
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

lucid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: GazzBut]
#1840985  08/22/03 02:13 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


NComplete Problems and the Combinatorial Explosion... Good Stuff...let me know if u have a solution, I'll give ya 5 bucks fer it
 "nomind unthinks nothought..."

lucid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: lucid]
#1841014  08/22/03 02:19 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


^^ Look up "The traveling Sales Person Problem" and the entire class of NComplete problems...
 "nomind unthinks nothought..."

Xibalba
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#1841128  08/22/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:15 AM)

Deiymiyan
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1841252  08/22/03 03:48 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Wonderful contributions from everyone!
Anyone want to talk some more on the subject...?
The String theory sounds intriguing... I've read that it appears to have a "dead end" .. Seems to lap with Supergravity which may be a system in which the String is housed.
Any thoughts? I'd like to look into that a little more if anyone has a reasonable grasp on the subject matter.
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#1841321  08/22/03 04:19 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Quote:
Diploid said: Given a = b:
a^2 = ab
a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2  2ab = a^2 + ab  2ab
2a^2  2ab = a^2 ab
2(a^2 ab) = 1(a^2  ab)
2 = 1
QED LOL!!
sure 2=1 but since a^2ab is 0, then 2=1 doesn't matter, because you have to account for 0, and not DIVIDE by it.
 Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

Phobos
Registered: 10/14/00
Posts: 435

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: kaiowas]
#1841499  08/22/03 05:06 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Without much thought, I'd have to say there's way no way to get into the hotel. The statement that the rooms are "full", whether the rooms are infinite or not still stands. The hotel is FULL.. would this understanding be correct? Any arguments?

Xibalba
Stranger
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Phobos]
#1842792  08/23/03 03:09 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:14 AM)

Phobos
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Xibalba]
#1842796  08/23/03 03:11 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


They would HAVE to be infinitely polite, considering an infinite amount of people would have to move their belongings into the next room, when you could have just went down the road to the Holiday Inn that was vacant.

fireworks_god
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Phobos]
#1842870  08/23/03 07:09 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Or you could just go to the last door and move in, instead of having everyone else move, you yourself could be infinitely polite.... hehe
Infinity doesn't make sense to us, does it? Nope. If there are infinite rooms and infinite people in those rooms, where does the room for you come from? I have no fucking clue... Peace.
 If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you

Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
#1842896  08/23/03 07:58 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


It's called "Hilbert's Hotel", and the Wikipedia article about this hotel mentions an even crazier story:
No cigars may be brought into the hotel. Yet each of the guests (all rooms had guests at the time) got a cigar while in the hotel. How is this? The guest in Room 1 got a cigar from the guest in Room 2. The guest in Room 2 had previously received two cigars from the guest in Room 3. The guest in Room 3 had previously received three cigars from the guest in Room 4, etc. Each guest kept one cigar and passed the remainder to the guest in the nextlowernumbered room.

Deiymiyan
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1843022  08/23/03 09:38 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


I sure hope that the infinite1 numbered guest brought with them their "heavyduty infinity bag" to carry the infinate number of cigars with them.
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1845020  08/24/03 07:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


I don't know anything about the math of String Theory except that it combines the math of Quantum Field Theory with the math of curved spacetime. But any quantum theory of gravity would have to connect with those two types of math in some way.
One interesting aspect of mathematical explanations is whether the fundamental objects described are discrete or continuous. For example, a gas or a liquid is always treated as a continuous quantity in equations that describe the macroscopic mechanics of gasses and liquids, but on a microscopic level we know that they are actually a discrete number of atoms or molecules. Then on a subatomic level we find quantum fields, which are continuous quantities. Then on the still smaller Planck level, we will likely see some sort of discrete structure again, although we don't yet know what is the correct theory at that scale.
I used to believe that our most precise models should be discrete because the real information content of any theory must be finite. But then I realized that this presumes that information is quantized, which I'm not so sure about any more.

Deiymiyan
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1845099  08/24/03 09:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


"One interesting aspect of mathematical explanations is whether the fundamental objects described are discrete or continuous. For example, a gas or a liquid is always treated as a continuous quantity in equations that describe the macroscopic mechanics of gasses and liquids, but on a microscopic level we know that they are actually a discrete number of atoms or molecules. Then on a subatomic level we find quantum fields, which are continuous quantities. Then on the still smaller Planck level, we will likely see some sort of discrete structure again..." 
You know how there is duality in the ParticleWave theorum...
That might mean that there is also a duality in this case as well... "The DiscreteContinuous Theorum"... Where the relativity of each independent part is proportionnal to the scaling factor...
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1845307  08/24/03 11:57 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Quote:
this presumes that information is quantized, which I'm not so sure about any more.
In Information Theory it is treated as quantized and that seems to be intuitively correct. Diploid
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#1845572  08/24/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Yeah, a classical signal transmits discrete bits of information, and we're used to think about information as 1's and 0's. But information theory also has the concept of "mutual information" which is defined as the reduction of the Shannon entropy after some new piece of knowledge has been acquired. This entropy reduction does not have to take integer values, it can be a fractional number of bits. But it may still come in discrete levels if the probabilities of the possible states are quantized... which might be the case if information is quantized. Eh.

Xibalba
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1845638  08/24/03 02:42 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:11 AM)

Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Xibalba]
#1845828  08/24/03 04:08 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Both are named after David Hilbert. But there is no other connection between Hilbert's Hotel and Hilbert spaces, except if you count the fact that some Hilbert spaces have an infinite number of dimensions.

GazzBut
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Xibalba]
#1847708  08/25/03 07:27 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Good work Xibalba!!
 Always Smi2le

whiterasta
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1847753  08/25/03 08:18 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Query? zero and infinity are indivisible(half an infinity is still an infinity) would not the equation 0=infinity be true? and if infinity is all encompassing then also infinity =1 as there can only be one infinty therefore 0=1 which then becomes the expression of reality from potential.The equation infinity=1 is acurate as all "things" are merely subunits of the greater set called infinity therefore not discrete.This eliminates the paradox of a divided infinity.So would not the only indivisble quantities be equivilant? or opposite? Also if 0=1 then 1=0=1 is also true as infinity also encompasses negativity.This gives rise to 1=1 which is true as 1 is the reflective equivilant of 1.So if infinity=1or 1 and 0 then we gain the quantum refresh rate of the universe,a binary system,in which 1 and1 are interchangable values arising from 0,which is the potential space from which reality arises.In other words the universe is a endless expression of the progresion of 1=0=1 at an extremevibratory rate.Given this theory the only true integers are 0and 1 all other integers are in fact fractions of the one(infinty)and since infinty cannot be divided they in effect do not exist except as convienience to explain many of the lesser events within the boundaries of reality. Mathematics are finite and usefull for understanding the finite however they crumble upon the interjection of the infinite.Chaos theory attempts to cloak some of the workings of the infinite in a finite mathematical robe however,many of the flaws of the theory are due to inappropriate zeros and infinitudes appearing in equations.Once it is realized that 0 and infinty are the equation then work can begin understanding how 0and Infinity are linked in our expression of reality. WR
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Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
#1847888  08/25/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


The equality sign is normally used to signify that its left and right operands denote the same thing when they are evaluated. You are using it to signify the equivalence of certain properties of the left and operands. This is not standard usage. The standard way to express that zero and infinity both have the property of indivisibility would be to say f(0) & f(infinity), where f(x) symbolizes the statement that x is indivisible. Or you could say f(0) = f(infinity), which says that both 0 and infinity have the same indivisibility property, but it doesn't say if that property is true or false.
I agree with you that the introduction of infinity tends to make things crumble. Infinity is really just a synonym for openendedness, and it's in the nature of openendedness that any attempt to capture all its properties will fail.

Seuss
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
#1848037  08/25/03 10:59 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


> zero and infinity are indivisible(half an infinity is still an infinity) would not the equation 0=infinity be true?
It is a common mistake to think of infinity as a number. Infinity is concept, not a number in the real number system. This is from the definition of what a real number is. You can append the element infinity (or perhaps two elements, infinity and infinity) to the set of real numbers, but then your set of numbers is no longer the set of real numbers, but something else.
When treated as a number, there are many cases where expressions with infinity are indeterminate. For example:
infinity + (infinity) (infinity) + infinity infinity  infinity (infinity)  (infinity) 0 * infinity infinity * 0 0 * (infinity) (infinity) * 0 infinity / infinity infinity / (infinity) (infinity) / infinity (infinity) / (infinity) infinity / 0 = infinity (infinity) / 0 = infinity
Each of these expressions can have a large range of different values, depending on exactly where the "infinity" parts came from.
As a result, the system you construct by adding infinity to the set of real numbers is no longer closed under addition,subtraction, multiplication, or division.
When you equate 0=infinity, you are comparing apples and oranges. The rules used for common arithmetic no longer hold true, thus the apparent conflict that you pointed out...
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Seuss]
#1848168  08/25/03 11:49 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Isn't 0 by definition all that is not?Does 0 have a mathematical definition or is it also an open ended "infinity" of nothing?We obviously live somewhere in a state between the open infinite and the infinite nothing.This is whence my statement of mathematics being confined to the finite,a tool to describe the state between two infinitudes.In mathematics one is either working with fractions of the infinitude or additions to an infinite nothing.Pragmatic and practical but not perhaps representative of actuality. Just some philosophical meanderings,but they still occupy much mental RAM from time to time. WR.
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Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
#1848305  08/25/03 12:45 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


The mathematical definition of zero is the number which when added to any number gives the same number: 0 + x = x, for any number x.
Zero is a special case of the socalled identity element in group theory. In any mathematical group, there is an operator function that maps two group members to another group member. And one of the group members is called the "identity element" because when combined with another group member via the operator function, the result is identical with that other group member.
In the group of natural numbers with the operator function being arithmetic addition, the identity element is the number zero. And zero is a bonafide number. Without zero, there is no identity element and consequently no mathematical group. Infinity on the other hand is not a number, unless you change the definition of number just to incorporate infinity. But doing that will only capture one particular aspect of openendedness. Sooner or later, other aspects will be found that weren't captured by such a definition.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1848451  08/25/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


Let's take a function like F(x)= 1/x When graphed on an xy plane, the line becomes separated @ x=0 where the limits become +/ infinity depending upon which direction you go... I've always wondered... what the +/ aspects of infinity relative to the 2D plane meant... Would that, in any way, be like overlapping [or coming close to] over to a 3D plane relative to the 2D? I mean, any piece of a 3D plane would be kind of like an infinate point +x relative to a 2D plane... 3D is "out of bounds" to 2D... Would a theoretical point "+infinity" on a 2D plane be like its boundary near 3D; and "infinity" be like the boundary approaching 1D? Basically what I'm asking is, in relation to which dimension we are discussing, can infinity +/ be that particular dimension's boundaries relative to its neighbours? Then, from a vantage point synonymous to 1D, the concept of all and nothing, relative to it, would seem to kind of make sense. What do you guys think? [*edit Or am I just "out to lunch" on this?]
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

Seuss
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1848965  08/25/03 04:04 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


> What do you guys think?
I think I need to go home and smoke some before what you ask makes sense...
If a being lived in a 2d world (picture a dot on a sheet of paper) and a 3dworld object passed through the 2d world, what would the 2d observer see? In our paper example, if a pencil was pushed through the paper, the 2d observer would see a point that comes out of nowhere, grows into a line or curve (regardless of the direction it is observed from), and then disappears into nothing again.
Does this tie in to what you are asking?
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Seuss]
#1849228  08/25/03 05:52 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) 


"If a being lived in a 2d world (picture a dot on a sheet of paper) and a 3dworld object passed through the 2d world, what would the 2d observer see?" 
If a being [as a dot] on a 2D plane existed, wouldn't that make the being of 1D magnitude?
Maybe it an illustration would make more sense...
Picture a clear 3D cube who's boundaries are clearly visible [ie the area of the cube].
Now, within the cube, draw a 2D plane; on this plane, draw a dot.
You now have, in front of you a 3D shape, within it a 2D plane and on it, a 1D dot.
The 2D plane with respect to the dot is the dot's magnitude [it's relative finite size, as compared to the plane] + a [a, being the remaining size {area} of the plane]...
The entire magnitude of the dot, relative to itself, would be infinity [where, infinity, as I've learned throughout my studies in High School, is nothing more than a very large number... so, in fact, finite then]... In essence, the dot's boundary.
The 2D plane goes beyond the bounds of the dot... but INCLUDES the dot.
Now relative to the 3D space, the volume includes the total area of the plane + the remaining volume.
Taking it from the perspective of the 2D plane, the 3D cube is the boundaries of 2D, which are already infinately larger than the boundaries of the 1D dot, + v let's say [v=volume of the cube].
Sizewise now, the cube is all around the plane which is all around the dot.
You can take a section of the 3D space and represent it on the plane, but you only get the tip of the iceburg, so to speak. So this section seen on the 2D plane is a small piece of a larger dimensionnal body.
You can't see the full representation of the next higher dimension... only a "snippet" of it.
Realtive to the dot, the cube is very much infinately larger.
I hope I used the right descriptive words here.
So going back to the initial post I made... Could +/ infinity represent the outermost boundary of a particular Dimension?
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#5337880  02/25/06 12:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Bump.
And who says math can't represent reality?
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#5350727  02/28/06 07:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


What about division by zero... Does that have any significance yet?
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 4 people, how many apples does each person get. Answer 2 per person.
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 2 people, how many apples does each person get. Answer 4 per person.
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 1 person, how many apples does each person get. Answer: the one guy gets all 8.
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 0 people, how many apples does each person get. Uh... but there aren't any people.
This is why you can't divide by 0. It is a meaningless operation.
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5350751  02/28/06 07:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Actually its anything but a meaningless equation. It is actually very useful in high mathematics, with poles and other things.

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5350788  02/28/06 07:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Division by zero is not allowed even in fields other than the reals.
Division by zero is defined in some fields, the extended complex plane (the Riemann Sphere) for example, where it's defined as complex infinity, but it's still not allowed; only defined.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (02/28/06 07:52 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5350874  02/28/06 08:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I was merely saying its not meaningless it has uses in math, I use it on a weekly basis, some classes on a daily basis.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5352926  03/01/06 09:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


If you cut the last person in two parts, each half will still get 8 full apples. Or does each part get 16 apples ? What ? If you cut a person in any parts, each part will get 8 apples..where do they come from ? The amout of apples increases if you start cutting humans into parts.
math as representation of reality ?

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5353557  03/01/06 01:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I will be honest: Some very complex and deep matters and formulas of math do fit exactly to reality (because they normaly tend to describe it  at least, that is where math came from), while some other, very simple and primary rules of math break every bond, understanding and logic of reality.

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5353575  03/01/06 01:17 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Such as

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5353928  03/01/06 03:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


If you cut the last person in two parts, each half will still get 8 full apples.
Nope.
If you divide 8 apples among 2 halfpersons, each halfperson gets 4 apples. The whole person still gets 8.
Simple.
Math is ALWAYS consistent (if incomplete).
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353942  03/01/06 03:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Speaking of logic, here's a logic brain twister:
You're sealed in a room with two doors. One door leads to your certain death, the other to freedom.
In front of the two doors are two robots who know which door will kill you and which will set you free. One robot ALWAYS tells the truth, the other ALWAYS lies.
* You're allowed to ask one robot one question.
What question would you ask to determine which door to go through?
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (03/01/06 03:57 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353968  03/01/06 03:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Ask both: "Are you a robot?" Then, ask the one who anwsers "Yes": "Does this door lead to certian death?" If the robot anwsers "Yes" then I open the other door, if the robot anwsers "No", then I open that door.

gettinjiggywithit
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353973  03/01/06 03:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Ask each one if they are a robot. The lying one will have to lie about what it is saying it's something else. Then, ask the truth telling one which is the door to freedom.
I hope that question has an answer and you plan on sharing it later.
 Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Diploid
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Ooops, my bad. See edit. Only ONE question allowed.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

MushmanTheManic
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353983  03/01/06 03:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/01/06 03:51 PM)

Diploid
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That reduces to simply asking which door leads to certain death. It doesn't resolve the ambiguity.
And jiggy, yes, there is an answer.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

MushmanTheManic
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5354003  03/01/06 03:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I noticed.

MushmanTheManic
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Ask one of the robots: "If I asked the other robot, would he tell me this door leads to certian death?"
If the robot anwsers "No", then open that door. If the robot anwsers "Yes", then walk through the other one.

Diploid
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DING DING DING!
Mushman wins the spiked brownies.
You guys are too smart around here...
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

MushmanTheManic
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5354029  03/01/06 04:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Yipee!

it stars saddam
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Quote:
Diploid said: You're sealed in a room with two doors. One door leads to your certain death, the other to freedom.
In front of the two doors are two robots who know which door will kill you and which will set you free. One robot ALWAYS tells the truth, the other ALWAYS lies.
* You're allowed to ask one robot one question.
What question would you ask to determine which door to go through?
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Ask one of the robots: "If I asked the other robot, would he tell me this door leads to certian death?"
If the robot anwsers "No", then open that door. If the robot anwsers "Yes", then walk through the other one.
Wow, it took me 10 mins to wrap my mind around this.

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Math is fun to think about in terms of computers and brains...both definable by a discrete mathematical system...One is known, the other is not. Both are similar, yet both are very different. The brain runs on algorithms and has an "OS," just like a computer. It has it's own assembly language (i.e. neurotransmitters) to control datapath and memory. On it's most basic level, the brain is a binary machine, meaning, you should be able to, with the right technology decompile the software of the brain and figure out what makes us tick. I already am certain of one thing, the algorithms of the brain are chaotic systems...
 Purple haze, all in my brain, lately things just don't seem the same. Actin' funny but I don't know why, 'scuse me while I kiss the sky.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5356714  03/02/06 08:56 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? To stay with the apples: 8 people, each gets one, 4 people each gets 2, 2 people each gets 4, 1 person gets 8 and half a person gets 16. Has he to share them with his imaginable other half, so he gets invisible apples ? In which way does this describe reality ? Does it mean, that if you leave the space of the natural numbers, the laws go crazy with reality ? Does it say "Oh, you bad boy, you have halved a person, that is not right here, so you have to half the apples too, so that every new part gets equal amounts. So you get 16 parts of apples." The whole referencesystem changed and went crazy with that step and that describes reality ? Where is the error, at least you can divide 8 apples to 16 persons without problems... ?!
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/02/06 09:17 AM)

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5359342  03/02/06 08:18 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? ... it mean, that if you leave the space of the natural numbers, the laws go crazy with reality ?
No. It means you have represented the reality problem incorrectly in the equation.
What you've incorrectly represented is more akin to dividing the 8 Apples among two baskets that can each hold only halfapples but never entire whole apples. Since the baskets will not accept whole apples, you have to cut the 8 into 16 halves, then divide the 16 among the 2 baskets. But that's not the problem presented, and your inadvertent change of the problem is what leads to your odd result.
To avoid this confusion, drop English and switch to the precision, abstract language used by logicians. Instead of Apples and Halfpeople, think objects A and H.
You have 8 of object A (the Apples) and 2 of object H (the Halfpeople).
8 of A divided among 2 of H results in 4 of A for each H. <<< Correct Answer
When you've completed the computation, substitute back the realworld words (Apples and Halfpeople) for the abstract A and H, and you'll always get the right answer.
Note that if you now join the two Halfpeople into one whole person, you'll still have the correct answer in that the nowwhole person will end up with all 8 apples.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5360624  03/03/06 04:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


But if there is only one halfperson, why does he get 16 apples (if I follow the mathematical row) ? Why x/y=z, the z gets bigger than the x if y goes below 1 ? Give me one example in nature and reality, so I can comprehend that please. That ever was weird to me
edit: It somehow shows, if you want to half or third the apples, how many pieces you will get out in total, but where is the link to the human  I wanted to half them ? Where are we leaving/changing the frame of refernce ? Why does half a human only can get halfapple units ??
TheCow:Perhaps there we can see, that math can represent reality, but reality not nescessarily has to follow math
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 04:29 AM)

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361320  03/03/06 11:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Ha this is remarkable. You have 8 apples, 8 humans. 8/8 = 1 apples/human.
If you have 1/2 of a human, than 8 apples / (1/2) of a human, gives you 16 apples/human. Oh but theres more apples you cry! If you are giving a 1/2 of a person 8 apples, then of course a whole human will get 16! I cant believe this discussion has been going on for so long.
You are for some reason defining a half of a person as a whole person at the end. You are saying look this half of a person is getting 16 apples. NO. It is apples/human. So a whole human, 2 halves of a human will get 16 apples.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361366  03/03/06 12:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


It is easy to dismiss math as not having any value when one does not understand what math is (or its magnificent ability to represent reality), which is necessary in order to find the value within it.
Peace.
 If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you

BlueCoyote
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Perhaps some have to understand reality a bit better to see, where mathematics cracks up with it ?
If you are giving a 1/2 of a person 8 apples, then of course a whole human will get 16! I cant believe this discussion has been going on for so long. Because math says here if a whole man gets 8 apples, half a man gets 16, as you see, the opposite of what you say.
I only have 8 apples to share ! That is where math conjures up more apples than I have under certain circumstances. Why are my 8 apples enough for any number of people greater or equal than one, but are not enough if I start to part the human ? I don't ask how much fictional apples a whole human will get, I ask, how much apples half a human will get. Where and why does math leave reality ?

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361469  03/03/06 12:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Man, alright let me get back to 5th grade math here.
1/2 of a human isnt getting 16 apples. The units are apples/human. This mean the number of apples per 1 human. You are defining one human as a singular entity, not a half a human. Now if you say 8 apples / (1/2) human, than you are saying 16 apples/human. This is ONE human, not 1/2 of a human. Each half of a human gets 8 apples. There is no magical extra apples.
Ill explain it in even more dumbed down terms. If you cut someone in half. Give that half 8 apples. Which is what you are saying, than that half will have 8 apples. If you keep the same relationship, than if you add that half of a human to the other half, creating ONE human again, than that ONE human will have 16 apples.
To state it differently. 8 apples / 2 humans. Is 4 apples per human. Right? Every WHOLE human gets 4 apples ok? If you have one human, 8/1 is 8 apples for every ONE human. If you have 1/2 of a human, every WHOLE human gets 16 apples because each half of him gets 8. So there is no creating of extra apples, as every half still gets the maximum amount of apples, YOU are multiplying the answer by 2 because you are saying apples per ONE HUMAN. Sorry if that sounds irate, but honestly man, use some reasoning.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361517  03/03/06 01:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


That was a nice explanation, thank you very much (really) ! And now I see, where math leaves reality: It is so overexact, that it implies, that if I give 8 apples to half a human, a whole human must have 16 apples. It doesn't consider, that there are perhaps only 8 apples, or the other half won't get any apples, so it wents into pure fiction and changes MY question about the probelm into its own answer But isn't it somehow a crazy answer: If you share 8 apples to half a human, each human gets 16 ? Of course I agree that it follows mathematical logic, but it is hard to reason in human terms for that.
Thank you for clearing that up, that approves that math not nescessarily has to do something with reality or the perception of it

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361529  03/03/06 01:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Ha alright. Fine whatever Im not going to argue with a man who has literally 0 grasp on common sense. Do you even understand what division is? Do you have any grasp at all on reality in any sense of the word I have to wonder. You have 8 apples total, hey guess what, you need more apples man. You cant feed the world with 8 apples, if you want to feed more than half of a person give the man 16 apples, hey you only have 8? Thats fine, give him 8 apples and half of him will be fed. Edit(2nd): Alright whatever, I dont need to try and explain it further.
Edited by TheCow (03/03/06 01:20 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361546  03/03/06 01:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? To stay with the apples: 8 people, each gets one, 4 people each gets 2, 2 people each gets 4, 1 person gets 8 and half a person gets 16.
A half of a person does not get 16. You, apparently, do not know how to accurately perform your equation, " 8 / .5 = 16".
First off, you cannot have a fraction such as " 8 / .5 ", as " .5 " itself IS(!!!!!!!!) a fraction itself! " .5 " is an alternate representation of the fraction " 1 / 2 ". Are you with me so far? You cannot represent " 8 / 1 / 2 " as a fraction, it does not comply with the notation one is using.
Just as you cannot solve " 1a + 5 = 3b " without cancelling out your unlike terms, you cannot perform " 8 / .5 " without doing so.
What can one do? Why, one can move the decimal.
One would have to move the decimal in " .5 " one slot to the right, in order to transform it into a whole number. Thus, one must apply the same operation to the other side of the equation, and move the decimal point in " 8 " (which, even though it is not visible, is right behind the number eight ).
That would give you what fraction?
" 80 / 5 ".
Well, that's great, but we aren't finished yet. One has to reduce one's numbers to the point at which they will no longer reduce down further. How many fives are in eighty? We could divide both sides by " 5 " (remember, one simply must perform the same operation on both sides of the equation ), now couldn't we?
What is 80 divided by 5? 16. That gives one the fraction 16/1. Each half of a human gets 16 apples. The ratio " 16 / 1 " is the same ratio that you initially described, " 8 / .5"; we have simply translated it into a different form in order to correctly represent it as a fraction.
Obviously, if every half ( as in, .5, 1/2, etc.) of a human receives 8 apples, then if you multiply the ratio by 2, (which would look like this: " 8 x 2 / .5 x 2", of course ), you would result with " 16 / 1 ".
To put it into English, A half of a person receives 8 apples. Two halves of a person receives 16 apples.
You are stating that you are only handing out eight apples to one halfhuman, and that is all of the apples there are. Obviously, then, one cannot hand 8 more apples to another person. Obviously, relative to the specific example of handing 8 apples to half of a person, another half person never enters the example.
It is as though you are taking something from math and trying to say it is doing something that it isn't.
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361557  03/03/06 01:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: And now I see, where math leaves reality: It is so overexact, that it implies, that if I give 8 apples to half a human, a whole human must have 16 apples. It doesn't consider, that there are perhaps only 8 apples, or the other half won't get any apples, so it wents into pure fiction and changes MY question about the probelm into its own answer
Math isn't relevant to how many fucking apples you have. One doesn't attempt to state that mathematics says " 2 + 2 = 4", but I only have two spoons on my table, so math says I add two more spoons and then have four, when I only have two spoons, so I can't add two more.
Where is the reason in such a statement? I ask you, where? Where?
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361561  03/03/06 01:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


>>Ha alright. Fine whatever Im not going to argue with a man who has literally 0 grasp on common sense. Do you even understand what division is? Do you have any grasp at all on reality in any sense of the word I have to wonder. << Thank you, same goes back to you. Sure I will not argue this.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361568  03/03/06 01:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Man Im fairly certain I had a greater grasp on the basics of reality in 2nd grade than you do now. Honestly this whole affair has left me somewhat speechless.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361584  03/03/06 01:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


fireworks: hey, math is still righ there as: X / (1/2) = x * reciprocal value (1/2). resiprocal value of 1/2 = 2/1 = 2 so x/.5=x*2
don't blame math for it Perhaps, blame my interpretation, but I tried to follow a logical row there

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361589  03/03/06 01:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


cowieman, then look closer into the flow of reality and the flow of mathematical laws. Speechlessness isn't that bad at all
>Man Im fairly certain I had a greater grasp on the basics of reality in 2nd grade than you do now< I would not be too sure about that. But thank you, I found my bad interpretation, as the solution of the equation says >per person<. I think I've overseen this, but it still is a problem with reality, as 16 apples wont come out of nowhere, you see (obviously not) ?
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 01:41 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361607  03/03/06 01:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Yes per person. Dimensional analysis my friend. And there is no problem with the reality of it in any sense. Believe me Ive looked far into math and mathematical laws.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361619  03/03/06 01:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


There is a problem with human interpretation with this example. I did math quite far, too, and you seem to be blind to the problem. Not my problem, as I've seen it now that math doesn't cover that reality.
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 01:50 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361647  03/03/06 01:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: I think I've overseen this, but it still is a problem with reality, as 16 apples wont come out of nowhere, you see (obviously not) ?
The math never stated or implied that 16 apples would suddenly manifest out of nothing into reality, now did it?
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It simply says, if half a human has 8 apples (that is, what is known), a whole human would have 16. Whether that is real, math doesn't concern (the whole person still could have 8 ones, because the other half did not have 8) The same difference here: If you ask: share 8 apples to 2 people, math says, everyone will get 4 apples, but reality says, that one gets 6 and the other 2 or one gets 5 and the other gets 3 That is, what I did want to say and what leads back to topic.
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 02:04 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361693  03/03/06 02:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


You are a fool. There is no way you took higher mathematics dont try to imply otherwise.
And why stop at 1 person? Hey 2 people get 32 apples! Whats the deal with that?

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361697  03/03/06 02:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


And you expect a single operation to take place in one step. Divide the apples, then you subtract or add some.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361699  03/03/06 02:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: It simply says, if half a human has 8 apples (that is, what is known), a whole human would have 16.
A whole human would have 16 if said number was employed within the same proportion.
Quote:
he same difference here: If you ask: share 8 apples to 2 people, math says, everyone will get 4 apples, but reality says, that one gets 6 and the other 2 or one gets 5 and the other gets 3
8=6+2, or 8=5+3? My fucking god, an example of math representing the reality in your example.
Change the problem, change the equation.
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361709  03/03/06 02:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
TheCow said: You are a fool. There is no way you took higher mathematics dont try to imply otherwise.
And why stop at 1 person? Hey 2 people get 32 apples! Whats the deal with that?
What are you talking about and be careful with your tongue, now. Reread the thread to grasp the topic.

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fire, the problem is that math states, that if something is divided, it will be divided into equal parts. It assumes, that if half a human has 8 apples, a whole human will have 16. It states, that the other half has 8 apples, too, what is certain for math, but not certain in reality. That is, where the divergence comes from.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361746  03/03/06 02:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Give me one example in nature and reality, so I can comprehend that please.
Alright Blue, I'll try one more time with a different tack.
If you have two halfliters of milk that are each 10 days old (fresh) and you pour them both into one container, is the resulting full liter of milk suddenly 20 days old and spoiled?
When you grok why it's not, you will understand where your error is. The above is about LITERS of milk not about DAYS of time. If you are talking about liters and your math is about days, naturally, you will come up with the wrong answer.
Your error is that you're talking about one thing and calculating about another. Your math has been modeling a DIFFERENT realworld problem than the one we're discussing, so naturally, you keep coming up with the wrong answer.
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Edited by Diploid (03/03/06 05:40 PM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361747  03/03/06 02:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: It assumes, that if half a human has 8 apples, a whole human will have 16. It states, that the other half has 8 apples, too, what is certain for math, but not certain in reality. That is, where the divergence comes from.
Bullshit. You take a mathematic equation, pertinent only to the equation itself, then you name some other situation, and claim that math does not reflect reality simply because it doesn't represent the situation it was never created to represent.
Five plus five equals ten. For you to go on to say that you don't have two groups of five doesn't negate the truth that five plus five equals ten. Your inability to grasp this is baffling.
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Bullshit, too. If I follow the simple question "what if I share a fixed amount of apples to persons or parts of them, how much apples per person woul I get ?" by the mathematical correct equation x/y=z, then I will get a fictious result of it, if y will get below 1, what is not nescessary true to reality, it also conquers it, as I have a fixed amount of apples. Even with the values above 1 the methematical equation only shows an equalshared solution, what is not represantive of reality at all. Simply like that, math doesn't represent reality not only not for human interpretation, also in some cases it actually contradicts it. Grasp this !

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361924  03/03/06 03:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I'm so very upset that I read all of this.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5362399  03/03/06 05:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


sweet cowieman, only because I also looked a bit deeper into mathematics, I am able to percieve these problems, tranformed back to simple formulas contradicting reality

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5362408  03/03/06 05:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


diplo, it was not me changing the frame of reference, math itself was doing this. I wanted to know something about a share of 8 apples and suddenly math proposed 16 ones

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5362810  03/03/06 08:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


it was not me
Yes it was.
You started out talking about diving 8 apples among *** ONE *** halfperson, and after you've concluded that the single halfperson gets 8 apples, you suddenly change the story and start talking about *** TWO *** halfpersons.
If you change the thing you're talking about in the calculation after you've finished calculating, then of course you will get the wrong answer.
You can't calculate your bank balance in Mexican pesos, then expect to have that same number of dollars available to spend.
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: It is easy to dismiss math as not having any value when one does not understand what math is (or its magnificent ability to represent reality), which is necessary in order to find the value within it.
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diplo, fire: If I speak of a fixed number of apples to share, math cares shit about and conjures something out of nothing, that is reality, so use that words on yourself fireworks. I am sorry that you can not see that mathematical flux in opposition to reality. So we have to cease discussion here.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5363726  03/04/06 03:43 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: diplo, fire: If I speak of a fixed number of apples to share, math cares shit about and conjures something out of nothing, that is reality, so use that words on yourself fireworks.
On the contrary, your misuse of math produces the results you state do not reflect reality.
The fact remains that math is a language, no different than English or German, and you use math to represent reality. If you have a fixed number of apples and distribute them amongst individuals or halves of individuals, one uses math, as a language, to represent the operation you are performing.
You can't take that equation, multiply the numbers by 1000, and then accuse math of not representing reality because it says there are 8000 more apples than what you actually have.
If you start with an equation and perform more operations to it, then you have changed the situation it is representing.
If you cannot see how this is true, then I would advise you do not use math, as it will get you into a lot of trouble in the situations you engage in within reality. When the government claims you owe $8 in taxes, due to the fact that you have $80, and they demand 10% of your money as taxes, then you don't divide the amount of money you have by two and state that their math doesn't represent the reality of the matter. Later, when you are in prison for tax evasion...
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Hello, is that so hard to see ? I used that example to state, that reality will not alway represent math. Of course one can find other formuas, so that math can represent reality. but reality cares shit about math.
Again: My fixed starting point are 8 apples. I want to see how I can share these apples, so I use the equation x/y=z. It all is good and stays in reality, as long y >= 1. It starts to leave reality if y < 1.
I want to see who is in prsion, man. It will be you who will run around asking "where are the remaining 8 apples, math says they must be here !"
I don't need a math check, but perhaps someone needs a reality check ? But I suppose to leave hostilities and finally stop insulting me personally and find the propper interpretations
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 04:10 AM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5363764  03/04/06 04:47 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Hello, is that so hard to see ? I used that example to state, that reality will not alway represent math. Of course one can find other formuas, so that math can represent reality. but reality cares shit about math.
Math is an aspect of reality, first and foremost, as much as we are.
Our reality that we experience is a representation of reality that our senses and perceptions have developed. Our representation of reality changes as reality changes. Math's representations of reality change as reality changes.
Our representations of reality that we experience as reality and our subsequent math's representations of reality are extensions of reality.
Quote:
Again: My fixed starting point are 8 apples. I want to see how I can share these apples, so I use the equation x/y=z. It all is good and stays in reality, as long y >= 1. It starts to leave reality if y < 1.
Not really, as far as I can see.
Quote:
I want to see who is in prsion, man. It will be you who will run around asking "where are the remaining 8 apples, math says they must be here !"
I can't make sense of this statement.
Quote:
I don't need a math check, but perhaps someone needs a reality check ? But I suppose to leave hostilities and finally stop insulting me personally and find the propper interpretations
You have been insulted personally? Is being questioned personally insulting?
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Again: My fixed starting point are 8 apples. I want to see how I can share these apples, so I use the equation x/y=z. It all is good and stays in reality, as long y >= 1. It starts to leave reality if y < 1.  Not really, as far as I can see. Look closer (hint:fixed starting point)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5364073  03/04/06 09:55 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Again: My fixed starting point
Again, you are using math incorrectly. Setting y equal to 1/2 DOES NOT represent dividing into half of a person. *** DOES NOT ***
You have three people here telling in you this. Why do you keep insisting that 2 + 2 = 5, then wonder why that doesn't seem to match reality?
Blue, c'mon, how can you not see this? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were pulling my leg.
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5364095  03/04/06 10:08 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Why do you keep insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 You know I never did that and I never intended that. I strictly follow the mathematical laws (at least within this thread, brcause it's essential here). I farly already took the pepper out of it I really wonder, why nobody else sees this fallacity, where math crosses the borders of our reality. I see the law and the correctness of the mathematical equation, but really, it flips interpretation, or context of reality, if y wents under 1. Perhaps everybody else doesn't see that as important, or their minds try to fill in the mathematical statement with different interpretations, I don't know. I know that math, in this case, which was only a little example, leaves the real plane of the pregiven and starts to go into fiction and assumptions. Perhaps, that is a mathematical joke, I don't know
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 10:23 AM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5364116  03/04/06 10:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I really wonder, why nobody else sees this fallacity, where math crosses the borders of our reality.
Because there is no fallacy. There is only a mistake on your part.
it flips interpretation, or context of reality, if y wents under 1
No, it does not. You are in error. Your ego is refusing to accept this.
If you represent y as less than one, you are representing a different problem than the one we're discussing. You have to set up the equation to correctly represent the realworld or the answer will not represent the real world.
You've told me in another thread that you know very little about math, yet here you are disputing three people who've studied math and who are telling you that you've made a mistake. What's up with that?
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Edited by Diploid (03/04/06 10:25 AM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5364148  03/04/06 10:31 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


please recite me correctly. I said, I know little about math if it wents into quantum space or goes near lightspeed phenomenas. I studied two semesters of math, too and did my 'Alevel' (entrance test for univerity) for example in maths and biology. I love analysis and infinitesimal calculus, painting graphes and speculating about them seeing only the pure formula. The equation correctly says how many apples I will get out or need, if I want to share something. Even with y<1 it is correct in a mathematical way, as it say, that one person has 16 apples, if half one person has 8. BUT in real life, this is purely an assumtion. It is not stated that the whole man, or whatever it is what gets whole, really will get the correct amount of the parts. That is the difference, which is stated in the correct laws of math, which won't nescessarily represent reality if you loose regards of reality and orientate too much on the mathematical laws. That is only an example. Perhaps, that's more of a mind game, but that is why it fits so good into philosophy
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/04/06 10:39 AM)

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5364170  03/04/06 10:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I said, I know little about math if it wents into quantum space or goes near lightspeed phenomenas.
Actually, Blue, not to beat up on you, but as I recall, you were having trouble with the concept of a square root. This is 5th grade where I went to school.
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5364182  03/04/06 10:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I dont think that I have troubles with square roots, we were discussing light speed and black holes at this time. You must confuse there something, because I also learned calculating with complex numbers, which, as you surely know, calculate with roots out of negatives.

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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5364214  03/04/06 10:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Hey a long math thread cool. This peaks my interest, as I am studying math all weekend for my midterm on tue. Im surprised this hasnt surfaced yet (maybe it has)
.9999... = 1
Thats one that math noobs never accept (neither did I when I was a math noob). Its a classic for internet forum arguments.

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5364224  03/04/06 11:00 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Alright Blue, I give up.
Meanwhile, I'll think of you every time I fly an airplane, drive over a bridge, or use a computer designed with math which doesn't correctly represent the real world.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

DieCommie
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5364235  03/04/06 11:02 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Once some idiot at my job told me there was a great dissconnect between multiplication and addition. This sparked my interest, so I asked him and he proceded to tell me the missing dollar story I never could convince him there was no missing dollar.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5364252  03/04/06 11:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


diplo, hehe, yes, hope that the airplane won't come into a situation, which is not preprogrammed in its avionics, and the computer will use linear mathematics to manage the problem

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5371052  03/06/06 02:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


cunundrum: If you have 8 apples and ask math how many people you will need, that the apples won't satisfy them ? It's answer is: Less than one !

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5374665  03/07/06 03:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I cant believe you are still bringing this up. I basically view you as the mental equivalent of a child.

MushmanTheManic
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5374669  03/07/06 03:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 



BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5374908  03/07/06 04:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Still not gotten it ?!

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5374933  03/07/06 04:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I thought you understood what apples/human meant? Didnt you claim that you were in error earlier? You are trying to give half a person 8 apples, and you are claiming he gets 16. You are treating half a person as a singular entity, so the units are apples/(half human). This would still give you 8 since there is only ONE HALF PERSON.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5375043  03/07/06 05:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Yes. I did not see the mathematical answer, because it is in a different context than my question I did not see, that math says, if you give 8 apples to half a person, one whole person will get 16. But nevertheless, that IS where math leaves reality, definitively I would like to explore that fact a little bit more, because it really can get to a problem in some securityrelevant systems, like avionics. If some not preprogrammed environmental or occasional exception will get you in a situation, where 'linear' maths 'goes wild', your flight computer will perhaps say, you will need 16 tons of fuel, but you have only 8 on board And that would be only some harmless case.

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5375423  03/07/06 06:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Yea all those times when the plane has half a tank on board... But please explore whatever you wish. Take a 'real analysis' class, it will answer a lot of your questions. Then try your hand at a 'complex analysis' class, be prepared to never trust math again though.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5377004  03/08/06 09:36 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Wrote my A grade in analysis, linear algebra, statistics and infinitisimals (17 years ago ). Learned complex numbers as well. Studied 2 semesters of informatics with second course math (at university)... I send you a copy of my certificates, if you wish. be prepared to never trust math again though So we are finally on the same page, even these phenomenas start to happen much earlier
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/08/06 09:45 AM)

DieCommie
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5378378  03/08/06 05:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said:I send you a copy of my certificates, if you wish.
What do you mean by certificate? A degree? Post them Id like to see.

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: DieCommie]
#5378745  03/08/06 07:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Ha so you took some quarters of calculus? Real and Complex analysis are much much different than a basic calculus course. You can phrase it as impressive sounding as you want with words like 'infinitisimals' I know what youve studied. And what kind of linear algebra class, an intro to linear algebra lower division class?

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5380500  03/09/06 08:35 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


DieCommie:only possibly to thecow and only private.
Man, that was over 17 years ago. Quarters of calculus ? I think the linear algebra was about matrixcalculus with vectors. You may remember that I am from Germany, so my grades are a bit different than yours and the school system also is a bit different, also I often am lazy with the english language, perhaps that is where your assumtions stem from ?? I simply shortened 'infinitesimal calculus' into 'infinitesimals'...
So, kid, even if it does nothing to the thread: You say, you know what I have studied ? With every of your post I doubt you more. What do you have learned about math, if you know this sooooo good ?
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/09/06 08:45 AM)

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5380982  03/09/06 11:44 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Well Ive taken and am still taking math classes. So far Ive taken about 3 years of math classes on and off, some from the math department, some from the physics department, and some from the electrical engineering department. Im not hear to all over this thread, as Im still an undergrad and thus dont feel Im very knowledgeable about math, but I at least know division. This is why I cant imagine youve taken anything more than a basic calculus class.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5381022  03/09/06 11:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Then you did not understand, why I took this example. Just because it is so simple and if you will follow its logic, you will come to astonishing results. Perhaps it is not legitime to use a denominator smaller than 1 in this example of context, because it blows up the presettings and wanders off into fantastic assumptions ? Ok ok, I will be quiet now (and perhaps think of another example)
[edit to the hard boiled ones: Interestingly this example gets right again if the denominator becomes zero. Then it says, that it can not assume how many apples one human has, if I have no example of a human with my apples here {Oops, isn't that, what the original poster did want to know almost 3 years ago ?} ]
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/09/06 01:56 PM)

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5381064  03/09/06 12:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I understand why you thought it didnt work, and I also understand your error. But please think of another example.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5381511  03/09/06 02:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Now, we'll take the wild ride Interestingly this example gets right again if the denominator becomes zero. Then it says, that it can not assume how many apples one human has, if I have no example of a human with my apples here {Oops, isn't that, what the original poster did want to know almost 3 years ago ?} And youwanna know why this example gets right with a denominator being zero ? It's because if someone will find an apple with an atom of a human on it, he would have to assume, that the earth is covered with at least 3000 meters of apples....per human, of course Now, someone wanna follow me into the negatives humans to apples reality ? (sorry, couldn't resist)
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/09/06 02:15 PM)

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5381599  03/09/06 02:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Wait so your new example, is that you just reduce the fraction. How is that new?

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5381655  03/09/06 02:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


I am sorry, I am still with the old example. The original starter of this thread (wherever he is now ) has brought up this example. So I used my best shit now, to make it clear, how x/0 is real in reality
(For considerations about a new example, you may also relay to my not answered thread 1 + 1 = much more here )

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5381674  03/09/06 02:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


And what does that thread say that is of any importance to this topic. Play with your metaphysics, leave the science to the adults.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5381757  03/09/06 03:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Leave the kids their forms and get the adults to exploration.

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5381822  03/09/06 03:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


And what exactly has the metaphysics community explored? My side has all of technology, your side has what?

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5381881  03/09/06 03:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Light sharing on knowledge for the better usage of (mathematical) concepts in an existence and realitycomforming way ?!

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5381884  03/09/06 03:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


What

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5381886  03/09/06 03:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


that

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5382015  03/09/06 04:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Explain that a bit more man. Also make me some tacos, otherwise Im going to have to buy some, and that my friend, would be a hassle.

fireworks_god
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5384744  03/10/06 09:01 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Light sharing on knowledge for the better usage of (mathematical) concepts in an existence and realitycomforming way ?!
Mathematical concepts actually have to be based in math.
It just seems to be necessary in order for it to be a concept that is mathematical.
Peace.
 If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you

