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Anonymous #1

Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back.
    #18154311 - 04/23/13 09:19 AM (11 years, 28 days ago)

I'm not sure if this is the best place to put this, so if it's not, would someone please move it?

Last week I listed a 97 Firebird on craigslist and asked $3000 for it.  A guy from about an hour away texted me and asked what my bottom line was.  I said I'd have to get at least $2700 for it.  He asked if I'd come down to $2300. I said no, I could only go $2600.

The next day, he asked if I would take $2500.  I agreed.  He then asked me to hold it for him for a couple of days.  I reluctantly agreed to that, too.  In these couple of days, I had some other interest in the car, but keeping to my word, I waited for this guy to come look at it.

Yesterday afternoon, he brought his family to look at the car.  He was buying it for his daughter.  She and her boyfriend took it for a test drive.  She was in love with it and really wanted it badly.  I told him  all I knew about the car.  What codes it had thrown recently, what I had done to fix them, what parts I had replaced since I got it, etc.

He seemed satisfied.  We did the transaction, and they all drove off happily.

Today I get a nasty text from him claiming that there is a leak in the intake or head gasket.  If there was, I did not know about it.  Wouldn't something like that be obvious?  Now he's calling me a liar and he wants me to come down another $500 or he will contact his lawyer.

I've never been in a situation like this before.  I'd like some advice.  Below is a transcript of the texts between us today:

Him: This car has a intake or head gasket leak and theres no way you didnt know it 9:43 AM
Me: Wow, I'm really sorry about that. If it does have a leak, I didn't know about it. The last code it threw was for the crank position sensor, and I spent a day replacing that. It has been running fine with no codes since then or any other symptoms that anything might be wrong. 9:52 AM
Him: i noticed a couple spots of water on your concrete when my daughter was taking it for a test drive now i know why. 9:55 AM
Him: We stopped at a gas station and smelled antifreeze.To have this fixed you're going to have to come off 500$ or im going to have to talk to my lawyer. 9:58 AM
Him: all i asked was for you to be honest. Theres no way a person couldnt have known about this. Im not stupid when it comes to cars. We took you for being an honest person. 10:05 AM
Me: I swear that if there is anything wrong with the car, I did not know it. I told you the things that had gone with it in the past and what I had done to fix it. I don't appreciate you calling me a liar and accusing me of trying to scam you. Your daughter took it for a test drive and you were more than welcome to check out anything you wanted to on the car. I don't feel that I hid anything from you or forced you into making a decision. 10:08 AM
Me: I already came down $500 from what I was asking and held the car for you when I had other offers. I feel that I went out of my way for you when I didn't have to. I apologize if there is something wrong with it that I did not know about. 10:09 AM

Edited by Anonymous (04/23/13 09:24 AM)

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InvisibleVitalux
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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Anonymous #1] * 1
    #18154369 - 04/23/13 09:39 AM (11 years, 28 days ago)

Be very polite and tell the guy to go fuck himself.

There is a saying in law called "cave ne emptor"

which means = "let the buyer beware"

You could always tell him you will counter sue for extortion, after all he isn't asking for his money back and to cancel the deal, he is trying to get money out of you by threatening to take you to court.

In some States, that in itself would be sufficient grounds for you to murder him. :nodofunderstanding:

Anyone can sue anyone, but that does not mean he will win.
You gave him no warranty when you sold the car and I assume it was as is.


It is his responsibility to have a mechanic inspect it before he buys it.

Edited by Vitalux (05/03/13 04:23 AM)

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Anonymous #1

Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Vitalux]
    #18155331 - 04/23/13 12:56 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

Thanks!

That's pretty much what I figured.  It just took me by surprise and made me angry that he basically said I was trying to scam him.  I was as honest as possible about the whole deal.  I would never screw anyone over, it's just not me.

Now that I've calmed down a bit, I can see he's just trying to squeeze money out of me.  Oh well, fuck him.  If he wants to try to sue me, let him.  What's his lawyer going to say anyway?  "Dude, it's a $2500 car."

It's only been one day, but I miss that car.  It was really fun to drive.  Funny how you can get attached to an inanimate object like that.  I took really good care of it and made sure it was always running well.

Thanks again!

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Anonymous #1] * 1
    #18155668 - 04/23/13 02:12 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
Now that I've calmed down a bit, I can see he's just trying to squeeze money out of me.





Correct.  He was trying to squeeze money out of you before he bought it, that's normal.

Trying to squeeze money out of you after he bought it is not normal.

It's his responsibility to check out the car before he buys it.  If he didn't take it to a mechanic or notice the dripping, that's his oversight. 

Do not give him any money!

If he contacts his lawyer, his lawyer will tell him that he should have taken the car to a mechanic before buying it.

If he had bought the car from a dealership, some kind of lemon law might apply.  Those laws don't apply to private parties selling cars.

You don't have a responsibility to know everything that is wrong with it.  Most people selling cars "omit" things that they know are wrong.  You played fair, and he isn't playing fair.  Trying to scare you with lawyer talk is scummy.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #18155842 - 04/23/13 02:44 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

One thing you might try is offering to let him return the car, minus a $500 non-refundable portion.

If you were a dick you could also charge him whatever you like for the repairs after he returns it.

He has no legal leverage whatsoever.  The easiest way to deal with people like this is to just tell them to go fuck themselves or simply "Too bad, you should have checked it out more thoroughly."  You'll not hear from him again.


-FF

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18156012 - 04/23/13 03:12 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

Just tell him to fuck off.  It was an as-is sale, and he has the responsibility to inspect the vehicle.  You told him everything you knew about it.

Mr. Bone above was close...it's actually, "Caveat Emptor."


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18156529 - 04/23/13 05:07 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Just tell him to fuck off.  It was an as-is sale, and he has the responsibility to inspect the vehicle.  You told him everything you knew about it.

Mr. Bone above was close...it's actually, "Caveat Emptor."




Yes ....i made a typo on that Caveat Emptor.
You know Enlil, you are all right.:thumbup:
I know I razz you a bit, but that is part of my humor :dancer:

If anyone asks me, I tell them that you're a good shit in the long run :nodofunderstanding:

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18156827 - 04/23/13 06:14 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Just tell him to fuck off.  It was an as-is sale, and he has the responsibility to inspect the vehicle.  You told him everything you knew about it.



What defines an "as-is" sale? Does it need to be stated in the ad?


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #18156847 - 04/23/13 06:17 PM (11 years, 28 days ago)

No.  On used goods, the sale is as-is unless otherwise specified


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Anonymous #1

Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18159843 - 04/24/13 07:58 AM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  I really appreciate it.  This is why I love The Shroomery. :smile:

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18159908 - 04/24/13 08:24 AM (11 years, 27 days ago)

You're welcome. Now go rip off some more people.


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18160028 - 04/24/13 09:06 AM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Yeah tell him to fuck off

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18160194 - 04/24/13 09:47 AM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're welcome. Now go rip off some more people.




Spoken like a true lawyer at a lawyer convention :nodofunderstanding:

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18161195 - 04/24/13 01:38 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No.  On used goods, the sale is as-is unless otherwise specified






My understanding was that there are certain conditions which must be met in order for the sale to be considered legal, and that you had to explicitly label a car "as is" or "for parts" in order for that vehicle sale to be exempt from lemon laws.

Of course, my understanding of this may have more to do with law that is local to me, or perhaps I am misunderstanding or remembering it wrong. I did however recently buy a vehicle and because of this did quite a bit of reading on the subject.

The impression I had was that:  If the buyer could prove that you did or should have known about the problem in question (which you did not make them aware of at the time of sale), and the problem in question costs more than 10% of the sale price to fix, the seller is obligated to either give a refund, or pay for the costs of the  repair.

Of course, even if this is true they would have to prove that you did know about the problem and just neglected to tell them, or that you reasonably should have been aware of it. Again, that may only be in my state, and perhaps my understanding of the law is wrong....


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18161233 - 04/24/13 01:44 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

I've had the same bullshit tried on me. If he has the title now, the sale is complete. Fuck 'em.


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18161302 - 04/24/13 01:56 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

If he knew about the problem, it's fraud...but he didn't know, so it isn't.

It's an as-is sale by default.  If you know of a law that says otherwise, I'd love to read it.


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18161571 - 04/24/13 02:50 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If he knew about the problem, it's fraud...but he didn't know, so it isn't.

It's an as-is sale by default.  If you know of a law that says otherwise, I'd love to read it.







I was mainly thinking of "lemon laws" and related stuff.  Wikipedia on "Lemon Law"



Here's a more specific example of the kind of thing I was thinking of:


http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/consumer/autos/lemon-laws/used-vehicle-warranty-law.html


Quote:

The Used Vehicle Warranty Law protects consumers who buy used vehicles from a dealer or private party in Massachusetts. ( M.G.L. c. 90 §7N 1/4) The law requires dealers to provide consumers with a written warranty against defects that impair the vehicle's use or safety, and requires private parties to disclose any known use or safety defects.

The Used Vehicle Warranty Law provides you with protections and remedies, including mandatory repairs, refunds, or repurchases. It does not cover all vehicles or all defects, and not all problems will qualify your vehicle for repurchase.

If you purchased a vehicle fewer than 14 days ago, the fastest way to get relief may be through the " Lemon Aid Law ."
Vehicles Covered:

The law applies to used cars, vans, trucks and demonstration vehicles not covered by the New Car Lemon Law, and which:

    are sold by a Massachusetts dealer or private party,
    cost at least $700 (dealer sales only),
    have fewer than 125,000 miles on the odometer when sold (dealer sales only).

Demonstration or executive vehicles are covered under the law under certain circumstances. You must first determine whether the vehicle meets the requirements of the New Car Lemon Law. You may use the Used Vehicle Warranty Law only if you do not qualify to be accepted for the New Car Lemon Law.






http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/consumer/autos/lemon-laws/lemon-aid-law.html

Quote:

The Massachusetts Lemon Aid Law allows you to void or cancel a motor vehicle contract or sale if your vehicle fails to pass inspection within seven days from the date of sale AND if the estimated costs of repairs of emissions or safety related defects exceed 10% of the purchase price. ( M.G.L. c. 90 §7N) This law applies to both dealer and private party sales of cars and motorcycles purchased for personal or family use. Dealers must display your Lemon Aid rights by putting a sticker on the left front window of each used car at the time of delivery.




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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18161607 - 04/24/13 02:56 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

For private parties is says:

"If you discover a defect that impairs the vehicle's safety or substantially impairs the use, and can prove that the seller knew about the defect but failed to disclose it"

Still gotta prove that the seller knew about it.

As far as the lemon aid law, that's interesting, but there's no indication that the car in question doesn't run....and it has to fail inspection within 7 days...Besides, that only applies if the cost of repairing safety or emission related issues exceeds 10%  A leaky head gasket is neither a safety nor an emission issue.



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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18161610 - 04/24/13 02:57 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Tell that Prick to get stuffed.!!

  :whereismiddleman:


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: MagicMyc]
    #18163602 - 04/24/13 09:02 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Yeah

Lemon law my ass

No one expects a car to be like new for 2500. If it were new it would be 25000. That's just the way it is.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #18164290 - 04/24/13 11:28 PM (11 years, 27 days ago)

Lemon laws almost never apply to private parties unless there's intentional deception constituting outright fraud.

Most of the time they don't even apply to dealers in the ways they should.

Quote:

If he knew about the problem, it's fraud...but he didn't know, so it isn't.




In most states your protection is almost zero.  Even if you know of a problem it usually isn't covered unless the buyer specifically asks about it.  It's not like real estate where you have to disclose everything you know.

Even in those cases there's zero recourse 98% of the time.  Unless you can prove he took it to a mechanic and have paperwork documenting the problem, and you specifically asked him about it and he specifically denied that specific problem, AND that was part of the sale contract, you're pretty much SOL.


-FF


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Anonymous #1

Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18166009 - 04/25/13 11:58 AM (11 years, 26 days ago)

For the sake of argument, I did download a Bill of Sale off the internet and both he and I signed it.  We each got a copy of it.  Within, it contained the paragrah:

Quote:

Seller has no knowledge of any hidden defect in and to the Vehicle, and believes to the best of the Seller's knowledge that the Behicle being sold is in good operating condition.  Said Vehicle is otherwise sold in "as is" condition and where currently located.




The guy did text me back the following day and said "We went and got gaskets for it when we started breaking it down we found out it was the heater hose elbow that went into the manifold. A 7 fix. Thank you we are very happy with the car"

So it turns out this whole thing happened because he jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Enlil]
    #18166043 - 04/25/13 12:04 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
For private parties is says:

"If you discover a defect that impairs the vehicle's safety or substantially impairs the use, and can prove that the seller knew about the defect but failed to disclose it"

Still gotta prove that the seller knew about it.

As far as the lemon aid law, that's interesting, but there's no indication that the car in question doesn't run....and it has to fail inspection within 7 days...Besides, that only applies if the cost of repairing safety or emission related issues exceeds 10%  A leaky head gasket is neither a safety nor an emission issue.









Of course. That's why I acknowledged those points specifically in my initial post.

I do wonder, however, what would constitute "proof."

I also wonder if an issue would qualify if the seller should have "reasonably" known that there was an issue, even if they didn't know what that issue was, specifically. For example, if it's  been leaking all kinds of fluids, and this was not disclosed by the seller (and maybe the seller didn't even know the problem-- didn't know WHY it was leaking fluids-- just that it was doing so) and this fluid leak represented a major problem in the engine, would that qualify?

I'd be curious to see how something like that played out, if someone wanted to press the issue....


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18166105 - 04/25/13 12:17 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

This guy had no case against you even if he did try to take you to court..!


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Anonymous #2

Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: MagicMyc]
    #18167626 - 04/25/13 05:12 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

I sold a blackberry phonebon craigslist once, it was my dads as he had just gotten an Iphone. He hardly ever uses his phone and this blackberry was in perfect condition. Had all the original papers for it and extra memory cards. Sold it to a lady for $150 and then a couple days later she texts me saying it has water damage and she wants a refund.

I remember her telling us her daughter told her she could get the blackberry flashed for her provider, I'm assuming the daughter didn't know what she was talking about and realized she couldn't flash it.

I just stopped responding.

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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #18167726 - 04/25/13 05:37 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Of course. That's why I acknowledged those points specifically in my initial post.

I do wonder, however, what would constitute "proof."



Evidence that makes it more likely than not that the owner knew.
Quote:

I also wonder if an issue would qualify if the seller should have "reasonably" known that there was an issue, even if they didn't know what that issue was, specifically. For example, if it's  been leaking all kinds of fluids, and this was not disclosed by the seller (and maybe the seller didn't even know the problem-- didn't know WHY it was leaking fluids-- just that it was doing so) and this fluid leak represented a major problem in the engine, would that qualify?

I'd be curious to see how something like that played out, if someone wanted to press the issue....


They have a duty to tell the buyer it's leaking, but not to diagnose and identify the exact issue.  Whatever they know, they have to disclose.  It is hard to prove, no doubt.  Usually, these kinds of things are proven when the buyer takes the car to the local mechanic and the mechanic says "like I told that other guy, the head is cracked"


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Re: Sold a car to a guy, now he wants $500 back. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #18171180 - 04/26/13 10:25 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

I guess we will be seeing you on Peoples court lol


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