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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837464 - 08/21/03 02:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Not if no one wants to pay for it. Security comes at a cost other than monetary as well. Freedom, as we are seeing with the likes of the Patriot Act.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: shakta]
    #1837465 - 08/21/03 02:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
At any rate, that doesn't prove anything.




Wrong..it proves that alot of things that should have been done, and that have been done in the past, weren't done.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837470 - 08/21/03 02:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It proves that one small plane was intercepted more quickly one time.


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837479 - 08/21/03 02:47 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"How many potential targets do you think there are?
Nuke plants, power plants, bridges, sports arenas, cruise ships, airports, and many more including buildings. Which do you protect, which do you leave to fate? It can't be done.

The pilots in this country should have been armed years ago. There would probably have been NO crashes that day."

There's shitloads of potential targets, no doubt, but I'd think that the more prominent ones would have some degree of security protocol in place in regards to them. Huge buildings, housing thousands of people, and nuclear power plants, the destruction of which would obviously be a big problem, would seem to me to make the most sense from a priority perspective; leaving other potential targets to fate is unfortunate, for sure, but if you have limited resources for such purposes, wouldn't it make sense to establish a sound security program in regards to these at least? I don't see why on flight security hasn't existed either, if not the pilots having guns, as they are kinda busy flying the planes, then an agent flying with every flight.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837492 - 08/21/03 02:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

They aren't covered now for the most part. There are plenty of articles about just how vulnerable we still are. There is little that can be done.

And I was wrong about the number of daily commercial flights....
"Of the 22,000 daily commercial aviation flights, the average number of daily system delays recorded by the FAA from April through August totaled 1290."
Link

Question - How do you cover 22,000 flights?
Answer - Arm the pilots.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837507 - 08/21/03 02:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I don't see why on flight security hasn't existed either, if not the pilots having guns, as they are kinda busy flying the planes, then an agent flying with every flight.



Security has sucked for years because we became complacent. Cheesy doors didn't help. Pilots are the last line of defense and once the cockpit has been breached they and they alone have the potential to do anything. Perhaps you've heard of air marshals. What good are they? Cops are generally fairly easy to pick out of a crowd. What could one or even two have done to stop suicidal hijackers?














--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837527 - 08/21/03 03:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

There is a big difference in assuming the government lies and believing everything Art Bell tells you


Okay fine...so maybe you could comment on why no jets were sent to intercept?....I realize that you are not in command of NORAD or the Air force, so just your opinion will do...

It's already been proven that it IS procedure to do so when radio contact is lost.
It's been proven that Jets can be scrambled in minutes for this same reason.
It's been proven that it has been done in the past...

So I ask the simple question...WHY WEREN'T ANY JETS SCRAMBLED ON 9/11?




Yeah, as was mentioned I wasn't here. I was helping a candidate.

I thought I answered this question before. We weren't prepared to be that responsive. Translate that into, "We fucked up." The same can be said for the passengers. They thought, mistakenly I might add, that the 'government' could solve their problems.

Turns out they couldn't and they can't. Each of us are directly responsible to take care of ourselves as much as possible. There are emergency situations that no one, including ourselves, can prevent.

As luv pointed it we can't protect ourselves completely using the government in that situation.

Also imagine that we could have responded as we should. The end of that scenario would have been the government shooting down the planes before they made contact. Imagine that, drink that in. What response would the citizens have had?


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1837536 - 08/21/03 03:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"Not if no one wants to pay for it. Security comes at a cost other than monetary as well. Freedom, as we are seeing with the likes of the Patriot Act."

Paying for it financially, what do I know of where the taxes go, maybe the funds do exist for maintaining a greater degree of security in regards to prominent targets, or maybe the military could include such protection within the domian of what they do; some reasonable solution could be found, I'd think.

"Freedom,..." Freedom's a pretty big concept, and how much do we give up for the purpose of safeguarding ourselves? I don't know, but people hold the concept of freedom pretty close to their hearts here, and giving up so much that one's own privacy is significantly compromised probably wouldn't sit too well with most people.

"It proves that one small plane was intercepted more quickly one time."

Come on man, if they could be on that plane, they can respond to others as well.



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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Learyfan]
    #1837547 - 08/21/03 03:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

There isn't any other sane way to see it.





PRIOR KNOWLEDGE ARCHIVE







If you are given to such conspiracy theories I must also assume you think Vincent Foster was murdered by Herr Klinton. Or does your propensity for conspiracy only lean in one direction?


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837548 - 08/21/03 03:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"Security has sucked for years because we became complacent. Cheesy doors didn't help. Pilots are the last line of defense and once the cockpit has been breached they and they alone have the potential to do anything. Perhaps you've heard of air marshals. What good are they? Cops are generally fairly easy to pick out of a crowd. What could one or even two have done to stop suicidal hijackers?"

I'd have to agree that one air marshall or cop against a group of highjackers wouldn't be good odds - but they shouldn't be able to get on the plane with guns, one hopes, and so a marshall armed with a gun should have an advantage over even several highjackers with ceramic knives.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837550 - 08/21/03 03:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Also imagine that we could have responded as we should. The end of that scenario would have been the government shooting down the planes before they made contact. Imagine that, drink that in. What response would the citizens have had?




Like I said..no-one is saying that the planes should or shouldn't have been shot down. But not ONE single plane was even sent to intercept or investigate...I'd say that goes far beyond a simple "Fuck up".


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837560 - 08/21/03 03:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It's already been proven that it IS procedure to do so when radio contact is lost.
It's been proven that Jets can be scrambled in minutes for this same reason.
It's been proven that it has been done in the past...

So I ask the simple question...WHY WEREN'T ANY JETS SCRAMBLED ON 9/11?

Answer- We weren't prepared to be that responsive

.....,there were plenty of airworthy jets and personnel who could have intercepted, but didn't.......why?

I know the us is pretty incompetant, but i just can't believe they wouldn't investigate or at least send up some jets for a look, after the numerous radio contacts that were lost from the hyjacked planes....especially after the first one crashed......how can you swallow that?

And if so, why are the other measures of security put into place(patriot act, department of homeland security), when if they had responded as they should have, the situation prolly would have been avoided?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (08/21/03 03:11 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Rono]
    #1837562 - 08/21/03 03:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It's pretty obvious that it was a major and complex fuck-up. Who could think otherwise?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837565 - 08/21/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

someone not blinded by patriotism? :laugh:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837571 - 08/21/03 03:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I could...A fuck-up of that magnitude is beyond comprehension. I think that anyone that doesn't at least 'suspect' Bush knew is fooling themselves.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837576 - 08/21/03 03:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I know the us is pretty incompetant, but i just can't believe they wouldn't investigate or at least send up some jets for a look, after the numerous radio contacts that were lost from the hyjacked planes....especially after the first one crashed......how can you swallow that?




That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary.

Quote:

And if so, why are the other measures of security put into place(patriot act, department of homeland security), when if they had responded as they should have, the situation prolly would have been avoided?




My guess is they want to strip us of the few remaining freedoms we have.


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1837587 - 08/21/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

" know the us is pretty incompetant, but i just can't believe they wouldn't investigate or at least send up some jets for a look, after the numerous radio contacts that were lost from the hyjacked planes....especially after the first one crashed......how can you swallow that?"

I don't know that it's really a matter of incompetence, it seems more deliberate than that. How does explain a complete breech of response procedures in this situation? Ooops?

"And if so, why are the other measures of security put into place(patriot act, department of homeland security), when if they had responded as they should have, the situation prolly would have been avoided?"

Smells a little funny, but this is where the conspiracy theory starts taking off, of course.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837588 - 08/21/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary.



I have worked in the military, and I can guarantee that the ONLY reason jets weren't scrambled was because they were told not to...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: ]
    #1837589 - 08/21/03 03:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
That's easy.  I have worked with the government for years.  I know how incompetent they really are.  Believe me, it's scary.




Damn...never thought of that...i guess working for them could lead me to fully accept such icompetance.

you won this round... :mad: :wink:


edit: there is hope!
"I have worked in the military, and I can guarantee that the ONLY reason jets weren't scrambled was because they were told not to... "


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (08/21/03 03:20 PM)


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Surviving the Bush Dictatorship - Martial Law [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1837604 - 08/21/03 03:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"That's easy. I have worked with the government for years. I know how incompetent they really are. Believe me, it's scary."

Yes, very scary.

"My guess is they want to strip us of the few remaining freedoms we have."

Yes, that's scary too. But why take out their incompetence on the citizens with the Patriot Act?


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