|
ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
|
Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real
#18216038 - 05/05/13 12:22 AM (11 years, 17 days ago) |
|
|
"A former FBI counterterrorism agent acknowledged this week on CNN that every telephone conversation that takes place on American soil “is being captured as we speak.”
“every telephone conversation Americans have with one another on US soil, with or without a search warrant ‘is being captured as we speak.’ ”
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/former_fbi_agent_confirms_the_surveillance_state_is_real_20130504/
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (05/05/13 12:40 AM)
|
fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] 4
#18216568 - 05/05/13 05:19 AM (11 years, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Old news.
This comes up time and again. Each time the public is shocked and outraged, for about 5 minutes, then they go back to toiling for the man without another thought about it.
People just don't really care anymore that our constitution isn't fit to wipe your ass with. They just pretend to care for a few minutes when a shocking violation is exposed, then totally forget about it when the microwave beeps or the phone rings.
Nobody cared about warrantless wiretaps and checking into your library books. Even when it's done by most likely the worst president in our history, who slaughtered hundreds-of-thousands of foreign savages, they still don't care.
Now we have warrantless wiretaps, surveillance of your internet, search, and reading history, recording of all your digital communications, and have stated that killing American citizens on American soil is completely on the table.
So they know almost everything you do, record all your communications, don't need a warrant to look through any of it, and can kill you with a remote control drone.
When the rise of the robots comes it will actually be a blessing to be liberated from the shit pile that is modern society. That may sound crazy, but how long can it really take when computers have access to the sum of human knowledge, plus everything we do and say, and have armed robots patrolling the sky.
-FF
-------------------- It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed "If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP) I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
|
Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc:
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: fastfred]
#18216780 - 05/05/13 07:24 AM (11 years, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fastfred said: Old news.
This comes up time and again. Each time the public is shocked and outraged, for about 5 minutes, then they go back to toiling for the man without another thought about it.
People just don't really care anymore that our constitution isn't fit to wipe your ass with. They just pretend to care for a few minutes when a shocking violation is exposed, then totally forget about it when the microwave beeps or the phone rings.
Nobody cared about warrantless wiretaps and checking into your library books. Even when it's done by most likely the worst president in our history, who slaughtered hundreds-of-thousands of foreign savages, they still don't care.
Now we have warrantless wiretaps, surveillance of your internet, search, and reading history, recording of all your digital communications, and have stated that killing American citizens on American soil is completely on the table.
So they know almost everything you do, record all your communications, don't need a warrant to look through any of it, and can kill you with a remote control drone.
When the rise of the robots comes it will actually be a blessing to be liberated from the shit pile that is modern society. That may sound crazy, but how long can it really take when computers have access to the sum of human knowledge, plus everything we do and say, and have armed robots patrolling the sky.
-FF
Post of the year and it's only May..
|
c1dh3d
The elephant is BACK




Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 5,229
Loc:
Last seen: 11 months, 5 days
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Adden]
#18218224 - 05/05/13 02:49 PM (11 years, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dystopia said:
Quote:
fastfred said: Old news.
This comes up time and again. Each time the public is shocked and outraged, for about 5 minutes, then they go back to toiling for the man without another thought about it.
People just don't really care anymore that our constitution isn't fit to wipe your ass with. They just pretend to care for a few minutes when a shocking violation is exposed, then totally forget about it when the microwave beeps or the phone rings.
Nobody cared about warrantless wiretaps and checking into your library books. Even when it's done by most likely the worst president in our history, who slaughtered hundreds-of-thousands of foreign savages, they still don't care.
Now we have warrantless wiretaps, surveillance of your internet, search, and reading history, recording of all your digital communications, and have stated that killing American citizens on American soil is completely on the table.
So they know almost everything you do, record all your communications, don't need a warrant to look through any of it, and can kill you with a remote control drone.
When the rise of the robots comes it will actually be a blessing to be liberated from the shit pile that is modern society. That may sound crazy, but how long can it really take when computers have access to the sum of human knowledge, plus everything we do and say, and have armed robots patrolling the sky.
-FF
Post of the year and it's only May..
Got that right
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 23 hours
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: fastfred]
#18223778 - 05/06/13 06:15 PM (11 years, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fastfred said: Old news.
Actually this is a new news story.
Quote:
Now we have warrantless wiretaps
Source?
|
BoomerMan420
Stranger



Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1,641
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#18223848 - 05/06/13 06:30 PM (11 years, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Fucking piggers
|
nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,714
Loc: Utah
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
#18224911 - 05/06/13 10:07 PM (11 years, 15 days ago) |
|
|
I don't believe it. The logistics would be impossible. You know how much hard drive space that would take up? Not even CERN has that much storage. Sure, they probably have the capability to tap whatever they want, but permanently storing all of it? There isn't a datacenter large enough in the world.
Slashdot reported it in a longer form:
Quote:
CNN anchors Erin Burnett and Carol Costello have interviewed Former FBI Counterterrorisim specialist Tim Clemente. In the interviews he asserts that all digital communications are recorded and stored. Clemente: 'No, welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not.' 'All of that stuff' — meaning every telephone conversation Americans have with one another on U.S. soil, with or without a search warrant — 'is being captured as we speak.' 'No digital communication is secure,' by which he means not that any communication is susceptible to government interception as it happens (although that is true), but far beyond that: all digital communications — meaning telephone calls, emails, online chats and the like — are automatically recorded and stored and accessible to the government after the fact. To describe that is to define what a ubiquitous, limitless Surveillance State is."
"All digital communications" would be totally impossible to store, there's just too much. A decent music collection for one person can reach into the terabytes, let alone every single phone conversation in the US, plus emails, plus forum posts, plus online chats. Which, by the way, recording every IRC conversation in the US would be just as completely insane. In any event, it's totally impossible. The data is just too big.
I suspect that this guy either: knows nothing about technology, is disgruntled, wants media attention, or is a conspiracy nut himself, or a combination of all these.
|
fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: BoomerMan420]
#18224991 - 05/06/13 10:26 PM (11 years, 15 days ago) |
|
|
> Actually this is a new news story.
It's a new article or interview, but there's no new information here. It's been widely reported in the past that the gov. came in and took over an entire floor of various AT&T buildings. There's plenty of other similar stories, which is why you can't really consider there to be much new here.
There's really not much question what they're doing when they take over a whole building floor, tap right into the main fiber lines, install millions worth of computing and telcom equipment, and keep the whole thing top secret.
It's pretty obvious when you do something like this that you're recording all the data you can. There's no legitimate purpose to intercept all this data, if there was the project wouldn't be classified.
>> Now we have warrantless wiretaps > Source?
It's been around since the patriot act. It's such common knowledge I'm surprised you're not aware of it. Here's a start... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
The patriot act clearly violates the constitution in so many outrageous ways it's not even funny. But even by the twisted standards that allow this abuse...
Quote:
officials at the United States Department of Justice acknowledged that the NSA had engaged in "overcollection" of domestic communications in excess of the FISA court's authority,
That's like a gang of criminals chastising each other for beating up their rape victim too badly.
Bottom line, you can't trust the government. Long ago they decided they can limit, twist, and outright shred anything they want in the constitution with the thousands of pages of bullshit legislation they pass each year.
Almost every time we find out another outrageous way they're raping the constitution, we later find out that it either had nefarious purposes in the first place, or it was so rampantly abused as to be embarrassing even to them.
I can't say I'm very optimistic for the human race. The types of people included in our system has expanded a bit, but no progress has been made in basic freedom. It's been all downhill since the revolution.
We have a corruption and bribery based system of government, with a fake system of "checks and balances" that only serve to distract people from any real issues. With technological progress this sick and twisted system just keeps invading further and further into everyone's lives.
I've become convinced that the next level of freedom will have to come from outside the US, and may never reach here at all.
-FF
|
SoreSpore
Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 7,481
Loc: Halfway there...
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: nooneman]
#18225023 - 05/06/13 10:35 PM (11 years, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
nooneman said: I don't believe it. The logistics would be impossible. You know how much hard drive space that would take up? Not even CERN has that much storage. Sure, they probably have the capability to tap whatever they want, but permanently storing all of it? There isn't a datacenter large enough in the world.
Are you kidding me? Microsoft provides a 25GB inbox a year to ALL educational services across the country for free. Their cloud services, Azure, are expanding to the point that they can support large corporations along with the thousands of other small and medium businesses with TB's and TB's of company data. America's budget is a hell of a lot bigger than Microsoft's.
Quote:
"All digital communications" would be totally impossible to store, there's just too much. A decent music collection for one person can reach into the terabytes, let alone every single phone conversation in the US, plus emails, plus forum posts, plus online chats. Which, by the way, recording every IRC conversation in the US would be just as completely insane. In any event, it's totally impossible. The data is just too big.
I agree with this, but cellular voice, SMS, MMS and data communication has been going on for 12 years. See the NSA Call Database
|
fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: SoreSpore] 2
#18225192 - 05/06/13 11:26 PM (11 years, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I suspect that this guy either: knows nothing about technology, is disgruntled, wants media attention, or is a conspiracy nut himself, or a combination of all these.
SS already made some points, but I don't think either of you really seem to have a good grasp on reality.
It would be difficult to record ALL digital communications and keep them forever, but certainly not impossible.
Try to think of it this way... Your personal share of the national debt is $53,359. But that's what they've spent above and beyond what they get from you. The average american pays about $10,000 in income tax per year.
A one terabyte hard drive costs about $80.00 at retail prices and they obviously pay MUCH less than this in quantity. 1TB can hold 36,408 hours of 64kbps mp3, even more if you do mono or lower bitrate or assume they might have or use a better compression method.
36,408 hours is about 4 years worth of continuous recording. If you talk on your phone only a few hours a day 1TB can probably easily hold your entire lifetime worth of phone calls.
So the government has $53,359 worth of debt on your behalf, and $10k per citizen per year. Do you really think it would be that hard for them to spend $80 on recording you?
You should assume they use better compression methods (that's a given), that they get a volume discount on storage, and that they probably don't worry about recording women and children. Combine that with other obvious ideas like backing up old stuff to another storage method, using voice recognition to convert it to text, etc., etc..
It doesn't seem far fetched to me in the least. In fact, it seems dirt simple and ridiculously cheap to me. I can't see how anyone would think it difficult in the least. My whole digital communication life would easily fit on an $80 hard drive.
-FF
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: fastfred] 2
#18225911 - 05/07/13 04:58 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fastfred said: It doesn't seem far fetched to me in the least. In fact, it seems dirt simple and ridiculously cheap to me. I can't see how anyone would think it difficult in the least.
That's because you're ignorant of what it would take to do. Bandwidth alone would make it impossible.
On top of that, it's illegal. You'd need literally thousands of people conspiring to illegally record all of these conversations...It would have been prosecuted long ago.
Plus, you should look at the source. That "former fbi counterintelligence agent" is a writer/actor/producer/tech consultant in Hollywood. He has a penchant for fiction and a need for publicity. It's safe to assume he's full of shit.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3153645/
P.S. Doesn't this thread belong in the conspiracy forum?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (05/07/13 05:06 AM)
|
Anonymous #1
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: Enlil]
#18226444 - 05/07/13 10:13 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Anonymous
Reason for deletion: f
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Anonymous #1]
#18226488 - 05/07/13 10:25 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Quoting from YOUR SOURCE:
"An NSA spokesperson said, 'Many unfounded allegations have been made about the planned activities of the Utah Data Center,' and further said that 'one of the biggest misconceptions about NSA is that we are unlawfully listening in on, or reading emails of, U.S. citizens. This is simply not the case.'"
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Enlil] 3
#18226498 - 05/07/13 10:28 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
And the government has never lied before, nope, they're too honest for that!
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Byrain]
#18226573 - 05/07/13 10:49 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
I see...so when a former government employee says something, it's true...but when a current government employee says something, it's a lie.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 23 hours
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Byrain]
#18226592 - 05/07/13 10:55 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: That's because you're ignorant of what it would take to do. Bandwidth alone would make it impossible.
Well not impossible. But it would take a storage center the size of walmart. They do have some huge data centers, but I doubt that it's recording all phone calls.
Quote:
On top of that, it's illegal. You'd need literally thousands of people conspiring to illegally record all of these conversations...It would have been prosecuted long ago.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to spend billions of dollars to do something illegal. They would have 0 prosecutions for every billion dollars spent...
Quote:
Plus, you should look at the source. That "former fbi counterintelligence agent" is a writer/actor/producer/tech consultant in Hollywood. He has a penchant for fiction and a need for publicity. It's safe to assume he's full of shit.
Yes good point.
Quote:
P.S. Doesn't this thread belong in the conspiracy forum?
It could go there.
Quote:
Byrain said: And the government has never lied before, nope, they're too honest for that!
Have you caught them in any recent lies?
If so, please let us know what they are lying about!
|
Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#18226641 - 05/07/13 11:12 AM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Byrain said: And the government has never lied before, nope, they're too honest for that!
Have you caught them in any recent lies?
If so, please let us know what they are lying about!
What else are they going to use those huge data centers for? I'm not claiming they are recording every bit of data out there, but I'm not going to believe they are recording nothing either.
Quote:
Enlil said: I see...so when a former government employee says something, it's true...but when a current government employee says something, it's a lie.
I never said that, they're both probably full of shit.
|
fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: Byrain]
#18227043 - 05/07/13 12:37 PM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Well not impossible. But it would take a storage center the size of walmart. They do have some huge data centers, but I doubt that it's recording all phone calls.
I pretty much lined out how the gov. could record a lifetime of telephone quality audio for less than $80. There's also a multitude of factors that could make this even cheaper and easier than I suggested.
Quote:
That's because you're ignorant of what it would take to do. Bandwidth alone would make it impossible.
On top of that, it's illegal. You'd need literally thousands of people conspiring to illegally record all of these conversations...It would have been prosecuted long ago.
Please enlighten me then! I don't see the technical hurdle everyone imagines. They can easily afford cheap storage with their massive budget. They have direct access to the fiber that our signals are traveling through, and the cooperation of the companies that manage all of this data.
If they had to sniff all this data out with no inside information to help it might be moderately difficult. But they have cooperation from the telcoms and the authority to compel them to cooperate even if they balked.
If they eliminate women and children, which don't fit the profile of what they're supposedly looking for, then you're left with an even smaller task.
I can understand if you don't buy the "they're recording everything from everyone" theory, I can certainly understand that. But what exactly do you think they're doing?
We know they're collecting data right from the source. We know they're doing warrantless wiretaps, so how much faith are you putting in secret courts not subject to public scrutiny? Assuming they even follow the rules of this behind-closed-doors free-for-all... what do you think that means?
Even assuming the highest integrity of our agents of dubious morality... what are the laws that prevent the "buffering" of a lifetime of data so that at some point you could obtain a "legal" wiretap warrant to listen to it?
IME the LEO feel entirely free to do whatever they want. Their only limitation is the legality of introducing it as evidence in court. They constantly use "illegal" tactics to gather information and find the "perps". Then they're free to use this illegally obtained information to build an entirely "legal" case against someone. Once they know who you are and what you're doing it's very easy for them to build a case against you using standard legal methods.
I don't see how I'm ignorant of the technical difficulties. Cops can and do get "roving wiretaps" all the time legally. How is it that something they do legally would be any harder to do illegally, or semi-legally?
I'm not caught up in the illusion that the data stream is so large and complex that you couldn't possibly gather information from it. They have essentially unlimited equipment and expert personnel, and the cooperation of the telcoms. Can they tie data to a phone number? Can they then compress and save this to a disk? That's really all that's required and it seems pretty damn easy to me.
If you can really see some technological hurdle then let's hear it. We know they play fast and loose with the rules, so if there's some iron-clad law that prevents them from doing any of this then let's hear that too. We already know they're plugged right into the pipeline with state of the art equipment, so what exactly is the law that prevents them from saving data that we already know they have?
Do you really think they have all this gear plugged into our pipes just for the fun of it? Are they just doing it for kicks to watch it fly through their servers without recording any of it?
I would assume that it's more illegal to examine the data on-the-fly than to simply record it for later, potentially legal, examination.
This really seems to be a domestic extension of the Echelon system. That system seems to be fairly publicly exposed regarding its general operation. They intercept and record all satcom communications, then have rooms full of agents listening to interesting conversations. Computers sort through the data and attempt to pick out key works like "bomb, explosives, jihad, etc." in order to increase the effectiveness.
To me, this seems pretty well established, logical, technically accomplished, and semi-legal. I recall quite a few news stories expressing concern that not all satellite communications are international in nature, and that it should be illegal to record or listen to two american citizens' conversations regardless of the communication method they choose. AFAIK these issues have never been addressed, but nobody seems to care since very few of them use sat. phones.
All the pieces seem to be entirely in place. We know they have the technology, expertise, and resources in place, and we know they've inserted themselves directly in our main communication networks. All that we know seems to indicate that they have the capability, motive, and opportunity.
Is it really unreasonable to assume that their activities extend slightly beyond what we reasonably have evidence they are already doing?
-FF
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: fastfred]
#18227146 - 05/07/13 12:59 PM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
That's a whole lot of assumptions...
I don't see how assuming the worst of your government is any better than assuming the best of it.
At this point, the only evidence you have are some statements from a Hollywood actor/producer/tech advisor. Is that really enough for you?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 23 hours
|
Re: Former FBI Agent Confirms the Surveillance State Is Real [Re: fastfred]
#18227349 - 05/07/13 01:44 PM (11 years, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Byrain said: What else are they going to use those huge data centers for? I'm not claiming they are recording every bit of data out there, but I'm not going to believe they are recording nothing either.
I think they are probably recording internet traffic.
Quote:
fastfred said: But what exactly do you think they're doing?
They are probably sniffing the internet backbones, saving every packet. And data mining it for interesting keywords and suspicious web sites.
I bet those guys hate ssh and ssl. They probably save those connections until they can crack them. Which will probably be awhile....
Quote:
We know they're doing warrantless wiretaps
Source?
Quote:
Even assuming the highest integrity of our agents of dubious morality... what are the laws that prevent the "buffering" of a lifetime of data so that at some point you could obtain a "legal" wiretap warrant to listen to it?
I was about to ask Enlil the same question.
Quote:
IME the LEO feel entirely free to do whatever they want. Their only limitation is the legality of introducing it as evidence in court.
Right. But if they can't use the info, maybe they won't be so gung-ho about collecting it?
I always assume all calls are recorded and all internet traffic is sniffed.
Quote:
If you can really see some technological hurdle then let's hear it.
I don't think there are any technological hurdles. Especially if they use speech recognition software and save a text file with the contents of the phone calls. The hurdles are legal and human-based - No one wants their tax money to go to saving all phone calls.
Quote:
I would assume that it's more illegal to examine the data on-the-fly than to simply record it for later, potentially legal, examination.
I agree. I don't think the wiretapping laws apply until you start looking at thee data.
Quote:
All the pieces seem to be entirely in place. We know they have the technology, expertise, and resources in place, and we know they've inserted themselves directly in our main communication networks. All that we know seems to indicate that they have the capability, motive, and opportunity.
Yea well at the end of the day, who cares? I don't talk about illegal stuff on the phone. Most of the drug dealers I know solve this problem by using disposable cell phones and changing their numbers frequently.
A lot of my friends talk about illegal stuff on the phone all the time and none of them have experienced legal difficulties because of it. They even use text messages, which I consider highly irresponsible, but they haven't been busted....
|
|