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InvisibleViolet
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: captaincrunch5151]
    #18177324 - 04/27/13 03:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This added to thread post "REAL TALK about 'bulk' substrates."


Here's the real bulk problem with bulk substrates: Energy expense.
Even beyond the needless expenditure of nutrient energy in colonizing over the bulk substrate, there is the high-energy treatment of such lo-nutrient water masses.
I no longer prepare bulk substrates for these Psilocybes, and casing layers are made with the method outlined above.

Although the technique recently written-up in this post is an excellent pasteurization method for bulk substrates and casings that I have done many times, it nonetheless requires 2-3 hours 160˚F hot water bath to pasteurize 7 "myco"-quarts, more like 5 actual quarts of substrate.

Or, same big cooker, 9-12 actual quarts of substrate, 160˚F hot water bath for 3-4 hours. You get more in the run but it takes much longer to pasteurize thoroughly, gets a bit more done in the run but the outsides of the sub may be a bit overdone.

So you've prepared 15 actual quarts of sub with long hi-heat water bath times… And of course, your 7 "myco"-quarts, more like 5 actual quarts, of grain which took 90min at 15PSI to sterilize.
5-7 hours of heat treatment combined!
For, say, 8-11 dry oz yield, done well with solid culture.


My first solution was to combo the grain and sub in blocks and sterilize, eliminating the separate runs for "spawn" and "sub", as a grass seed master can inoc 10-20 of such bags.
8 actual quarts of this sub 1:4 grain:bulk took a bit less time to sterilize as straight bulk sub did to pasteurize, due to the higher temp and more saturated steam in the PC.
16 actual quarts stuffed into the cooker, 3.5-4.2 hours.

A bit better, 16 actual quarts of supplemented substrate for less than 4 hours treatment.
For, say, 9-12 dry oz yield, done well with solid culture.



4 hours at-pressure in my cooker will do 6 40min runs of 8 plastic containers of seed, 48 containers, 16 actual quarts of pure grain.
If each container produces average total 22g dry over 4-6 flushes…. my calculator says 37 dry oz.

Well well.
We have a winner.

Save the world, fruit from seed in plastic!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (04/27/13 07:25 PM)

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Offlinerickjamez20
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18177419 - 04/27/13 04:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

good info, thanks for sharing :thumbup:


--------------------
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OfflineSpiral Climber
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: rickjamez20]
    #18177537 - 04/27/13 04:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting maths Violet however when using Frank's pasteurization tek the heat is only on at the beginning. You quickly turn it off and stabilize the temperature around 160F. IF you don't turn the heat off, you'll end up sterilizing the sub.

This is actually why I like his technique and use it, it barely uses any power, the lid regulates temperature.

You got me interested in trying to prepare supplemented substrate though, just to experiment.

Edited by Spiral Climber (04/27/13 04:55 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Spiral Climber]
    #18177651 - 04/27/13 05:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
Interesting maths Violet however when using Frank's pasteurization tek the heat is only on at the beginning. You quickly turn it off and stabilize the temperature around 160F. IF you don't turn the heat off, you'll end up sterilizing the sub.
This is actually why I like his technique and use it, it barely uses any power




Untrue.
Remember, the total heat getting to the sub will be the same for any proper treatment. How you get there can vary.
That procedure starts out with a higher temperature on the stove for the water, so the stove was running more energy in the beginning. Water needs the most ever joules of energy to increase 1 degree, and of course it's being radiated off the whole time - which is what you're counting on for it getting into the substrate, but it leaves outside the pot even more too, leading to perhaps even more expense doing it that way. Also since the very outside part of your sub chunks goes over 165˚F even before the sub temperature reaches 140˚F more energy has been put into the sub than necessary.


Try this next time, my long-proven modification of "Frank's" tek: Figure out what stove setting will keep your water at 165˚F, and just submerge your sub in that until temp is reached, then turn it off halfway thru your 90-minute timer. The extra time on low is little different than the slightly lesser time on medium/hi.
The temperature never climbs above what's necessary to get the job done.

In the end, there's nothing to like about either, as it's proven to be an incredibly inefficient use of energy compared to that presented here for reasons stated in the last post.
What I REALLY suggest, quit using bulk sub!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (04/27/13 07:25 PM)

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OfflineSpiral Climber
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18177763 - 04/27/13 05:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Ok I'll try testing the water temperature but for that I'd need a real probe and all I could find here were analog coffee machine thermostats (they're accurate but have a short "stem"...sorry English isn't my mother tongue).

I'm definitely keen to stop using bulk and try seeds but I have 20 kgs of rye grain and 20 kgs of triticale grain to go through and 8 bricks of coir so I want to use all that before I make the move. So likely I'll make another 8 monotubs through the year to use stuff.

I'll still start straight grains with casing layer in small containers with the next batch to experiment and learn how to get moisture right. I just need to learn how to make a good casing layer which I've never done. I only have straw, vermiculite and coir at home andI'm pretty sure only vermiculite is useful.

By the way I already got pp5 small containers as you can see in my log (although they're mini-bulks):

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18168493

I've borrowed your idea of using old tubs to host the containers.

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InvisibleViolet
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Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Spiral Climber]
    #18177870 - 04/27/13 06:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Meat thermometers and the like work fine, it's what I've always used.
But you definitely don't need such pasteurization or bulk subs for the excellence of this tech.


For casing, straight peat moss, or nice potting soils devoid of too many sticks/rocks/bark pieces, will work great as prepared in this tek.


In fact, I think it's better.

Starting with mud makes the casing layer somehow simultaneously fluffy AND clumpy, in the most perfect way… it makes for a fine but very aerated casing, whereas otherwise it's fine and not so aerated. Still does the job, but these casing layers rule… Even after the cakes have pulled away from the sides the mushrooms usually grow on the top.

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
I'm definitely keen to stop using bulk and try seeds but I have 20 kgs of rye grain and 20 kgs of triticale grain to go through so I want to use all that before I make the move.



Both of those grains work with this tech!

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
I've borrowed your idea of using old tubs to host the containers.



"Borrowed" it? You can keep it!

It's sorta like calling that pasteurization technique "Frank's tek", um no it's not, he uses it and spreads it but didn't make it. Whoever DID invent it, what's it matter, such a simple thing!

INFORMATION IS FREE :earth:


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (04/27/13 07:25 PM)

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OfflineMaJiK_420
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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18179000 - 04/27/13 10:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I really like the way you think and express your ideas Violet. I think you bring some fresh air to a lot of the other more established ways that just don't sit right with me.

I am going to try this seed stuff out, I have a question though.

Does it have to be RYE Grass seed?

I haven't checked on prices or availability yet, but from hydroseeding at my landscaping job I know I can get a 40 or 50 pound bag of a "Lawn Mix" for 40 or 50 bucks. Is lawn grass or any other grass suitable, or does Rye Grass Seed have any notable advantages to your knowledge?

My least favourite thing about monotubs is dunking. I absolutely hate this method. I end up putting it off for a week or two and blah. Dunking is just stupid to me. Nature doesn't dunk anything and put a rock on it.

Very excited to try this out.

Thanks for the detailed and informative write up

Edited by MaJiK_420 (04/27/13 11:00 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #18180430 - 04/28/13 09:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you! Everyone.
FooMan, PrimalSoup, veda sticks, wildernessjunkie, chopstick, OH1Ogrown, golden arrow, mycomattie, TFPek, Blake_Shroom, smurf_master, Spiral Climber, Sagescruffy, maJiK_420, Zarotti, rickjamez20, bloodkil, wcfcarolina13, captaincrunch5151, Mosey3012, Dr.Mind_BendEr, Monsieur Champi, MastarBlastar, MadSeasonStudent, bassclef


Quote:

MaJiK_420 said:
Does it have to be RYE Grass seed?
Is lawn grass or any other grass suitable, or does Rye Grass Seed have any notable advantages to your knowledge?



Nope! That's why I just say "grass seed". As said earlier in the thread, maybe only God knows why they call it "rye" grass, I sure don't and any similar/identical grass seed works fine.
That lawn seed will be mostly rye grass, with the other ones being identical as seed anyway.

As said earlier as well, any medium/small grain will work for this tek. Rye, wbs, wheat, maybe even oats and more if done right.

'Rye' grass wouldn't have any advantage over its cousin grasses.
However it has real advantages over other grains as master inoculant, and I feel it does as straight-sub too.

Quote:

MaJiK_420 said:
My least favourite thing about monotubs is dunking. I absolutely hate this method. I end up putting it off for a week or two and blah.



Same here. After neglecting it for a while I just pour some water down amongst it instead, maybe doesn't do the same thing, but it does all I'm willing to do.

Quote:

MaJiK_420 said:
Dunking is just stupid to me. Nature doesn't dunk anything and put a rock on it.



While this is true, nature also doesn't often grow 5 kilograms of top-quality fresh fungi in 4 sq.ft. …

I've pretty much proven that dunking is necessary for PF Tek.
Bottom-watering bulk subs in their bags/tray seems to work… sort of, still watching… but not gloriously. That's kindof because bulk subs aren't glorious after 1st flush anyway. :super:


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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OfflinePatriot545
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Re: Don't waste grain, there's a better way! • Seed & Plastic — A power tek & million reasons +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18180626 - 04/28/13 10:08 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Alright, you said something in my thread about using grass seed and a PC and upping containers being easy and all, at first I thought you were kinda joking, I mean, grass seed?

But then I read this thread, and everyone else seems to understand, but I seriously don't get it, how did you inoculate all of those containers? (Get the laughs out now. :P) I know you used grass seed, but how? Did you noc one container, wait for colonization, then spread that to the others or..? Sorry if this flew way over my head or something, every other tek for every other thing I've read I could grasp the concept of, but this one detail, for whatever reason, baffles me. Proof of my noobishness, I suppose.


ETA: Where did you get those Ziploc containers and how much? Online is ~6$ for 2-3 of them O.O

Edited by Patriot545 (04/28/13 10:12 AM)

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18180654 - 04/28/13 10:19 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I read your truffle tek and couldn't help but noticing it's similar to this one. Nice truffle tek btw!


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18180655 - 04/28/13 10:19 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Mycelium will not take to ... manure, compost ... without a nutritional core.



Not sure where you get that idea. Cubes grow on cow paddies and compost in the wild.

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: sansa]
    #18180737 - 04/28/13 10:46 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Patriot545 said:
and everyone else seems to understand, but I seriously don't get it, how did you inoculate all of those containers? I know you used grass seed, but how? Did you noc one container, wait for colonization, then spread that to the others or..? Sorry if this flew way over my head or something, every other tek for every other thing I've read I could grasp the concept of, but this one detail, for whatever reason, baffles me.



No offense, but I'm not sure you read the thread… All your questions are answered clearly more than once, even about the containers.

It's pretty obvious.
Especially if you truly can grasp other methods. This is really just a simplification and maximization of them with far fewer steps and materials with greater efficiency.

Even without reading, the photos alone should answer your questions well enough…





Quote:

Sagescruffy said:
I read your truffle tek and couldn't help but noticing it's similar to this one. Nice truffle tek btw!



The grain prep is almost identical, but past that and G2G I don't see much similarity besides the common factor of my own verbiage!
Thank you!


Quote:

sansa said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Mycelium will not take to ... manure, compost ... without a nutritional core.



Not sure where you get that idea. Cubes grow on cow paddies and compost in the wild.



FUKKEN DUH
Wow.

Wanna know where I got that idea? The obvious.
Have you ever tried inoculating manure, compost, straw, or vermiculite with non-nutrient culture to grow mushrooms? How did it go?
Have you ever seen anyone try such a thing with success?

I don't like quoting peeps for such, but knowing you, you'd carry this on idiotically if I didn't provide precedent. Although some of these are talking about outdoors, or substrates you trimmed out of your quote, the premise is the same.
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You need grain spawn though-the mycelium will not jump from LC to straw.
RR


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The brf will feed the mycelium until it can grab hold of the straw.  Without it or grains the LC won't take into the straw. 
RR


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You can't inoculate manure or straw outdoors with spores-they won't take.  You'll have to follow the pf tek(or some other grain tek, but pf is recommended for first timers) and then when your cakes are fully colonized, take them out of the jars and break them up to spawn your outdoor bed.
RR




You obviously spoke to soon, not having read enough… In the tread I even acknowledge the nature of wild fungi growth on grainless manure… they are "supplemented" in their own way.
Quote:

Violet said:
Thus the very reasons that these mushrooms can grow on such substrates in nature (that we cannot use without the "core nutrition" of grains) are the key to understudying how plant food can be used to increase the potential of grain substrates.



For that matter, we want to grow more and better mushrooms than cow paddies can, so it's kindof not relevant anyway.

See my statement here (but don't reply in that thread). If you want to try to put spores, lo-nutrient agar, or well-eaten LC to straight sterile bulk sub in attempt to grow mushrooms, be my guest.
Not up for further discussion in this thread.

Edited by Violet (04/28/13 11:09 AM)

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OfflinePatriot545
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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet] * 1
    #18180886 - 04/28/13 11:29 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Patriot545 said:
and everyone else seems to understand, but I seriously don't get it, how did you inoculate all of those containers? I know you used grass seed, but how? Did you noc one container, wait for colonization, then spread that to the others or..? Sorry if this flew way over my head or something, every other tek for every other thing I've read I could grasp the concept of, but this one detail, for whatever reason, baffles me.



No offense, but I'm not sure you read the thread… All your questions are answered clearly more than once, even about the containers.

It's pretty obvious.
Especially if you truly can grasp other methods. This is really just a simplification and maximization of them with far fewer steps and materials with greater efficiency.

Even without reading, the photos alone should answer your questions well enough…








No offense taken, first time I read it I kinda skimmed, thanks for the big neon "Re-Read and pay the fuck attention this time" sign. I get it now -insert facepalm here- and I shall study this thread further, nothing better than learning something new and useful. :smile:.

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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Patriot545]
    #18180992 - 04/28/13 12:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In the last portion of your bottom watering section you have the cakes out of their plastic containers in a monotub. I'm just trying to clarify whether this was just so you could sooner use the plastic containers or if there was another reason.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Sagescruffy]
    #18181042 - 04/28/13 12:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sure this is the photo you mean, a sad set of MS Cambo genes… but STILL gave me well more than I expected due to the same source culture's performance on bulk. The tech's awesomeness caught it back up in yield with what I had hoped it would do on bulk but didn't. This was my second major experiential hint for the tek.

Yeah it's totally just to bustle along the containers for their next use (for which there are MANY).
They're very well hydrated due to constant bottom-watering beforehand so I don't see that last flush or so go down in yield. I do mist them daily tho.
Many of the 4th-flush photos in the "fruiting" section are more recent examples of me doing the same thing.


That photo is actually the first one I ever took of this method, at the end of my second large round of it (not counting many little experiments and MS culture spotting). After seeing 3-4 flushes from THOSE cakes (all rye grain btw!, not GS) it inspired me to do a more thorough presentation with only grass seed and isolates.
Technically this thread is still in the works in ways, I've got a little full-glory eye candy in store, and one day it will be tied in as the basics of a larger & grander procedure!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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Offlinesansa

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18181087 - 04/28/13 12:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe you didn't read your own words? You said "Mycelium will not take to ... manure, compost ... without a nutritional core."

Mycelium will take to manure and compost just fine. Not sure what you're arguing about, all your quotes are talking about spores to manure or mycelium to straw. Not mycelium to manure and compost.

Mycelium takes to manure and compost no problemo, people have posted a million pics of it. I'm sure you've seen them and I have no idea why you're claiming otherwise.

Maybe you're confusing spores with mycelium.

Edited by sansa (04/28/13 12:33 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18181130 - 04/28/13 12:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Sansa, you must be lost. I don't think this is where you want to be.
You look like an idiot right now. Not calling you an idiot, just acknowledging that you look like one. You're distorting my "claim" and persisting in your ignorance besides the issue being already clarified.
Of course mycelium takes to manure and compost no problem…. with grain. That's what peeps have posted a million pics of.

Quote:

Violet said:
Have you ever tried inoculating manure, compost, straw, or vermiculite with non-nutrient culture to grow mushrooms? How did it go?
Have you ever seen anyone try such a thing with success?



NO you have not.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18181299 - 04/28/13 01:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Sansa, you must be lost. I don't think this is where you want to be.
You look like an idiot right now. Not calling you an idiot, just acknowledging that you look like one. You're distorting my "claim" and persisting in your ignorance besides the issue being already clarified.
Of course mycelium takes to manure and compost no problem…. with grain. That's what peeps have posted a million pics of.

Quote:

Violet said:
Have you ever tried inoculating manure, compost, straw, or vermiculite with non-nutrient culture to grow mushrooms? How did it go?
Have you ever seen anyone try such a thing with success?



NO you have not.





In an effort to "Keep it real"... I think this link may be a good argument here.

In this link Stonesun does a direct inoculation with Pan. RDU.


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14252334/fpart/1/vc/1

I'm not sure if you are restricting this to strictly cubes or not. And I'm not trying to discount the documented progress you've made. This thread is still a great write up.

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #18181313 - 04/28/13 01:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I was speaking in reference mostly to Cubensis but thanks for pointing out that I hadn't mentioned so.
That's a manure species, the same way most gourmets are wood species. That's their must-have and when rich is sufficient for some growth. But they still yield better with grain it seems. That's a good flush in Stonesun's thread, which I've seen, but I wonder of the yield capacity.

I do believe that it's possible to inoc straight manure in some circumstances but the yield will be much lesser for the same reasons my grain grows yield better. Grain is where the real expansion potential lies. That's why my statement, and the challenge liked to in that other thread, stands for achieving half of common bulk yields. Which may be about a quarter tops of this.
Remember, the thread is about efficiency as well, as part of the million reasons for this tech. Such bulks and methods hardly step up to the plate in almost every facet.


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Offlinesansa

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: sansa]
    #18181321 - 04/28/13 01:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Mycelium itself can't exist without having first consumed some nutrients in order to convert from spores into mycelium, so of course mycelium needs some nutritional "core" to exist, just like any other living thing.

However your claim that the nutrients have to come from grains is not reflected by reality.

Agar has almost zero nutrients compared to grains and yet you can dump an agar wedge on compost or manure and get shrooms.

You ask about this mythical concept you call "non-nutrient culture". I'm assuming you're pulling this term out of thin air for the sake of muddying the discussion since any culture is going to have at least some nutes in it.

However, it actually is possible to inject straw with LC and get shrooms. No grains are needed.

You don't need to take everything so personally, BTW.

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