
whiterasta
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1847753  08/25/03 08:18 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


Query? zero and infinity are indivisible(half an infinity is still an infinity) would not the equation 0=infinity be true? and if infinity is all encompassing then also infinity =1 as there can only be one infinty therefore 0=1 which then becomes the expression of reality from potential.The equation infinity=1 is acurate as all "things" are merely subunits of the greater set called infinity therefore not discrete.This eliminates the paradox of a divided infinity.So would not the only indivisble quantities be equivilant? or opposite? Also if 0=1 then 1=0=1 is also true as infinity also encompasses negativity.This gives rise to 1=1 which is true as 1 is the reflective equivilant of 1.So if infinity=1or 1 and 0 then we gain the quantum refresh rate of the universe,a binary system,in which 1 and1 are interchangable values arising from 0,which is the potential space from which reality arises.In other words the universe is a endless expression of the progresion of 1=0=1 at an extremevibratory rate.Given this theory the only true integers are 0and 1 all other integers are in fact fractions of the one(infinty)and since infinty cannot be divided they in effect do not exist except as convienience to explain many of the lesser events within the boundaries of reality. Mathematics are finite and usefull for understanding the finite however they crumble upon the interjection of the infinite.Chaos theory attempts to cloak some of the workings of the infinite in a finite mathematical robe however,many of the flaws of the theory are due to inappropriate zeros and infinitudes appearing in equations.Once it is realized that 0 and infinty are the equation then work can begin understanding how 0and Infinity are linked in our expression of reality. WR
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Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
#1847888  08/25/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


The equality sign is normally used to signify that its left and right operands denote the same thing when they are evaluated. You are using it to signify the equivalence of certain properties of the left and operands. This is not standard usage. The standard way to express that zero and infinity both have the property of indivisibility would be to say f(0) & f(infinity), where f(x) symbolizes the statement that x is indivisible. Or you could say f(0) = f(infinity), which says that both 0 and infinity have the same indivisibility property, but it doesn't say if that property is true or false.
I agree with you that the introduction of infinity tends to make things crumble. Infinity is really just a synonym for openendedness, and it's in the nature of openendedness that any attempt to capture all its properties will fail.

Seuss
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
#1848037  08/25/03 10:59 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


> zero and infinity are indivisible(half an infinity is still an infinity) would not the equation 0=infinity be true?
It is a common mistake to think of infinity as a number. Infinity is concept, not a number in the real number system. This is from the definition of what a real number is. You can append the element infinity (or perhaps two elements, infinity and infinity) to the set of real numbers, but then your set of numbers is no longer the set of real numbers, but something else.
When treated as a number, there are many cases where expressions with infinity are indeterminate. For example:
infinity + (infinity) (infinity) + infinity infinity  infinity (infinity)  (infinity) 0 * infinity infinity * 0 0 * (infinity) (infinity) * 0 infinity / infinity infinity / (infinity) (infinity) / infinity (infinity) / (infinity) infinity / 0 = infinity (infinity) / 0 = infinity
Each of these expressions can have a large range of different values, depending on exactly where the "infinity" parts came from.
As a result, the system you construct by adding infinity to the set of real numbers is no longer closed under addition,subtraction, multiplication, or division.
When you equate 0=infinity, you are comparing apples and oranges. The rules used for common arithmetic no longer hold true, thus the apparent conflict that you pointed out...
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whiterasta
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Seuss]
#1848168  08/25/03 11:49 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


Isn't 0 by definition all that is not?Does 0 have a mathematical definition or is it also an open ended "infinity" of nothing?We obviously live somewhere in a state between the open infinite and the infinite nothing.This is whence my statement of mathematics being confined to the finite,a tool to describe the state between two infinitudes.In mathematics one is either working with fractions of the infinitude or additions to an infinite nothing.Pragmatic and practical but not perhaps representative of actuality. Just some philosophical meanderings,but they still occupy much mental RAM from time to time. WR.
 To old for this place

Rhizoid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: whiterasta]
#1848305  08/25/03 12:45 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


The mathematical definition of zero is the number which when added to any number gives the same number: 0 + x = x, for any number x.
Zero is a special case of the socalled identity element in group theory. In any mathematical group, there is an operator function that maps two group members to another group member. And one of the group members is called the "identity element" because when combined with another group member via the operator function, the result is identical with that other group member.
In the group of natural numbers with the operator function being arithmetic addition, the identity element is the number zero. And zero is a bonafide number. Without zero, there is no identity element and consequently no mathematical group. Infinity on the other hand is not a number, unless you change the definition of number just to incorporate infinity. But doing that will only capture one particular aspect of openendedness. Sooner or later, other aspects will be found that weren't captured by such a definition.

Deiymiyan
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Rhizoid]
#1848451  08/25/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


Let's take a function like F(x)= 1/x When graphed on an xy plane, the line becomes separated @ x=0 where the limits become +/ infinity depending upon which direction you go... I've always wondered... what the +/ aspects of infinity relative to the 2D plane meant... Would that, in any way, be like overlapping [or coming close to] over to a 3D plane relative to the 2D? I mean, any piece of a 3D plane would be kind of like an infinate point +x relative to a 2D plane... 3D is "out of bounds" to 2D... Would a theoretical point "+infinity" on a 2D plane be like its boundary near 3D; and "infinity" be like the boundary approaching 1D? Basically what I'm asking is, in relation to which dimension we are discussing, can infinity +/ be that particular dimension's boundaries relative to its neighbours? Then, from a vantage point synonymous to 1D, the concept of all and nothing, relative to it, would seem to kind of make sense. What do you guys think? [*edit Or am I just "out to lunch" on this?]
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

Seuss
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1848965  08/25/03 04:04 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


> What do you guys think?
I think I need to go home and smoke some before what you ask makes sense...
If a being lived in a 2d world (picture a dot on a sheet of paper) and a 3dworld object passed through the 2d world, what would the 2d observer see? In our paper example, if a pencil was pushed through the paper, the 2d observer would see a point that comes out of nowhere, grows into a line or curve (regardless of the direction it is observed from), and then disappears into nothing again.
Does this tie in to what you are asking?
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Deiymiyan
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Seuss]
#1849228  08/25/03 05:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) 


"If a being lived in a 2d world (picture a dot on a sheet of paper) and a 3dworld object passed through the 2d world, what would the 2d observer see?" 
If a being [as a dot] on a 2D plane existed, wouldn't that make the being of 1D magnitude?
Maybe it an illustration would make more sense...
Picture a clear 3D cube who's boundaries are clearly visible [ie the area of the cube].
Now, within the cube, draw a 2D plane; on this plane, draw a dot.
You now have, in front of you a 3D shape, within it a 2D plane and on it, a 1D dot.
The 2D plane with respect to the dot is the dot's magnitude [it's relative finite size, as compared to the plane] + a [a, being the remaining size {area} of the plane]...
The entire magnitude of the dot, relative to itself, would be infinity [where, infinity, as I've learned throughout my studies in High School, is nothing more than a very large number... so, in fact, finite then]... In essence, the dot's boundary.
The 2D plane goes beyond the bounds of the dot... but INCLUDES the dot.
Now relative to the 3D space, the volume includes the total area of the plane + the remaining volume.
Taking it from the perspective of the 2D plane, the 3D cube is the boundaries of 2D, which are already infinately larger than the boundaries of the 1D dot, + v let's say [v=volume of the cube].
Sizewise now, the cube is all around the plane which is all around the dot.
You can take a section of the 3D space and represent it on the plane, but you only get the tip of the iceburg, so to speak. So this section seen on the 2D plane is a small piece of a larger dimensionnal body.
You can't see the full representation of the next higher dimension... only a "snippet" of it.
Realtive to the dot, the cube is very much infinately larger.
I hope I used the right descriptive words here.
So going back to the initial post I made... Could +/ infinity represent the outermost boundary of a particular Dimension?
 Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..

fireworks_god
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#5337880  02/25/06 12:31 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Bump.
And who says math can't represent reality?
Peace.
 If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Deiymiyan]
#5350727  02/28/06 07:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


What about division by zero... Does that have any significance yet?
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 4 people, how many apples does each person get. Answer 2 per person.
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 2 people, how many apples does each person get. Answer 4 per person.
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 1 person, how many apples does each person get. Answer: the one guy gets all 8.
If you are given 8 apples to divide among 0 people, how many apples does each person get. Uh... but there aren't any people.
This is why you can't divide by 0. It is a meaningless operation.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5350751  02/28/06 07:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Actually its anything but a meaningless equation. It is actually very useful in high mathematics, with poles and other things.

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5350788  02/28/06 07:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Division by zero is not allowed even in fields other than the reals.
Division by zero is defined in some fields, the extended complex plane (the Riemann Sphere) for example, where it's defined as complex infinity, but it's still not allowed; only defined.
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (02/28/06 07:52 PM)

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5350874  02/28/06 08:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


I was merely saying its not meaningless it has uses in math, I use it on a weekly basis, some classes on a daily basis.

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: TheCow]
#5352926  03/01/06 09:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


If you cut the last person in two parts, each half will still get 8 full apples. Or does each part get 16 apples ? What ? If you cut a person in any parts, each part will get 8 apples..where do they come from ? The amout of apples increases if you start cutting humans into parts.
math as representation of reality ?

BlueCoyote
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5353557  03/01/06 01:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


I will be honest: Some very complex and deep matters and formulas of math do fit exactly to reality (because they normaly tend to describe it  at least, that is where math came from), while some other, very simple and primary rules of math break every bond, understanding and logic of reality.

TheCow
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5353575  03/01/06 01:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Such as

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5353928  03/01/06 03:28 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


If you cut the last person in two parts, each half will still get 8 full apples.
Nope.
If you divide 8 apples among 2 halfpersons, each halfperson gets 4 apples. The whole person still gets 8.
Simple.
Math is ALWAYS consistent (if incomplete).
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.

Diploid
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353942  03/01/06 03:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Speaking of logic, here's a logic brain twister:
You're sealed in a room with two doors. One door leads to your certain death, the other to freedom.
In front of the two doors are two robots who know which door will kill you and which will set you free. One robot ALWAYS tells the truth, the other ALWAYS lies.
* You're allowed to ask one robot one question.
What question would you ask to determine which door to go through?
 Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, lessintrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (03/01/06 03:57 PM)

MushmanTheManic
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353968  03/01/06 03:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Ask both: "Are you a robot?" Then, ask the one who anwsers "Yes": "Does this door lead to certian death?" If the robot anwsers "Yes" then I open the other door, if the robot anwsers "No", then I open that door.

gettinjiggywithit
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Re: Mathematical Explanation... [Re: Diploid]
#5353973  03/01/06 03:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) 


Ask each one if they are a robot. The lying one will have to lie about what it is saying it's something else. Then, ask the truth telling one which is the door to freedom.
I hope that question has an answer and you plan on sharing it later.
 Ahuwale ka nane huna.

