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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,282
Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law
    #1836699 - 08/21/03 10:58 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law
Pat Henry

(on freerepublic.com)


The following guide will help you plan, prepare, and get ready when Bush martial law threatens your safety and well being. It is divided into two parts. The first part describes the framework for martial law and the second part the actions to take in preparing or the actual declaration of martial law.

INTERESTING FACTS

* Martial law is defined as: military rule or authority imposed on a civilian population when the civil authorities cannot maintain law and order, as in a time of war or during an emergency.

* Hitler turned Germany into a Nazi dictatorship through executive orders.

* Executive Order 10995: All communications media are to be seized by the Federal Government. Radio, TV, newspapers, CB, Ham, telephones, and the internet will be under federal control. Hence, the First Amendment will be suspended indefinitely.

* Executive Order 10997: All electrical power, fuels, and all minerals well be seized by the federal government.

* Executive Order 10998: All food resources, farms and farm equipment will be seized by the government. You will not be allowed to hoard food since this is regulated.

* Executive Order 10999: All modes of transportation will go into government control. Any vehicle can be seized.

* Executive Order 11000: All civilians can be used for work under federal supervision.

* Executive Order 11490: Establishes presidential control over all US citizens, businesses, and churches in time of "emergency."

* Executive Order 12919: Directs various Cabinet officials to be constantly ready to take over virtually all aspects of the US economy during a State of National Emergency at the direction of the president.

* Executive Order 13010: Directs FEMA to take control over all government agencies in time of emergency. FEMA is under control of executive branch of the government.

* Executive Order 12656: "ASSIGNMENT OF EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS RESPONSIBILITIES", "A national emergency is any occurrence, including natural disaster, military attack, technological emergency, or other emergency that seriously degrades or seriously threatens the national security of the United States. Policy for national security emergency preparedness shall be established by the President." This order includes federal takeover of all local law enforcement agencies, wage and price controls, prohibits you from moving assets in or out of the United States, creates a draft, controls all travel in and out of the United States, and much more.

* Martial law can be declared due to natural disasters, Y2k Crisis, Stock Market crash, no electricity, riots, biological attack, .... anything leading to the breakdown of law and order.

SURVIVING MARTIAL LAW

* Prepare before any declaration of marial law by becoming self reliant. You may become subject to a bureaucratic system and be prepared to stay one step ahead of it which is easy to do if you are prepared and in a position to be self reliant. You may also face mob rule, chaos, panic, or a complete breakdown in law and order. Surival situations may be easier to handle in rural areas than urban.

* Avoid areas of marital law. Can be imposed due to natural disasters or man caused events. Important to have a retreat or place in a rural area away from populated areas.

* Create alliances with like minded neighbors or community members that share your views. Team work and numbers may help your situation.

* Become transparent in the sense that you do not draw attention to yourself or your family. For instance, do not tell people that you are storing food just store food. Be prepared to render assistance to neighbors if need be. You never know when you will need them.

* Remain calm! Do not panic.

* Avoid areas of civil unrest if possible. If caught in civil unrest take appropriate action.

* Get informed and stay informed. Understand martial law can be a temporary crisis or an extended one. In extreme cases the shape of a whole nation can change.

* Declaration of martial law means your rights are suspended and it is government by decree. Your constitutional rights may no longer apply. This could mean a state of National Emergency.

* People can be arrested and imprisoned indefinitely without charges.

* Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly can be suspended, and censorship of the media imposed.

* Gun ownership will also come under severe attack during marital law. We could see house to house searches by the military or National Guard looking for guns and seizing any they find along with stored food.

* Take a stand on issues and make a choice that fits your beliefs and the situation. Realize you may have some hard choices to make. Understand you may have to sacrifice your principles on trivial matters or take a hard stand.


he forgot to mention tinfoil. stockpile lots and lots of tinfoil.

They save Hitler's cock.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1836910 - 08/21/03 12:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

In due time...in due time...

After the terrorist attack of 2005....



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXochitl
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Registered: 07/15/03
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837072 - 08/21/03 12:47 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I also thought those freeper creeps supported Bush and the military-industrial complex without question. And, to them, questioning Bush and the neo-conservative regime is "unamerican."


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837096 - 08/21/03 12:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Actually if Bush was going to let another terrorist attack happen it would be before the election. However I don't think Bush will allow another to happen. They blamed the last one on Clinton not taking care of Bin Laden sooner and being "unprepared". If they allow another one to happen, there is no way they could blame it on anyone but themselves.

Let one happen. Stop the rest.

That's key.





--------------------
--------------------------------


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1837114 - 08/21/03 12:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Actually if Bush was going to let another terrorist attack happen it would be before the election. However I don't think Bush will allow another to happen. They blamed the last one on Clinton not taking care of Bin Laden sooner and being "unprepared".  If they allow another one to happen, there is no way they could blame it on anyone but themselves.
 




Thats all true...BUT, after he's been re-elected they can blame it on lack of security...saying "if we had patriot act 2, that wouldn't of happened...".  And it was clear from the delayed air response time, evacuations, etc... that either the current administration had it planned, or were completely and utterly clueless to the attack...none of which have had a negative effect on bushs' ratings. :nut:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837120 - 08/21/03 01:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

How about blaming it on the lunatics that flew the planes into the buildings? :rolleyes:


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837127 - 08/21/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I highly doubt they were the ones who co-ordinated the hyjackings etc... :rolleyes:



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837132 - 08/21/03 01:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
How about blaming it on the lunatics that flew the planes into the buildings? :rolleyes: 



Do I have to speak to you yet again about common sense? Stop it. Stop it now.  If you keep it up the lefties / libbies may try it for themselves.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837136 - 08/21/03 01:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmm very good.

With ideas like that maybe Bush will tap you to take over whatever job becomes vacant next.





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--------------------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837137 - 08/21/03 01:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

shakta writes:

How about blaming it on the lunatics that flew the planes into the buildings?

Dream on. Since none of the hijackers were Americans, they are of course blameless. *sarcasm*

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837138 - 08/21/03 01:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

shakta said:
How about blaming it on the lunatics that flew the planes into the buildings? :rolleyes: 



Do I have to speak to you yet again about common sense? Stop it. Stop it now.  If you keep it up the lefties / libbies may try it for themselves. 




Thanks for adding that to the thread mr. i don't ever say what i think because it could open me up for rebuttle, so i just make little snide comments that annoy people so i can feel better about myself. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837140 - 08/21/03 01:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No way man!  Are you nuts?  :lol:

1. Bush didn't know.
2. If another one happens from a unique perspective or one that couldn't be avoided it isn't his fault either.  You simply can't make a country this size that safe.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Xochitl]
    #1837146 - 08/21/03 01:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hardcore paleo-conservatives on freerepublic bash Bush all day long. Most are against any sort of foreign intervention.

This post was a one-day troll, though.



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Phred]
    #1837148 - 08/21/03 01:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
shakta writes:

How about blaming it on the lunatics that flew the planes into the buildings?

Dream on. Since none of the hijackers were Americans, they are of course blameless. *sarcasm*

pinky




What about..
I highly doubt they were the ones who co-ordinated the hyjackings etc... ?

If you arrest someone for trafficing, does the drug ring go down?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837153 - 08/21/03 01:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:


Thanks for adding that to the thread mr. i don't ever say what i think because it could open me up for rebuttle, so i just make little snide comments that annoy people so i can feel better about myself. :thumbup: 




I want to try that. Is it any fun?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837162 - 08/21/03 01:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Of course they, and their terrorist friends planned it all. Oh sorry, I meant they and their misunderstood freedom fighter friends planned it.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837167 - 08/21/03 01:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
No way man!  Are you nuts?  :lol:

1. Bush didn't know.
2. If another one happens from a unique perspective or one that couldn't be avoided it isn't his fault either.  You simply can't make a country this size that safe. 




Really?  Then explain why a country like Canada, that is considerably larger than the U.S. doesn't suffer from terrorist attacks...we have virtually no defence, and much more area to cover.  I'm guessing it's because we aren't going around pissing off other countries to start with...but that's just my opinion.

p.s...Bush Knew


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/03 01:15 PM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837172 - 08/21/03 01:14 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Oh sorry, I meant they and their misunderstood freedom fighter friends planned it.




Don't worry about terms...its only different because of where your born and your religious affiliaton.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (08/21/03 01:14 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837182 - 08/21/03 01:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I guess noone is jealous of your freedoms up there.

:lol:


 


--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Tides In - Trip With Me



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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837193 - 08/21/03 01:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

it's because we aren't going around pissing off other countries to start with

Bingo!  Johnny show the winner what he's won! :smile:

I know you think Bush knew.  I just don't think so and I haven't seen any evidence that would convinced me that he knew that planes would hit the buildings Sept 11th.  I firmly believe he knew we were at risk as any other idiot did.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1837194 - 08/21/03 01:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I guess noone is jealous of your freedoms up there.

:lol: 



No, it's just that no-one wants those Canookian women.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837199 - 08/21/03 01:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Wasn't that you mom?
:confused:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837202 - 08/21/03 01:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What are you talking about man?

If anyone could give you that hot monkey love it's her!

:lol:


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837215 - 08/21/03 01:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, lets keep the guys family affairs private... :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837218 - 08/21/03 01:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
What are you talking about man?

If anyone could give you that hot monkey love it's her!

:lol: 



But then Rono would be left broken-hearted.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837232 - 08/21/03 01:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"How about blaming it on the lunatics that flew the planes into the buildings? "

There's minds here much more knowledgeable than myself regarding political issues, so I'll ask, what about the failure of interceptor jets to get to the highjakced planes? From what I understand, maybe I'm wrong or misinformed, once a commercial airliner deviates from it's course and an attempt at communication is made for which no response is given, it is assumed to be highjacked. Wasn't there ample time to intercept these planes? Surely such a scenario as what occurred was thoroughly considered by federal security people, it's really pretty obvious that such an attack could be attempted when thinking in terms of potential terrorism, and so it should have come as no surprise regarding the event itself, if not the timing (although I believe that some it has been said that some foreknowledge existed).
I guess what I'm saying is, could the Bush administration hve been involved, not from the perspective of masterminding the highjackings and all that, but in regards to delaying the response in terms of possibly intercepting these planes; not to belittle the people on the planes, they would have died as well, most likel, in such an interception engagement, but avoiding collisions with the towers would have ultimately saved more lives. Any thoughts (other than castrating me)?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837234 - 08/21/03 01:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

She's just one of my ho's...knock yerself out... :smirk:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837239 - 08/21/03 01:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
She's just one of my ho's...knock yerself out... :smirk: 



Damn man, that's real kind of you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837247 - 08/21/03 01:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That's a good point but I don't think we were up to being that responsive. How long was it from when the plane first deviated from its course and the government was informed of it until it actually hit the building?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837251 - 08/21/03 01:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What about every other plane after that?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837254 - 08/21/03 01:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

There was ample time to rally air support..its been discussed here before. In fact there was an article saying they are supposed to automaticaly scramble in a situation like that, but didn't for some reasonl.....

Anyone know where i can buy some penta lawn as welll?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837260 - 08/21/03 01:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That would happen now. Previously, that was not the practice implemented.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837265 - 08/21/03 01:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Incorrect,....that procedure was in place long before 9/11...have a look in google for Payne Stewart..

Payne Stewart

and this was just a small private jet that had lost radio contact, yet fighter jets were scrambled immediately...one would think that a large airliner that wasn't responding to hails would warrant at least the same attention...



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/03 01:47 PM)


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837270 - 08/21/03 01:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"That would happen now. Previously, that was not the practice implemented."

Really? I'd have thougt that such potential terrorism would have been well considered long ago (how could anyone giving thought to potential terrorist targets in the US not come up with that scenario almost immediately?) and some form of appropriate response would have been established long ago. I mean, targeting something obscure could ellude such considerations, but what could be more obvious that planes being highjacked and crashed into the towers?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837272 - 08/21/03 01:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, those are also good points. But I think we just we weren't up to being that responsive. Does that make us culpable? Certainly. It's the extent of culpability that is debatable.

We can also blame the passengers for not standing up for themselves and going to the slaughter like so many sheep. Will that happen again?

Probably not.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837280 - 08/21/03 01:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Passenger had every reason to think that it was a normal hijacking, which usually end with all, or nearly all, passengers surviving.



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837282 - 08/21/03 01:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

CLICK HERE

Quote:

At approximately 8:13, Flight 11 was instructed by air traffic controllers at the FAA's Boston Center, in Nashua, New Hampshire, to climb to 35,000 feet. The plane did not obey the order and its transponder was turned off. Air traffic control manager Glenn Michael said, "we considered it at that time to be a possible hijacking." [AP, 8/12/02, emphasis added] According to FAA regulations, that was the correct decision: "Consider that an aircraft emergency exists ... when ... there is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications with any ... aircraft." [FAA Air Traffic Control Regulations, Chapter 10, Section 2-5 ]






Quote:

If air traffic controllers believed Flight 11 had been hijacked at 8:13, NORAD should have been informed immediately, so military planes could be scrambled to investigate. However, NORAD and the FAA both claimed NORAD was not informed until 8:40 - 27 minutes later.









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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837285 - 08/21/03 01:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"We can also blame the passengers for not standing up for themselves and going to the slaughter like so many sheep. Will that happen again?"

I can't blame the passengers, they didn't know what was going on until it was too late, I'd think, they were probably hoping to come out of it alive.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1837291 - 08/21/03 01:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The pratice of shooting them down was not the norm back then like it likely would be today is what I was talking about. I think we just were not prepared to scramble them fast enough in that case.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837297 - 08/21/03 01:52 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Basically, we were fat dumb and happy.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837307 - 08/21/03 01:53 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Pretty much.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837321 - 08/21/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
Passenger had every reason to think that it was a normal hijacking, which usually end with all, or nearly all, passengers surviving.






>Click here<

Quote:

MI6 warned the American intelligence services about a plot to hijack aircraft and crash them into buildings two years before the September 11 attacks.





I have many more links if you need those to.

>PRIOR KNOWLEDGE ARCHIVE<




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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837322 - 08/21/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
The pratice of shooting them down was not the norm back then like it likely would be today is what I was talking about. I think we just were not prepared to scramble them fast enough in that case.




...I want to know why they were never scrambled in the first place. Let's assume that the first plane 'somehow' hit before anybody knew what was going on. Are you saying that the almighty American airforce is so inept that it couldn't launch at least one single plane to investigate, after discovering there were more instances of planes out of radio contact?


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Edited by Rono (08/21/03 01:59 PM)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837325 - 08/21/03 02:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think we just were not prepared to scramble them fast enough in that case.




Rono just linked you the Payne Stewart story. They were on his ass QUICK.





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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1837328 - 08/21/03 02:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting. MI6 still claims that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger. Do you believe that?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837329 - 08/21/03 02:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed.

If it happens again and the same result occurs that will be completely different. A lot of people like to play the "blame game" but it is pretty obvious to those with sound minds that the persons directly responsible for the attack are the attackers.

There isn't any other sane way to see it.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837337 - 08/21/03 02:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes..it's completely 'insane' to think that your government would lie to you... :rolleyes:


--------------------
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Edited by Rono (08/21/03 02:05 PM)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837349 - 08/21/03 02:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
Interesting. MI6 still claims that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger. Do you believe that?




FIne.


USA Today

Quote:

Some of the clues lie buried in 350,000 pages of documents turned over by the CIA for the hearings:
* Reports discussing the possibility of suicide bombings, plots to fly planes into buildings and strikes against the Pentagon, World Trade Center and other high-profile targets.








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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837359 - 08/21/03 02:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't say that.  There is a big difference in assuming the government lies and believing everything Art Bell tells you.  :lol:


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837361 - 08/21/03 02:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There isn't any other sane way to see it.



Correct.

A vauge warning that someday an event like this might occur, is next to worthless.

Too many flights, too many targets.


--------------------
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837362 - 08/21/03 02:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There isn't any other sane way to see it.





PRIOR KNOWLEDGE ARCHIVE




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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837387 - 08/21/03 02:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is a big difference in assuming the government lies and believing everything Art Bell tells you


Okay fine...so maybe you could comment on why no jets were sent to intercept?....I realize that you are not in command of NORAD or the Air force, so just your opinion will do...

It's already been proven that it IS procedure to do so when radio contact is lost.
It's been proven that Jets can be scrambled in minutes for this same reason.
It's been proven that it has been done in the past...

So I ask the simple question...WHY WEREN'T ANY JETS SCRAMBLED ON 9/11?


--------------------
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Edited by Rono (08/21/03 02:21 PM)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837406 - 08/21/03 02:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

As Pinky said once..."The Silence is Deafening"...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837428 - 08/21/03 02:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

He doesn't appear to be here to answer.

And even if he was, without access to ALL the documents, secret and otherwise, there is no way to answer.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837430 - 08/21/03 02:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"A vauge warning that someday an event like this might occur, is next to worthless.

Too many flights, too many targets"

I really gotta think, though, that while you certainly can't cover every potential target, highjacking planes and flying them into prominent buildings or structures would be pretty high on a list of potential terrorist actions that might be taken against the US. The Twin Towers and any major building in DC would certainly qualify, it's hard to think that provisions were in place in the event of this happeming.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837433 - 08/21/03 02:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
He doesn't appear to be here to answer.

And even if he was, without access to ALL the documents, secret and otherwise, there is no way to answer.




That's why I asked for his OPINION...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837443 - 08/21/03 02:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:


That's why I asked for his OPINION...


Which is why I wrote this FIRST.
"He doesn't appear to be here to answer."


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837445 - 08/21/03 02:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

At any rate, that doesn't prove anything.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837451 - 08/21/03 02:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheHobbit said:
"A vauge warning that someday an event like this might occur, is next to worthless.

Too many flights, too many targets"

I really gotta think, though, that while you certainly can't cover every potential target, highjacking planes and flying them into prominent buildings or structures would be pretty high on a list of potential terrorist actions that might be taken against the US. The Twin Towers and any major building in DC would certainly qualify, it's hard to think that provisions were in place in the event of this happeming.


I think I remember reading that tere are 3500+ flights a day in US airspace.

How many potential targets do you think there are?
Nuke plants, power plants, bridges, sports arenas, cruise ships, airports, and many more including buildings. Which do you protect, which do you leave to fate? It can't be done.

The pilots in this country should have been armed years ago. There would probably have been NO crashes that day.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837452 - 08/21/03 02:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"even if he was, without access to ALL the documents, secret and otherwise, there is no way to answer"

Well, yeah, we'll never know what actually transpired, what thoughts were going through who's mind and all, so we can just speculate, but there must be a chain of command in place for such a situation, right? Does Bush himself even make the call in regards to such a situation, or Rumsfeld, or who, I don't know, just wondering. Just hard to think that we could be caught so completely unprepared, even if there was no reason, intelligence-wise, to think anything was coming. I'd think that at least the more prominent potential terrorist targets, such as the towers and DC buildings along with nuclear power plants, would be have long been covered from a security perspective.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837464 - 08/21/03 02:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Not if no one wants to pay for it. Security comes at a cost other than monetary as well. Freedom, as we are seeing with the likes of the Patriot Act.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837465 - 08/21/03 02:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
At any rate, that doesn't prove anything.




Wrong..it proves that alot of things that should have been done, and that have been done in the past, weren't done.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837470 - 08/21/03 02:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It proves that one small plane was intercepted more quickly one time.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837479 - 08/21/03 02:47 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"How many potential targets do you think there are?
Nuke plants, power plants, bridges, sports arenas, cruise ships, airports, and many more including buildings. Which do you protect, which do you leave to fate? It can't be done.

The pilots in this country should have been armed years ago. There would probably have been NO crashes that day."

There's shitloads of potential targets, no doubt, but I'd think that the more prominent ones would have some degree of security protocol in place in regards to them. Huge buildings, housing thousands of people, and nuclear power plants, the destruction of which would obviously be a big problem, would seem to me to make the most sense from a priority perspective; leaving other potential targets to fate is unfortunate, for sure, but if you have limited resources for such purposes, wouldn't it make sense to establish a sound security program in regards to these at least? I don't see why on flight security hasn't existed either, if not the pilots having guns, as they are kinda busy flying the planes, then an agent flying with every flight.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837492 - 08/21/03 02:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

They aren't covered now for the most part. There are plenty of articles about just how vulnerable we still are. There is little that can be done.

And I was wrong about the number of daily commercial flights....
"Of the 22,000 daily commercial aviation flights, the average number of daily system delays recorded by the FAA from April through August totaled 1290."
Link

Question - How do you cover 22,000 flights?
Answer - Arm the pilots.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837507 - 08/21/03 02:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I don't see why on flight security hasn't existed either, if not the pilots having guns, as they are kinda busy flying the planes, then an agent flying with every flight.



Security has sucked for years because we became complacent. Cheesy doors didn't help. Pilots are the last line of defense and once the cockpit has been breached they and they alone have the potential to do anything. Perhaps you've heard of air marshals. What good are they? Cops are generally fairly easy to pick out of a crowd. What could one or even two have done to stop suicidal hijackers?














--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837527 - 08/21/03 03:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

There is a big difference in assuming the government lies and believing everything Art Bell tells you


Okay fine...so maybe you could comment on why no jets were sent to intercept?....I realize that you are not in command of NORAD or the Air force, so just your opinion will do...

It's already been proven that it IS procedure to do so when radio contact is lost.
It's been proven that Jets can be scrambled in minutes for this same reason.
It's been proven that it has been done in the past...

So I ask the simple question...WHY WEREN'T ANY JETS SCRAMBLED ON 9/11?




Yeah, as was mentioned I wasn't here. I was helping a candidate.

I thought I answered this question before. We weren't prepared to be that responsive. Translate that into, "We fucked up." The same can be said for the passengers. They thought, mistakenly I might add, that the 'government' could solve their problems.

Turns out they couldn't and they can't. Each of us are directly responsible to take care of ourselves as much as possible. There are emergency situations that no one, including ourselves, can prevent.

As luv pointed it we can't protect ourselves completely using the government in that situation.

Also imagine that we could have responded as we should. The end of that scenario would have been the government shooting down the planes before they made contact. Imagine that, drink that in. What response would the citizens have had?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837536 - 08/21/03 03:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"Not if no one wants to pay for it. Security comes at a cost other than monetary as well. Freedom, as we are seeing with the likes of the Patriot Act."

Paying for it financially, what do I know of where the taxes go, maybe the funds do exist for maintaining a greater degree of security in regards to prominent targets, or maybe the military could include such protection within the domian of what they do; some reasonable solution could be found, I'd think.

"Freedom,..." Freedom's a pretty big concept, and how much do we give up for the purpose of safeguarding ourselves? I don't know, but people hold the concept of freedom pretty close to their hearts here, and giving up so much that one's own privacy is significantly compromised probably wouldn't sit too well with most people.

"It proves that one small plane was intercepted more quickly one time."

Come on man, if they could be on that plane, they can respond to others as well.



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1837547 - 08/21/03 03:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

There isn't any other sane way to see it.





PRIOR KNOWLEDGE ARCHIVE







If you are given to such conspiracy theories I must also assume you think Vincent Foster was murdered by Herr Klinton. Or does your propensity for conspiracy only lean in one direction?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837548 - 08/21/03 03:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"Security has sucked for years because we became complacent. Cheesy doors didn't help. Pilots are the last line of defense and once the cockpit has been breached they and they alone have the potential to do anything. Perhaps you've heard of air marshals. What good are they? Cops are generally fairly easy to pick out of a crowd. What could one or even two have done to stop suicidal hijackers?"

I'd have to agree that one air marshall or cop against a group of highjackers wouldn't be good odds - but they shouldn't be able to get on the plane with guns, one hopes, and so a marshall armed with a gun should have an advantage over even several highjackers with ceramic knives.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837550 - 08/21/03 03:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Also imagine that we could have responded as we should. The end of that scenario would have been the government shooting down the planes before they made contact. Imagine that, drink that in. What response would the citizens have had?




Like I said..no-one is saying that the planes should or shouldn't have been shot down. But not ONE single plane was even sent to intercept or investigate...I'd say that goes far beyond a simple "Fuck up".


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837560 - 08/21/03 03:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It's already been proven that it IS procedure to do so when radio contact is lost.
It's been proven that Jets can be scrambled in minutes for this same reason.
It's been proven that it has been done in the past...

So I ask the simple question...WHY WEREN'T ANY JETS SCRAMBLED ON 9/11?

Answer- We weren't prepared to be that responsive

.....,there were plenty of airworthy jets and personnel who could have intercepted, but didn't.......why?

I know the us is pretty incompetant, but i just can't believe they wouldn't investigate or at least send up some jets for a look, after the numerous radio contacts that were lost from the hyjacked planes....especially after the first one crashed......how can you swallow that?

And if so, why are the other measures of security put into place(patriot act, department of homeland security), when if they had responded as they should have, the situation prolly would have been avoided?


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Edited by Azmodeus (08/21/03 03:11 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837562 - 08/21/03 03:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It's pretty obvious that it was a major and complex fuck-up. Who could think otherwise?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837565 - 08/21/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

someone not blinded by patriotism? :laugh:


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837571 - 08/21/03 03:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I could...A fuck-up of that magnitude is beyond comprehension. I think that anyone that doesn't at least 'suspect' Bush knew is fooling themselves.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837576 - 08/21/03 03:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I know the us is pretty incompetant, but i just can't believe they wouldn't investigate or at least send up some jets for a look, after the numerous radio contacts that were lost from the hyjacked planes....especially after the first one crashed......how can you swallow that?




That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary.

Quote:

And if so, why are the other measures of security put into place(patriot act, department of homeland security), when if they had responded as they should have, the situation prolly would have been avoided?




My guess is they want to strip us of the few remaining freedoms we have.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837587 - 08/21/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

" know the us is pretty incompetant, but i just can't believe they wouldn't investigate or at least send up some jets for a look, after the numerous radio contacts that were lost from the hyjacked planes....especially after the first one crashed......how can you swallow that?"

I don't know that it's really a matter of incompetence, it seems more deliberate than that. How does explain a complete breech of response procedures in this situation? Ooops?

"And if so, why are the other measures of security put into place(patriot act, department of homeland security), when if they had responded as they should have, the situation prolly would have been avoided?"

Smells a little funny, but this is where the conspiracy theory starts taking off, of course.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837588 - 08/21/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary.



I have worked in the military, and I can guarantee that the ONLY reason jets weren't scrambled was because they were told not to...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837589 - 08/21/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
That's easy.  I have worked with the government for years.  I know how incompetent they really are.  Believe me, it's scary.




Damn...never thought of that...i guess working for them could lead me to fully accept such icompetance.

you won this round... :mad: :wink:


edit: there is hope!
"I have worked in the military, and I can guarantee that the ONLY reason jets weren't scrambled was because they were told not to... "


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Edited by Azmodeus (08/21/03 03:20 PM)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837604 - 08/21/03 03:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary."

Yes, very scary.

"My guess is they want to strip us of the few remaining freedoms we have."

Yes, that's scary too. But why take out their incompetence on the citizens with the Patriot Act?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837613 - 08/21/03 03:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
I could...A fuck-up of that magnitude is beyond comprehension.  I think that anyone that doesn't at least 'suspect' Bush knew is fooling themselves. 




Yeah, I can see that.  But only if a person were unacquainted with how the government really runs.  The case here is a lot like the major blackout we had recently.  It was panic city.  What did our local officials do?

Nothing.

Were we prepared?

No.

Notice how we were 'promised' by President Bush that this "wasn't a terrorist attack" when days later we still don't know the cause.

That was yet another classic case of the government in action.

Or are you of the opinion that President Bush was "in on that one too"?  :lol: 


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837624 - 08/21/03 03:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary. 



I have worked in the military, and I can guarantee that the ONLY reason jets weren't scrambled was because they were told not to... 




I see. The "military is a well-oiled machine" theory.

Now I wonder where the phrase "snafu" came from? my turn to :rolleyes:

:lol: 


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837638 - 08/21/03 03:36 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Far from it...but from personal experience, a fuck-up of that magnitude is not a plausible explanation...unless of course EVERY single person that is responsible for air defense in the most powerful country in the world, with the highest defense budget is a complete idiot...is that what you're implying?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837663 - 08/21/03 03:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I don't except that proviso. I am simply maintaining that most of the major links in the chain "freaked out" and it resulted in the tragedy.

We weren't prepared. That's all.

But I understand why a person would be highly suspicious of the turn of events.

I didn't know that there was 27 minutes where the guy at the control room knew about the lack of radio contact and seemingly "did nothing". Perhaps he freaked out too. But I am a little suspicious of that.

If this lack of radio contact thing is for real how many times do you think they lose radio contact? It seems to me that would be fairly often. How many times are the military ordered to scramble? None that I am aware of.

For me the bottom line is that EVERY portion of the government is far more incompetent than they would ever want us to know.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837666 - 08/21/03 03:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Let me put this into context using the Payne Stewart incident again if I may...

"According to an Air Force summary, after contact was initially lost, two F-15s from Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., were sent to track the Learjet. The F-15s pulled back and two F-16s in the air from Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., moved in to track the aircraft.
After the Learjet reached the Midwest, the Eglin F-16s pulled off and four F-16s and a midair refueling tanker from the Tulsa National Guard followed it.
Eventually, two F-16s from Fargo, N.D., moved in close to look into the windows to see if the pilot was slumped over and to help clear air space. Officials hoped that the F-16s could provide assistance to anyone on board who might have helped land the plane safely.
The pilots drew close and noticed no structural damage but were unable to see into the Learjet because its windows were frosted over, indicating the temperature inside was well below freezing.
The F-16 pilots said they saw the plane, apparently out of fuel, fall to the ground."

Now let's count how many Jets were scrambled in total for only 1 private jet...10!...(and 1 re-fueling tanker) 10 jets in total were scrambled from various parts of the country in that instance for a private jet that was not responding to radio contact.

Now forward to 9/11...2 jets hit the towers in New York, 1 hits the Pentagon, 1 crash lands in Pennsylvania...now how many jets were scrambled for those? if you guessed 0 you are correct.

I don't know how you can say with a straight face that every airbase in every state involved was incompetent...ESPECIALLY since there is one VERY close to the Pentagon.



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Edited by Rono (08/21/03 03:49 PM)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837679 - 08/21/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Hobbit, would you please stop using that fucking quick reply!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837680 - 08/21/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hey..., how is it the lawn in front of the crash at the pentagon could remain in tact?

http://www.govsux.com/penta-lawn.htm

edit: no comments on responce time from inny, luvs, wingtux, shatka?! You all agree your government is retarded, or conspiratorial fuckheads?


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Edited by Azmodeus (08/21/03 03:52 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837697 - 08/21/03 03:53 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Sure. I can see that.

But still the fact remains that the two incidents are completely unalike in their magnitude. Which is why one induced a level of panic that caused the system to break down and the other didn't.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837698 - 08/21/03 03:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ever fire an anti-tank missile? They're cool.

You can fire them at a tank or building in the middle of a field, and it blows the shit out of the target without fucking up all the grass.

It flies, get this, OVER the grass! By several feet!

If you want, you can skip one across the grass and leave a trail, but then you waste all your kinetic energy and might lose your round altogether.

Bullets work in much the same way, but aren't as fun.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837704 - 08/21/03 03:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'd have to agree that one air marshall or cop against a group of highjackers wouldn't be good odds



Have you flown much?

Picture this.... you are a hijacker, you believe you know which passenger is the air marshal. You get up, walk towards the john, and as you pass him, you pounce on him. Now, in those tiny seats, how difficult do you think it'll be to slow him down long enough for your buds to dash over and help you? Keep in mind his gun is concealed.

Not very difficult at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837713 - 08/21/03 03:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I actually wanted to hear what you had to say bout the responce time as well... :frown:

So the terrorist fired the anti tank missle into the pentagon?  Or did the plane act like a missle flying over the ground but then turned into a missle so as not to harm the lawn? :confused:

im sorry, but you confused me...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837732 - 08/21/03 04:03 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I remember the Stewart story but not well as I don't follow golf.

How long between the time contact was lost and the time the fighters were scrambled? I seem to remember the incident lasted several hours which would explain the number of jets.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837738 - 08/21/03 04:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm saying that the plane flew over the lawn and hit the building.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837784 - 08/21/03 04:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, fair enough....

and what do you make of this?

Quote:

rono sayz...
"Now let's count how many Jets were scrambled in total for only 1 private jet...10!...(and 1 re-fueling tanker) 10 jets in total were scrambled from various parts of the country in that instance for a private jet that was not responding to radio contact.

Now forward to 9/11...2 jets hit the towers in New York, 1 hits the Pentagon, 1 crash lands in Pennsylvania...now how many jets were scrambled for those? if you guessed 0 you are correct.

I don't know how you can say with a straight face that every airbase in every state involved was incompetent...ESPECIALLY since there is one VERY close to the Pentagon.

Mr.m says...
Sure. I can see that.

But still the fact remains that the two incidents are completely unalike in their magnitude. Which is why one induced a level of panic that caused the system to break down and the other didn't.




Do you also believe that every person just shit thier pants all at once, or can you add a logical reason for the incomprehendable incompetance shown that day....besides bush knew?

Because the way it stands, it seems theres a huge hole in teh story in which the credibility of the fuck up is disapearing...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837800 - 08/21/03 04:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"Now let's count how many Jets were scrambled in total for only 1 private jet...10!...(and 1 re-fueling tanker) 10 jets in total were scrambled from various parts of the country in that instance for a private jet that was not responding to radio contact.




When and where was that?

There have been many incidents in the past two years of airplanes violating restricted airspace (a couple of nuke plants, some govt buildings), and jets did not get there in time to prevent them from doing anything. Luckily, they were not out to do harm.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837801 - 08/21/03 04:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

But still the fact remains that the two incidents are completely unalike in their magnitude. Which is why one induced a level of panic that caused the system to break down and the other didn't.




Sorry man...but even you have to admit that's a pretty weak excuse...I have a hard time believing that every trained military personel across the country were too busy hiding under their desks to react to a crisis situation...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837812 - 08/21/03 04:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
Quote:

"Now let's count how many Jets were scrambled in total for only 1 private jet...10!...(and 1 re-fueling tanker) 10 jets in total were scrambled from various parts of the country in that instance for a private jet that was not responding to radio contact.




When and where was that?

There have been many incidents in the past two years of airplanes violating restricted airspace (a couple of nuke plants, some govt buildings), and jets did not get there in time to prevent them from doing anything. Luckily, they were not out to do harm.




Sigh...PAYNE STEWART Monday October 25, 1999 ...ring a bell?

The point is that jets WERE scrambled in those instances...you just said it yourself...so AGAIN I ask...WHY WEREN'T THEY SCRAMBLED DURING 9/11?

Jeez...it seems like a fairly straight forward question, why is everyone dodging it?

Bush Knew


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Edited by Rono (08/21/03 04:32 PM)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837825 - 08/21/03 04:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Because it is impossible to answer, and the only logical explanation is that some conspiratorial shit was going down at least somewhere down the line, if not on the rod itself.

I guess if no more reasons are put forth, we can assume everyone agrees...honeslty i can't think of any.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837849 - 08/21/03 04:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I admit nothing of the kind. I find it to be a very plausible reason given the circumstances.

The difference between us on this issue depends on our interpretation of the data. I see it like you look at Bush's face when he is told the second plane crashed into the towers and say, "look at his face! He knew!, and I see the same clip and say, "look at his face! He is thinking, "What the fuck do we do now?"

Until the moment comes when I am offered REAL quanitifiable evidence that shows Bush actually knew I am going to assume two things:

1. The level of incompetency in government is huge beyond imagination.
2. Extreme situations induce panic that causes systems to shut down.

I assume these things because they are incontrovertible fact.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837867 - 08/21/03 04:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

2. Extreme situations induce panic that causes systems to shut down.

Its not as if the planes were going to hit all those people in 5 minutes...why would they panick instead of doing thier jobs? It just doesn't seem to add up...
All the people that jumped to sure death from the burning towers many stories up had a reason to be panicking...not air traffic controlers, or military personel.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837870 - 08/21/03 04:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

This argument is BS me thinks. This is an interview with one of the pilots of the jets that were scrambled.

http://www.poconorecord.com/report/911-2002/000232.htm


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837874 - 08/21/03 04:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ah, found it. http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/25/wayward.jet.07/

Sorry, too much stuff in this thread.

I don't know why they would bother to have unarmed jets tailing Stewarts plane, but looks like they had an extremely long response time to do so.

Intercepting the jets on 9/11 was not something we were logistically prepared to do. We're still not, really. But JETS WERE SCRAMBLED, just not from Andrew AFB.

If you hijacked a plane right this minute, and kept the pilot off the radio, you'd have plenty of time to do whatever you wanted with it, imho.

Pre-911, no way in hell would they have ever shot down an airplane that had been hijacked. Some people still contend that the plane over PA was shot down by airforce jets, but I personally do not think so.

From what I can find out, Air National Guard f-15 fighters were scrambled at 8:44 am from Otis ANGB.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.hijack.warning/
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/world/5936492.htm
http://blogs.salon.com/0001337/stories/2002/09/03/911Timeline.html


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837877 - 08/21/03 04:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Frankly, I don't give a shit what Bush's facial expression were...

At the point of 9/11 they supposedly had no idea that they were terrorist attacks, so why would there be such extrme panic?

The thought that every person associated with defending the continental U.S. during 9/11 panicked and their brains shut down is laughable...surely you can see that.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837885 - 08/21/03 04:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

We were caught flat-footed.

IMHO, we are still not prepared for another such attack, though you won't find another group of passengers as compliant as those on planes 1-3.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837889 - 08/21/03 04:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Taken from your sources...

"The Air Force jets that were scrambled during the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks received White House clearance to shoot down the hijacked airliners -- but only after the last of them crashed into a field in rural Pennsylvania, an Air Force general testified at a hearing Friday."


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1837892 - 08/21/03 04:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Hijacking an American airliner would be much more difficult to pull off now I think. The doors are reinforced on the cockpits now, and the passengers know what the outcome will be if the don't act. I would sacrifice myself to save others on the ground.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837904 - 08/21/03 04:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I would tend to agree...but as someone stated earlier in this thread, at the time the passengers probably assumed that it was a 'standard' hijacking attempt...one would assume that they would land the plane, negotiations would take place etc...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837909 - 08/21/03 04:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Sounds like inefficient SOP. Ask anyone who pulls triggers about 'permission to fire'.



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837911 - 08/21/03 04:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Taken from your sources...

"The Air Force jets that were scrambled during the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks received White House clearance to shoot down the hijacked airliners -- but only after the last of them crashed into a field in rural Pennsylvania, an Air Force general testified at a hearing Friday."





What exactly is your point? They were unsure of the number of jets that were remaining at that point, if any. Everything happened very quickly.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837922 - 08/21/03 04:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Well it appears the piolets reacted quite fast and efficently after the delayed call to scramble...but unfortunately ?I was the same as everyone else. I was shocked and disbelieving, and frustrated that we were so late.?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837930 - 08/21/03 04:56 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Sounds like the FAA screwed up on that one. Hardly the conspiracy that you guys were suggesting though.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837933 - 08/21/03 04:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Airliners have very specific flight paths...if they deviate from said fight paths without authorization, all sorts of alarms go off. They could tell at any given time which planes were off course and how many of them there were. Welcome to wonderful world of technology and computers...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837943 - 08/21/03 05:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Sounds like the FAA screwed up on that one. Hardly the conspiracy that you guys were suggesting though. 




I suggested numerous factors..
One being the conspiracy
Second being the incompetance of the defense to scramble aircraft to numerous planes that deviated off course after suddenly loosing radio contact.

oh!...just thought of another..
The terrorists were really, really good. :tongue:


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1838027 - 08/21/03 05:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

the sad thing about this is
that
while we sit here and argue about what may or may
not have happend

bush continues to do whatever the fuck he wants



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1838039 - 08/21/03 05:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know if it was a conspiracy or incopetence, but I most certainly agree with Rono and Mr Mushroooms:
Quote:

Rono said:
Then explain why a country like Canada, that is considerably larger than the U.S. doesn't suffer from terrorist attacks...we have virtually no defence, and much more area to cover. I'm guessing it's because we aren't going around pissing off other countries to start with...but that's just my opinion.

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Bingo!  Johnny show the winner what he's won! :smile:


 


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1838162 - 08/21/03 06:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

It's already been proven that it IS procedure to do so when radio contact is lost.
It's been proven that Jets can be scrambled in minutes for this same reason.
It's been proven that it has been done in the past...

So I ask the simple question...WHY WEREN'T ANY JETS SCRAMBLED ON 9/11?


The thing is, jets were NOT scrambled in every case that met the prescribed profile. You keep harping on and on about Payne Stewart's case. Fine -- in that case the procedures were followed. But in a stretch of some years before 9/11, there were over 400 incidents that met all the same criteria, and jets were scrambled for just over 110 of those incidents.

Now I know you are going to ask me for a link, and I have been diligently searching my bookmarks and notepad for it, but I can't find it. Maybe someone else can Google it for me. I swear on a stack of bibles that I am not making this up.

The thing, is you are acting as if this lack of scrambling was UNIQUE -- it was not. As a matter of fact, it was the norm -- interceptors were scrambled for roughly one out of four incidents. I am sure that figure is a lot higher today, however.

pinky


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Phred]
    #1838168 - 08/21/03 06:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Uh, jets were scrambled. It's a myth that they were not.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Phred]
    #1838189 - 08/21/03 06:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You keep harping on and on about Payne Stewart's case.




The only reason I was "harping" as you put it...was because some of our users here needed to be reminded of it apparently...


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1838196 - 08/21/03 06:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Rono writes:

The only reason I was "harping" as you put it...was because some of our users here needed to be reminded of it apparently...

The Payne Stewart case in and of itself is quite literally meaningless. It is a single case. What counts is the percentage of cases where all procedures are followed correctly. Pre 9/11, that percentage was roughly 25%.

I'm still searching for that link. It was from NORAD or the FAA or some government website.

pinky




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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1838259 - 08/21/03 06:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't dodge it. I asked a follow up question which you either missed (likely) or ignored. (not as likely unless you were more interested in your comfort monkey)


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1838297 - 08/21/03 07:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes Rono, You are correct, it has always been the policy of the American government to shoot down all airplanes that stray off course. As I am sure you are aware, this has happened many, many times.


BTW, you seem to be overlooking the fact that the flushable toilet was invented by Thomas Crapper. How do you explain that?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1838667 - 08/21/03 08:52 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

LDS - "Hey Hobbit, would you please stop using that fucking quick reply! "

I didn't know I was, does it fuck something up?

"Have you flown much?

Picture this.... you are a hijacker, you believe you know which passenger is the air marshal. You get up, walk towards the john, and as you pass him, you pounce on him. Now, in those tiny seats, how difficult do you think it'll be to slow him down long enough for your buds to dash over and help you? Keep in mind his gun is concealed.

Not very difficult at all"

Hmmm, well, it sounds like a calculated risk on the part of the highjacker in this scenario that he has figured out who the air marshall is, so maybe he's right, maybe not. If, however, such a security agent is not undercover, making it clear that there's security on the plane, wouldn't that be even better, and serve to discourage any attempted highjacking? I don't think undercover would be the way to go in this situation. Having quick access to his firearm would make sense too, don't you think? Beyond all this, having the pilots armed could help, but I'd think the first line of defense, an armed agent on the plane, visible to everyone, would be most helpful.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1838910 - 08/21/03 10:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Yes Rono, You are correct, it has always been the policy of the American government to shoot down all airplanes that stray off course.




Huh? Got any links?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1838918 - 08/21/03 10:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I wzzzz being a smartasss.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1838926 - 08/21/03 10:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I am stoned as hell. :smile:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1838927 - 08/21/03 10:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shoot down all airplanes





No, just showing some interest would be nice though.

But these people walked away whistling and pretending that they didn't know what was going on.







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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1838969 - 08/21/03 10:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What the hell are you rambling about? They did scramble the jets. It was just not fast enough. :confused:


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1838997 - 08/21/03 10:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

They played with their dick for almost a half and hour and you call that interest?

They may have been deployed eventually, but they probably had to go out for something anyway.





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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1839348 - 08/22/03 01:20 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Half an hour from what till what?


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1839597 - 08/22/03 04:11 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Frankly, I don't give a shit what Bush's facial expression were...

At the point of 9/11 they supposedly had no idea that they were terrorist attacks, so why would there be such extrme panic?

The thought that every person associated with defending the continental U.S. during 9/11 panicked and their brains shut down is laughable...surely you can see that.




Ok, where were we?

Right. My analogy was just that. I was likening your interpretation of the data and mine to our reactions to a video clip. It was an analogy, forget it.

To sum up what has been said it appears there are at least three views.

1. In the single isolated incident of Stewart Payne the military sent 10 planes in the course of a couple of hours. This means Bush knew.

2. The planes aren't normally scrambled. In fact, pre-911 it only happened 25% of the time.

3. The planes were scrambled.

While I respect your view on this I think I'd like a few more facts before changing my mind.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1840356 - 08/22/03 12:00 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheHobbit said:
Beyond all this, having the pilots armed could help, but I'd think the first line of defense, an armed agent on the plane, visible to everyone, would be most helpful. 




N0..no..no....its all so simple....

ARM THE PASSENGERS!,,, :tongue:


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1840368 - 08/22/03 12:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

With what?  Clubs?  :lol:

I have no problems arming the pilots and crew provided they use rubber bullets.  All that is needed is to disarm the terrorists, not blow holes in the airplane.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1840375 - 08/22/03 12:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

^^^agreed. I do not want to be a in a plane that's de-pressurized because some moron shot a hole in it.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: silversoul7]
    #1840387 - 08/22/03 12:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly!

Morons and guns do not mix. :wink:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1840417 - 08/22/03 12:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Half an hour from what till what?




27 minutes from the time Flight 11 was considered to have been highjacked to the time NORAD was informed of this.


Quote:

"The plane did not obey the order and its transponder was turned off. Air traffic control manager Glenn Michael said, "we considered it at that time to be a possible hijacking."







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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: silversoul7]
    #1840421 - 08/22/03 12:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You can shoot out windows in an airplane and it will not be subject to explosive decompression of any sort. The compressors will have to kick in harder, and the plane will probably have to drop to a lower altitude. Worst that'll happen is that your ears will pop.

Jetliners vent off air continuously, with compressors keeping the plane in a state of positive ventilation, taking in fresh air from the outside.



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1840429 - 08/22/03 12:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, the concept of explosive decompression is a myth for the most part.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: silversoul7]
    #1840434 - 08/22/03 12:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Arming passengers with clubs is not a bad idea, though. I carry a billiard ball and a pair of socks when I fly.

I certainly would not give them guns. Pilots yes, passengers no.



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1840435 - 08/22/03 12:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Snafu.

How many minutes until the second plane hit the tower?

Less than 27 minutes I'll bet.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1840871 - 08/22/03 02:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Yep, the concept of explosive decompression is a myth for the most part.




decompression however can be a serious problem. Especially if its a structural crack or what not, because the added stress to the area may lead to structural failure.
I worked in a/c structures, and theres ALOT of shit that needs to be done, if your repairing a pressurised aircraft compared to non.
Lets just say i would NOT feel safe if one of those window blew, and for good reason!


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1840961 - 08/22/03 03:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'd rather not have holes poked in a plane that I am in, but I'd feel a lot better about a hole in the plane than a jihadi behind the controls.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841195 - 08/22/03 04:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

even knowing I used to work on a/c structures?! :ooo: you are brave indeed.... :wink:


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841200 - 08/22/03 04:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Compared to the alternative of having the ship flown into a football stadium or something it would be worth the risk to me.


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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841278 - 08/22/03 04:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have some faith in the NDT inspector that followed you :P



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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841297 - 08/22/03 05:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

heh....you'd be surprised at some of the things i saw...the AME, as they're called here, has 4-10 people like me to inspect. Actually i was good at what i did, but i saw others hide some bad shit...if you want to hide something, you usually get away with it, and its the inspectors ass if the plane crashes. They only make $30 an hour on average, thats a main reason i didn't pursue that career....that and FAA regulation of drug testing in canadian companies dealing with american a/c parts...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841302 - 08/22/03 05:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I used to weld nuke plants together in the navy. No way in hell you get any defects past the NDT inspectors.

Civilian world is a whole 'nother story.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841308 - 08/22/03 05:14 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

$30 Canadian per hour? That's not bad at all, especially if you get overtime.

How many Loonies to the US dollar?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841315 - 08/22/03 05:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

True, some take thier job much more seriously than others... your talking NDT as in non destructive testing right? Depends on where you work to,...air canada they're pretty good, and there is no getting by ndt cus they have that dye penetration technique and whatnot....when i worked at the composite manufacturing place though, it was a small business, they don't have ndt inspectors, just ame's and shit went down....


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841335 - 08/22/03 05:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, Non Destructive Testing.

Dye penetrant, ultrasonic, magnetic, or x-ray.

It was kind of cool, but I'm glad I don't do it anymore.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841338 - 08/22/03 05:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
$30 Canadian per hour? That's not bad at all, especially if you get overtime.

How many Loonies to the US dollar?




Not sure what the rate is....but apprentices get 12-14/hour with increments up to 18-20 dollars around year 5. Then its a shitload of tests, and you have your license. 30 ain't bad, but your responsible for the work of 4-10 apprentices below you, so you had best know your shit, cus if a plane goes down its your ass.
I could have lived with that, but noone can tell me what i do on my free time, and i got tired of using flush kits etc...
There is lots of overtime at a place like air canada too, free flights, full dental medical etc...my pricipals are more important.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,282
Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841342 - 08/22/03 05:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I always just cheated on drug tests. It's easy :smile:



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841344 - 08/22/03 05:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
Yeah, Non Destructive Testing.

Dye penetrant, ultrasonic, magnetic, or x-ray.

It was kind of cool, but I'm glad I don't do it anymore.




You actually did the NDT? thats cool, did you have your license and everything? what did they pay you?...it was in the military?...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841357 - 08/22/03 05:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
I always just cheated on drug tests. It's easy :smile:

 




You carry one of those piss packs or something?....it was random in the field, the compostie place i worked at didn't test....but they went out of business within 6 months of me starting.... :mad:NO!, the two events were NOT related... :wink:



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841382 - 08/22/03 05:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Nah, I was the guy who's welds got tested.

I was in the navy, so I got 4 cents an hour.

I cheated on pre-employment drug testing as a civilian, where you go into a bathroom unsupervised and fill up a bottle. I would either smuggle in some clean water to dilute, or just drink a lot before the test.

When I was active military I would drink tons of water and pee alot before testing, on the few occasions that I was worried about it.



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841399 - 08/22/03 05:36 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

interesting! :smile:

Well back on topic...sorry, if anyone actually read through all that... :blush:
wingtux, how are you preparing to survive this dreaded bush dictatorship, or martial law? is preperation unescessary, or have you stockpiled food?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841407 - 08/22/03 05:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Damn dude,how long ago were you tested? That drink a bunch of water shit would not fly with the newer tests if you are any kind of regular drug user,especially the military ones.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1841443 - 08/22/03 05:52 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have plenty of general-purpose survival gear. Going through countless typhoons and hurricanes, blackouts, water and gas shortages lets you know what is handy to have around :smile:


  • MRE's- I have about 10 of these laying around from my last deployment.
  • Water- Anyone who lives in the desert without water is a fool. You never know when a construction crew will break a line or something.
  • Flashlights- and of course batteries for them.
  • First Aid- I am studying to be an EMT and trauma nurse right now, but everyone should have first aid supplies.
  • Fire extinguisher- another 'duh' item
  • Guns- I have one gun for self defense, and 5 more because they're fun :smile:
  • Tools- I make stuff all the time, so I can turn into MacGuyver at a moment's notice. Welding, carpentry, leather crafting, whatever.
  • Fuel- This one caught me with my pants down. Phoenix is in the midst of a gas shortage right now, due to a broken pipeline. I need to go get some gas cans to fill up for the short term.
  • Misc- camping & 4x4 gear is all survival gear.
  • Duct Tape & nylon cord- fixes anything
  • Plastic Sheeting- I can make my own drinking water with a sheet of plastic and a shovel.



And no, I am not worried about martial law being imposed.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: monoamine]
    #1841450 - 08/22/03 05:53 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It lowers the PPM count to acceptable levels. It takes a while to build up in your bladder.

If they make you sit there for an hour or so then it wont work.

I think the military used the EMIT test when I was in. They'd only do spectroscopy to confirm a positive result, cause that shit's expensive.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841468 - 08/22/03 05:58 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I was reading something the other day about how military pilots carry some kind of hand-held distiller that will convert salt water to drinkable? Know anything about that?

How do you go about getting water from plastic and a shovel? Just give me the basic gist of it if you can. This wouldn't work in any kind of arid conditions or somewhere with a low aquafer,would it?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1841486 - 08/22/03 06:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

They won't work now if they're diluted.They check for creatine and all kinds of shit now,even the cheaper ones. They've come a long way in the last few years,but they still give false postives all the time.

The military are about the only people that test for LSD. Standard corporate tests only look for weed,barbiturates,PCP,opiates,coke,and amphetamines.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Posts: 2,282
Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: monoamine]
    #1841888 - 08/22/03 08:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You can boost your creatine through the roof by taking creatine monohydrate. I take it when I work out.

I know they tested for that the last time I cheated. I'm sure it was a fairly cheap test, though.

You make water with a sheet of plastic by making a solar still:

http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/dec/stories/water.html

I learned that in the boy scouts :smile:


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1842272 - 08/22/03 10:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I bow down to the navy welder. I do some 4x4 welding stuff in my spare time for my friends and myself. I trust them to hold the weight of the vehicle and stuff, but they are ugly as hell sometimes. Real welding is an art form for sure. When you are into 4 wheeling you automatically have a bunch of survival shit, just to survive the trail. :smile:


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1842340 - 08/22/03 10:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

to be a good welder you just have to do it A LOT. took me years to get really good at it. now I'm kinda rusty.

What do you use, 6011 or 7018 stick?

My Seabee detachment finally got a bunch of welding jobs for us to do. We are renovating animal habitats at the Phoenix zoo! It's pretty cool. I spent last weekend welding up wheelchair-accessible doors for the Owl Habitat :smile:



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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1842452 - 08/22/03 11:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I think the real question is, after the welding is done, how well do you dance?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: wingnutx]
    #1842984 - 08/23/03 10:15 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I just use a 220V Hobart MIG right now. I want to get a AC/DC cracker box at some point. I also have my own torch set up, a tubing bender that should be hydraulic soon, notcher, chop saw, and assorted grinders and other stuff.

I want to get a bandsaw and a mill($$$) next.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1843123 - 08/23/03 11:48 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

My dad is a master at TIG welding...did it on helicopters for years, but has his own business now. Does welding for specialty motor bikes and whatnot....better than a machine, its crazy.
I thought about doing welding instead of a/c structures....it was pretty fun.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1843136 - 08/23/03 11:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I would love a good TIG machine. To much money though. Oh yeah, the third tool I want is a plasma cutter. They cost lots of bling to though. Once I start making parts again this fall, maybe I can make enough to buy one.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1843266 - 08/23/03 12:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It's weird... cuz it sounds like English, but...


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1843272 - 08/23/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Now I'm cinfused.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1843540 - 08/23/03 02:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I have a 220/440 machine called a Powcon. Navy Surplus :smile:

It does TIG or Stick, but DC only. It'll carbon arc, too.

I want one that does AC so that I can weld aluminum.

My gf is bugging me to make all our furniture out of steel. I need to get some more tools set up first. 


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