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OfflineNobitte
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Endothermy in Fungi?
    #18280721 - 05/17/13 08:50 PM (11 years, 4 days ago)

Hi Guys/Gals,

So I've been thinking about this topic for a while but i just wanted to see what you fine people thought about it.

I was pottering around some (P. cubensis) substrates in my grow room and noticed that some of the rapidly colonizing ones appeared to be significantly warmer than room temperature.

This lead me to ask someone from my uni about what they consider endothermy, we came to the conclusion that they were likely endothermic but not homeothermic, in so much as they appear to produce heat (which may in turn assist colonization, but is not regulated by the fungus in a strict sense like vertebrates).

In any case, the chap said that they might make interesting models for looking at more 'primitive' or at the very least more basal means of producing heat (that in turn could be conducive to the growth of the mushroom).

It lead me to alot more imaginative thoughts i suppose, that the ideal growth parameters of different species on bulk substrates might also be an example of different levels of dynamic energy balance. Like for instance, we know that most cubensis strains do best around the 24 degree mark, is this a function of its capacity to produce/manage heat levels in the substrate? Does the metabolic 'phase'(vegetative/reproductive) of the mycelia have an effect on its heat generation?

I suppose its also worth asking, when we define growing parameters like that, are we talking about the ambient air temperature surrounding the organism, or the heat at the core of the substrate/mycellial mass?

Anyway, its probably best not to ask too many questions at once, id be interested to hear what y'all say about it, and any papers/references you can throw my way would be greatly appreciated. 

xxx
Nobitte


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Then... WE CAN TEACH :weirdeyes:

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: Nobitte]
    #18282310 - 05/18/13 04:38 AM (11 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

This lead me to ask someone from my uni about what they consider endothermy, we came to the conclusion that they were likely endothermic but not homeothermic, in so much as they appear to produce heat.




All metabolism produces heat.  AFAIK no life is endothermic.  Endotherm and ectotherm in biology is kind of a silly and reversed terminology.  It's highly unlikely they have any manner of temperature regulation.

Quote:

I suppose its also worth asking, when we define growing parameters like that, are we talking about the ambient air temperature surrounding the organism, or the heat at the core of the substrate/mycellial mass?




Parameters always refer to the environmental conditions.

Quote:

In any case, the chap said that they might make interesting models for looking at more 'primitive' or at the very least more basal means of producing heat (that in turn could be conducive to the growth of the mushroom).




Highly unlikely.  A couple degrees of heat from metabolic activity is to be expected.  It would be odd if this was not the case in an actively growing organism.

Yeast, for example, produces around 5 degrees of extra heat during active growth in brewing size volumes.  It's entirely related to their metabolic activity level.  Too much heat will slow their metabolism, thus producing less heat, but this is hardly any sort of intentional temperature regulation.

It's interesting stuff to think about, so don't quit thinking and posting, but you're probably overthinking it.  If this were the case, how would you prove it experimentally?  Thinking on that can often help you decide how reasonable the theory is.


-FF

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OfflineNobitte
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: fastfred]
    #18282365 - 05/18/13 05:25 AM (11 years, 3 days ago)

I have access to an IR camera i guess, which i think is a good start.

At the very least it might be interesting to have a look at heat generation during vegetation and reproduction. It could work as some sort of proxy for metabolic activity, if you wanted to look at that.

Are the growing edges hotter than the fully consolidated areas? Is there a significant increase in heat during fruitbody formation?

Some plants produce heat for a number of reasons as well, i wonder what stinkhorn/phallus sporocarps look like under the thermocam.

Lots of questions, not sure how important they are.


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First we must learn...

Then... WE CAN TEACH :weirdeyes:

Edited by Nobitte (05/18/13 06:04 AM)

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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: Nobitte]
    #18282595 - 05/18/13 07:25 AM (11 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Nobitte said:
I have access to an IR camera i guess, which i think is a good start.

At the very least it might be interesting to have a look at heat generation during vegetation and reproduction. It could work as some sort of proxy for metabolic activity, if you wanted to look at that.





That would be interesting.  Be sure to post a few as a follow-up to this thread.


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OfflineSpiral Climber
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: OICU812]
    #18285237 - 05/18/13 07:51 PM (11 years, 3 days ago)

I thought cubensis mycelium was doing best around the 27 Celcious mark not 24 like OP said?

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OfflineNobitte
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: Spiral Climber]
    #18285361 - 05/18/13 08:28 PM (11 years, 3 days ago)

24C is what I use, it might actually be 27C. I always felt 27C was a little on the hot side for bulk substrates that are generating their own heat, also its more expensive to run it at that temperature.

I did keep it around 27-28C at some point, but I noticed that my subs were drying out and I had an increased incidence or virulence of contamination. I also notice very little difference in growth rates between the two (in terms of my Cubensis cultures at least).

Another reason I tend to use 24C is because I have a range of projects(Egg incubator, fern gametophytes etc) in the grow room and I don't want to overheat them. In any case I think its better to err on the side of caution and keep them at 24, rather than chance giving the advantage to any rogue contaminant propagules that might be hanging around the place or cooking my substrates.


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Then... WE CAN TEACH :weirdeyes:

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: Nobitte]
    #18286228 - 05/19/13 01:05 AM (11 years, 2 days ago)

This is an area worth more investigation.  Because there is no major advantage in growth parameters over room temp. it has been largely neglected and poo-pooed by cultivators, and even here in advanced.

It's pretty easy to investigate without special equipment, so it's a shame that more isn't known about the exact effects of temp. on growth.


-FF

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OfflineNobitte
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: fastfred]
    #18286293 - 05/19/13 01:32 AM (11 years, 2 days ago)

How would you suggest attacking it?

I'm going to ramble until someone puts me on the right track.

You could measure growth on a linear media like agar using different isolates/strains at different temperatures and see how that goes. all you would require would be thermocouple/thermode/thermometer and a ruler. Although I more or less figured this was how it was done already.

I guess you could also do a comparative analysis of the behaviour of taxa adapted to different temperature ranges, or look at the responses of mono-cultures vs mixed cultures, isolates vs un-isolated.

To add to that I guess you could also look at the way that temperature affects the cell signaling and differentiation processes that lead to fruiting ana/teleo or otherwise?

I wish I was more equipped to deal with these sorts of questions, anyone feel like taking me on as a protégé?

Hawhaw.

:scaryshroom:


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First we must learn...

Then... WE CAN TEACH :weirdeyes:

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: Nobitte]
    #18287760 - 05/19/13 12:57 PM (11 years, 2 days ago)

If you don't let the biomass accumulate the environmental temp will be the same as the internal temp.  So all you really need is a digital thermostat hooked up to a heating system.

I built my cooler size incubator using a heating pad and a digital thermostat.  It seems to work pretty well.

For jars you can check the temp difference pretty easy too, but there are a lot of variables there.  The temp difference will probably be small until the myc gets most of it colonized, then will probably start to slow.  To get a good idea about this you'd probably have to log the temps the whole way through or at least set up a recording schedual.


-FF

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OfflineNobitte
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: fastfred]
    #18337630 - 05/29/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmm... it certainly would be easier to manipulate heat and measure growth and 'behaviour'. I guess I'm trying to get some sort of excuse for the chap at my uni to allow me to point the thermocam at some substrates.

Interestingly, I did some pretty sloppy work recently and got a spot of contamination in one of my substrate bags, the spot of sporulating parasite (probably Trichoderma, but potentially some other green spored parasite, I -really- need a new 1000x microscope) seemed to be noticeably hotter than the surrounding substrate. Which might be worth looking into.

I'm definitely keen on doing some heat experiments, but presently rather bogged down with other stuff.

I also feel like I need to do more reading on fungal genetics/physiology, but I'm having trouble finding time and deciding on what texts might be helpful/insightful/relevant.

I've got access to an E-copy of "Essential Fungal Genetics" by Frazer and Moore and my library has a copy of Fungal Physiology by Griffin, but I'm not sure if they're worth reading, given what id like to look into, thoughts? Is there anything more recent? I think fungal genetics is 2002, but the fungal phys copy is quite a bit older (I think).

xx
Nobitte


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Then... WE CAN TEACH :weirdeyes:

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: Nobitte]
    #18339024 - 05/29/13 03:54 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

You might try "Genetics and breeding of edible mushrooms".

It's pretty dry IIRC, but probably a little less heavy than those textbooks you mentioned.


-FF

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OfflineNobitte
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Re: Endothermy in Fungi? [Re: fastfred]
    #18340566 - 05/29/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I don't mind heavy I guess, I figure I have to learn the hard stuff eventually, but will definitely keep that one in mind.

As it goes, theres no one in my area that has a strong grasp on this stuff, as im aware of. So if I do learn the 'hard-stuff' ill get some serious kudos.

That said, if you really think what I need to know is in the text by Chang, ill hit it first.

I enjoyed reading Kendrick's Fifth Kingdom, but found it was a little outdated in terms of the present state of taxonomy/phylogeny and biotech. Still, found it an invaluable primer for the myco-taxonomic framework, so it was time well spent all the same.

I just ordered a new bifocal micro as well ^^, that goes up to 2000x, does all the fun stuff. So my work might be able to progress a little, first step is identifying the contaminant, maybe make an isolate of it, then I can start doing 'controlled infections' xD.


--------------------
First we must learn...

Then... WE CAN TEACH :weirdeyes:

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