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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: wildernessjunkie]
#18267675 - 05/15/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cervantes was being sarcastic. Workman did a lot of good stuff with breeding and came up with some interesting techniques.
My favorite is his technique of growing out a monokaryon in a PF jar/tray/whatever then inoculating it with multispore from a different strain. IIRC that's how he came up with the albino PE. His idea is that when you inject spores into a colonized monokaryotic culture they will be more likely to cross with it than simply cross with themselves.
Quote:
You deserved some sort of answer WJ, you did not just fall off the turnip truck. :0)
Last one I read was "Genetics and Breeding of Edible Mushrooms" http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Breeding-Edible-Mushrooms-Chang/dp/2881245617
It's pretty dry and technical. Mostly a collection of interesting papers IIRC. It's worth reading, but I can't recommend it as a definitive guide or "how to" book.
Quote:
Neither opinion is science.
Inbreeding IMO can harm natural selection.
But not always. It can also make special things happen... Like PE.
Inbreeding is the natural way mushrooms propagate. Spores are produced in clusters of 4 (tetraspore), one for each mating type. Often they don't separate and just mate back together. This will recover the original genetics of the parent usually (barring recombination).
If one spore mates with a spore from another cluster (still same parent) you will get the normal effect of independent assortment of chromosomes.
Even if the spores avoid this and mate with the spores from another mushroom, it will usually be a closely related neighbor, which will usually have even a sibling/parent relationship.
If you're going to start a breeding program I suggest breaking up the spores so you get more variation in your progeny. Using a surfactant (JetDry) or other methods can help break up the clusters...
Quote:
All spore clusters are gently broken up using ultrasonic frequency vibration, to ensure a even distribution of single spores rather than mass clumping of thousands. "An important industry standard that has yet to be realized by most of our competitors."
That's a quote from an unnamed vendor, although I do think in the context of this discussion it's pretty silly to not talk about who's doing what. Anybody can start selling spores, but some vendors actually do put some actual effort and knowledge into their programs.
-FF
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ProfessorPinHead
Trapped in the Archives....




Registered: 07/09/10
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Rose]
#18268607 - 05/15/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Workman? Who is that?
hmmmm... This question requires some serious research........
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Rose]
#18268859 - 05/15/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Workman? Who is that?
PS
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18268952 - 05/15/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Once again, the Internet fails the sarcasm test.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Rose]
#18268988 - 05/15/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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he likes to search his name, so i bet he chimes in sometime today
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Rose]
#18269400 - 05/15/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Once again, the Internet fails the sarcasm test.
Repeatedly. 
PS
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InTheBiggun
The Milk-Man



Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 200
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18271490 - 05/15/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Regarding Redboy ...
I first got some from Ralphsters about 10 years ago or so. At the time I had several on the go because it was fun to try new things and see the difference how each one did in various set-ups and temp regimes I had going.
The first few times I grew Redboy , I was growing on straw logs and occasionally manure logs also. One thing I noticed right away was that it didn't look like any other cube I had grown. The closest thing I could say they looked like was PE.

Many of the fruits were smallish and comically acorn-like , with in-rolled caps that never opened and distorted gills that barely produced a faint print.

One in 20 or less was an actual opening cap , but they to had almost a peach colored gill that was wavy and produced weak prints. I took it to agar and made isolates and grew on and off for several years. Even though the prints were weakish I had lots.
At various points I almost lost it do to contams and over-stashing prints , I was down to one lone jar that had been outside all winter in -20 C weather with no lid , and in the spring I was amazed it was bright white and I transfered some inside and cleaned it up some more.
So there was always two or more traits exhibited in every batch , the non-opening and the opening caps. As time went on and I moved to bulks and grew on manure the Redboy changed over time , over the years.
Here's the two different types again , years later , this time from the same small tray of manure.

The last time I dusted off the prints and grew in 100% pasteurized horse manure , no verm or anything , I got a huge variety pack of appearances from an MS print start.
The first flush there was 95% opening caps , but the fruits were like I had never seen before (even on the same manure) ... they were long and ropey , some more than 14 inches long , all with fully opening caps giving dark prints.

Here's the ropey flush:

The same tub next flush was full of the PE-like Super-Marios I call them. Super fleshy , dark blueing , weighty , super-stoney.
Here's the 'Mario flush starting: note the one along the wall in the very back.

The ones in the back row just kept getting bigger and bigger:
A bit later: sausage party !



At their final weight , the biggest one was 200 grams.

No spores from this monster:

Here's a pic of Mario's and opening-caps in the same tub , in the same flush:

This specimen is a ' Super-Mario. It got so huge it laid down and used the smaller fruits as a pillow. It also weighed almost 200 grams.

At the same time I grew some of the same batch mixed with horse manure in small yogurt container , invitro in a large ziplock bag. This one went ape-shit with snakey ropes , no marios , not even second flush. It seems the lack of FAE and C02 content changed these ones , especially their crinkly stalks.

Holy Snake-Balls


Anyhow I was wondering if the Redboy I have possibly has some sort of genetic hiccup that causes 2 distinct physical appearances from one MS spore print , every time. I have been running with it for a decade on and off and I don't think its a contam , seems more genetic. Could it be a disease or something similar ? I know growing them on different subs and in different conditions accounts for the ropey vs fat and stalky ... but what about the whacky mario ones in the same grow as fully opening dark-print making caps ? Any ideas ? I've racked my brain for eons as to whats happening here.
Any thoughts on the matter appreciated.
Edited by InTheBiggun (05/15/13 11:37 PM)
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: InTheBiggun]
#18271555 - 05/15/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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RedBoy was crossed between the original RedBoy and Puerto Rican, so it is plausible that some would demonstrate PR characteristics. Never heard of the Mario traits though.
Great pictorial and thanks for posting.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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InTheBiggun
The Milk-Man



Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 200
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Rose]
#18271647 - 05/15/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Definitely see the Puerto Rican in this Redboy. The thing is I don't see any other pictures of peoples Redboy that has full marios and opening caps. I've seen pics that look similar , but almost all have fully opening caps.
The wavy gills give indication of some kind of a something going on there as far as genetics. Although the last few batches have given nice dark prints in part of the group.
From the same grow you get caps with gills like this:

And also completely normal gilled caps that yield very dark prints:

The above normal gilled Redboys are about 5 % or under of any flush. Most are slightly wavy , slightly peach colored medium print yielders. The rest are marios and the odd super-mario as I showed above.
Here's some typical mario-like closed cappers:

This Redboy blues very deeply. If you take a small chunk and blend it in water for a few seconds , the water turns a deep azure blue.

Edited by InTheBiggun (05/15/13 11:32 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: InTheBiggun]
#18272068 - 05/16/13 12:49 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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a nice little mushroom lc! nice write up
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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GoldenArrow
Chasing self up spiral staircase



Registered: 10/05/11
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: cronicr]
#18272236 - 05/16/13 01:25 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm more impressed you have a blender you can screw a jar onto!
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InTheBiggun
The Milk-Man



Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 200
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: GoldenArrow]
#18273256 - 05/16/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, blender blade assembly fits perfectly on 70 mm jar. Those jars come in many sizes. I PC the blender blade in tinfoil at 5psi for 1/2 hour to clean.

Edited by InTheBiggun (05/16/13 03:56 PM)
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: InTheBiggun]
#18273920 - 05/16/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Any thoughts on the matter appreciated.
Lovely presentation. All of those phenotypes are familiar to me in various cubes I've grown over the years. A cross will exhibit, SFAIK, both the cross AND the parents, depending on the luck of the draw in germination. To stabilize the cross requires inbreeding (think weird satanic looking tiny dogs) and that requires occasional careful outbreeding to keep the more detrimental traits from taking over. If you however select from the "stable" inbred strain for the parents you can indeed recover the parents eventually. And that's what I think you were doing. 
Also, in what I've grown, the closed cappers always seemed like a degenerate strain - they would often go mushy before maturing, something wrong with their growth cycle. I see a bit of that in the phenotypes you've shown and the bluing patterns, along with the attenuated bases (substrate connection).
The big ones though - those are awesome. 
My one redspore grow looked like this:

PS
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Blackd0ve420
Peace Seeker



Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 3,605
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#18273932 - 05/16/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks for sharing..that's pretty cool it does that...would it do that for dry mushrooms too? Or only if you blend fresh?
Would make a cool drink to serve :P
-------------------- Just let it all go.. Laugh at the world and be free, Then Just breathe, Just breathe... *Blackdove* Click for Catnip!
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InTheBiggun
The Milk-Man



Registered: 06/01/09
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Blackd0ve420]
#18274049 - 05/16/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yah, just with fresh.
Blue ice "cubes" would be sweet to.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: cronicr]
#18274705 - 05/16/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: he likes to search his name, so i bet he chimes in sometime today
Wait.....what?
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: InTheBiggun]
#18274720 - 05/16/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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wiccan used the same thing for a cyan grow i believe, pretty sweet
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Rose]
#18274740 - 05/16/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said:
Quote:
cronicr said: he likes to search his name, so i bet he chimes in sometime today
Wait.....what?
Quote:
Cervantes said: Once again, the Internet fails the sarcasm test.
lol how goes workman! i got some baeo's on the go and your a true inspiration for it!
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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InTheBiggun
The Milk-Man



Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 200
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: cronicr]
#18274763 - 05/16/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey Workman
Hope all is well.
Any comment on whether the Redboy shown above could have mutantized or developed a genetic hiccup ?
I was hoping to get a chance to ask you what you thought about it if you had time.
Link: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18271490#18271490
Thanks in advance.
Edited by InTheBiggun (05/16/13 04:09 PM)
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Chemical Addiction



Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 2,020
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: InTheBiggun]
#18274951 - 05/16/13 04:42 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
InTheBiggun said: Hey Workman
Hope all is well.
Any comment on whether the Redboy shown above could have mutantized or developed a genetic hiccup ?
I was hoping to get a chance to ask you what you thought about it if you had time.
Link: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18271490#18271490
Thanks in advance.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7961194 i got all red prints when i printed mine, but apparently sometimes you will get normal cube spore colored prints
-------------------- Vegetation has crawled for miles towards the cities. It is waiting. Once the city is dead, the vegetation will cover it, will climb over the stones, grip them, search them, make them burst with its long black pincers; it will blind the holes and let its green paws hang over everything. —Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea
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