
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole


Ooops, my bad. See edit. Only ONE question allowed.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353983  03/01/06 05:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/01/06 05:51 PM)

Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole


That reduces to simply asking which door leads to certain death. It doesn't resolve the ambiguity.
And jiggy, yes, there is an answer.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5354003  03/01/06 05:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


I noticed.

MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587


Ask one of the robots: "If I asked the other robot, would he tell me this door leads to certian death?"
If the robot anwsers "No", then open that door. If the robot anwsers "Yes", then walk through the other one.

Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole


DING DING DING!
Mushman wins the spiked brownies.
You guys are too smart around here...
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5354029  03/01/06 06:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Yipee!

it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch


Quote:
Diploid said: You're sealed in a room with two doors. One door leads to your certain death, the other to freedom.
In front of the two doors are two robots who know which door will kill you and which will set you free. One robot ALWAYS tells the truth, the other ALWAYS lies.
* You're allowed to ask one robot one question.
What question would you ask to determine which door to go through?
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Ask one of the robots: "If I asked the other robot, would he tell me this door leads to certian death?"
If the robot anwsers "No", then open that door. If the robot anwsers "Yes", then walk through the other one.
Wow, it took me 10 mins to wrap my mind around this.

Kaleidoscope
Voodoo Child
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 674
Loc: the 28th dimension
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months


Math is fun to think about in terms of computers and brains...both definable by a discrete mathematical system...One is known, the other is not. Both are similar, yet both are very different. The brain runs on algorithms and has an "OS," just like a computer. It has it's own assembly language (i.e. neurotransmitters) to control datapath and memory. On it's most basic level, the brain is a binary machine, meaning, you should be able to, with the right technology decompile the software of the brain and figure out what makes us tick. I already am certain of one thing, the algorithms of the brain are chaotic systems...
 Purple haze, all in my brain, lately things just don't seem the same. Actin' funny but I don't know why, 'scuse me while I kiss the sky.

BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 year, 3 days

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5356714  03/02/06 10:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? To stay with the apples: 8 people, each gets one, 4 people each gets 2, 2 people each gets 4, 1 person gets 8 and half a person gets 16. Has he to share them with his imaginable other half, so he gets invisible apples ? In which way does this describe reality ? Does it mean, that if you leave the space of the natural numbers, the laws go crazy with reality ? Does it say "Oh, you bad boy, you have halved a person, that is not right here, so you have to half the apples too, so that every new part gets equal amounts. So you get 16 parts of apples." The whole referencesystem changed and went crazy with that step and that describes reality ? Where is the error, at least you can divide 8 apples to 16 persons without problems... ?!
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/02/06 11:17 AM)

Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5359342  03/02/06 10:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? ... it mean, that if you leave the space of the natural numbers, the laws go crazy with reality ?
No. It means you have represented the reality problem incorrectly in the equation.
What you've incorrectly represented is more akin to dividing the 8 Apples among two baskets that can each hold only halfapples but never entire whole apples. Since the baskets will not accept whole apples, you have to cut the 8 into 16 halves, then divide the 16 among the 2 baskets. But that's not the problem presented, and your inadvertent change of the problem is what leads to your odd result.
To avoid this confusion, drop English and switch to the precision, abstract language used by logicians. Instead of Apples and Halfpeople, think objects A and H.
You have 8 of object A (the Apples) and 2 of object H (the Halfpeople).
8 of A divided among 2 of H results in 4 of A for each H. <<< Correct Answer
When you've completed the computation, substitute back the realworld words (Apples and Halfpeople) for the abstract A and H, and you'll always get the right answer.
Note that if you now join the two Halfpeople into one whole person, you'll still have the correct answer in that the nowwhole person will end up with all 8 apples.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 year, 3 days

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5360624  03/03/06 06:12 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


But if there is only one halfperson, why does he get 16 apples (if I follow the mathematical row) ? Why x/y=z, the z gets bigger than the x if y goes below 1 ? Give me one example in nature and reality, so I can comprehend that please. That ever was weird to me
edit: It somehow shows, if you want to half or third the apples, how many pieces you will get out in total, but where is the link to the human  I wanted to half them ? Where are we leaving/changing the frame of refernce ? Why does half a human only can get halfapple units ??
TheCow:Perhaps there we can see, that math can represent reality, but reality not nescessarily has to follow math
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/03/06 06:29 AM)

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361320  03/03/06 01:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Ha this is remarkable. You have 8 apples, 8 humans. 8/8 = 1 apples/human.
If you have 1/2 of a human, than 8 apples / (1/2) of a human, gives you 16 apples/human. Oh but theres more apples you cry! If you are giving a 1/2 of a person 8 apples, then of course a whole human will get 16! I cant believe this discussion has been going on for so long.
You are for some reason defining a half of a person as a whole person at the end. You are saying look this half of a person is getting 16 apples. NO. It is apples/human. So a whole human, 2 halves of a human will get 16 apples.

fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361366  03/03/06 02:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


It is easy to dismiss math as not having any value when one does not understand what math is (or its magnificent ability to represent reality), which is necessary in order to find the value within it.
Peace.
 If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 year, 3 days

Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: fireworks_god]
#5361415  03/03/06 02:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Perhaps some have to understand reality a bit better to see, where mathematics cracks up with it ?
If you are giving a 1/2 of a person 8 apples, then of course a whole human will get 16! I cant believe this discussion has been going on for so long. Because math says here if a whole man gets 8 apples, half a man gets 16, as you see, the opposite of what you say.
I only have 8 apples to share ! That is where math conjures up more apples than I have under certain circumstances. Why are my 8 apples enough for any number of people greater or equal than one, but are not enough if I start to part the human ? I don't ask how much fictional apples a whole human will get, I ask, how much apples half a human will get. Where and why does math leave reality ?

TheCow
Stranger
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361469  03/03/06 02:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Man, alright let me get back to 5th grade math here.
1/2 of a human isnt getting 16 apples. The units are apples/human. This mean the number of apples per 1 human. You are defining one human as a singular entity, not a half a human. Now if you say 8 apples / (1/2) human, than you are saying 16 apples/human. This is ONE human, not 1/2 of a human. Each half of a human gets 8 apples. There is no magical extra apples.
Ill explain it in even more dumbed down terms. If you cut someone in half. Give that half 8 apples. Which is what you are saying, than that half will have 8 apples. If you keep the same relationship, than if you add that half of a human to the other half, creating ONE human again, than that ONE human will have 16 apples.
To state it differently. 8 apples / 2 humans. Is 4 apples per human. Right? Every WHOLE human gets 4 apples ok? If you have one human, 8/1 is 8 apples for every ONE human. If you have 1/2 of a human, every WHOLE human gets 16 apples because each half of him gets 8. So there is no creating of extra apples, as every half still gets the maximum amount of apples, YOU are multiplying the answer by 2 because you are saying apples per ONE HUMAN. Sorry if that sounds irate, but honestly man, use some reasoning.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5361517  03/03/06 03:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


That was a nice explanation, thank you very much (really) ! And now I see, where math leaves reality: It is so overexact, that it implies, that if I give 8 apples to half a human, a whole human must have 16 apples. It doesn't consider, that there are perhaps only 8 apples, or the other half won't get any apples, so it wents into pure fiction and changes MY question about the probelm into its own answer But isn't it somehow a crazy answer: If you share 8 apples to half a human, each human gets 16 ? Of course I agree that it follows mathematical logic, but it is hard to reason in human terms for that.
Thank you for clearing that up, that approves that math not nescessarily has to do something with reality or the perception of it

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361529  03/03/06 03:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Ha alright. Fine whatever Im not going to argue with a man who has literally 0 grasp on common sense. Do you even understand what division is? Do you have any grasp at all on reality in any sense of the word I have to wonder. You have 8 apples total, hey guess what, you need more apples man. You cant feed the world with 8 apples, if you want to feed more than half of a person give the man 16 apples, hey you only have 8? Thats fine, give him 8 apples and half of him will be fed. Edit(2nd): Alright whatever, I dont need to try and explain it further.
Edited by TheCow (03/03/06 03:20 PM)

fireworks_god
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361546  03/03/06 03:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Why then 8 / .5 = 16 ? To stay with the apples: 8 people, each gets one, 4 people each gets 2, 2 people each gets 4, 1 person gets 8 and half a person gets 16.
A half of a person does not get 16. You, apparently, do not know how to accurately perform your equation, " 8 / .5 = 16".
First off, you cannot have a fraction such as " 8 / .5 ", as " .5 " itself IS(!!!!!!!!) a fraction itself! " .5 " is an alternate representation of the fraction " 1 / 2 ". Are you with me so far? You cannot represent " 8 / 1 / 2 " as a fraction, it does not comply with the notation one is using.
Just as you cannot solve " 1a + 5 = 3b " without cancelling out your unlike terms, you cannot perform " 8 / .5 " without doing so.
What can one do? Why, one can move the decimal.
One would have to move the decimal in " .5 " one slot to the right, in order to transform it into a whole number. Thus, one must apply the same operation to the other side of the equation, and move the decimal point in " 8 " (which, even though it is not visible, is right behind the number eight ).
That would give you what fraction?
" 80 / 5 ".
Well, that's great, but we aren't finished yet. One has to reduce one's numbers to the point at which they will no longer reduce down further. How many fives are in eighty? We could divide both sides by " 5 " (remember, one simply must perform the same operation on both sides of the equation ), now couldn't we?
What is 80 divided by 5? 16. That gives one the fraction 16/1. Each half of a human gets 16 apples. The ratio " 16 / 1 " is the same ratio that you initially described, " 8 / .5"; we have simply translated it into a different form in order to correctly represent it as a fraction.
Obviously, if every half ( as in, .5, 1/2, etc.) of a human receives 8 apples, then if you multiply the ratio by 2, (which would look like this: " 8 x 2 / .5 x 2", of course ), you would result with " 16 / 1 ".
To put it into English, A half of a person receives 8 apples. Two halves of a person receives 16 apples.
You are stating that you are only handing out eight apples to one halfhuman, and that is all of the apples there are. Obviously, then, one cannot hand 8 more apples to another person. Obviously, relative to the specific example of handing 8 apples to half of a person, another half person never enters the example.
It is as though you are taking something from math and trying to say it is doing something that it isn't.
Peace.
 If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

fireworks_god
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5361557  03/03/06 03:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) 


Quote:
BlueCoyote said: And now I see, where math leaves reality: It is so overexact, that it implies, that if I give 8 apples to half a human, a whole human must have 16 apples. It doesn't consider, that there are perhaps only 8 apples, or the other half won't get any apples, so it wents into pure fiction and changes MY question about the probelm into its own answer
Math isn't relevant to how many fucking apples you have. One doesn't attempt to state that mathematics says " 2 + 2 = 4", but I only have two spoons on my table, so math says I add two more spoons and then have four, when I only have two spoons, so I can't add two more.
Where is the reason in such a statement? I ask you, where? Where?
Peace.
 If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
