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OfflineTerry M
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Spore fall time * 1
    #18139756 - 04/20/13 11:08 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I first posted this on another mushroom site, but it seems useful to post it here as well. I was answering a question about how fast a mold spore falls in front of a laminar flow hood.

A small particle falls and reaches its terminal velocity according to a simplified equation derived from Stokes' law:

v = 2r^2·pg/9n
where r=radius of particle, p=density of particle, g=acceleration of gravity, and n=viscosity of air

I found that here.

I couldn't resist filling in some numbers with the following assumptions:
a spore is maybe 10 microns in diameter, so r ~= 0.5 10^-6 meters
a spore is approximately the density of water

From the equation above, I calculated that the terminal velocity of a 10 micron spore is around 3x10^-3 meters/second. That's very slow! It will drop very little distance moving along with laminar flow air at 100 fpm.

This has interesting implications for a glove box. How long does this spore take to settle to the bottom of the glove box?
3x10^-3 meters/second = 0.18 meters/minute
If your glove box is 1/2 meter tall, it would take a little more than 2 1/2 minutes to fall from top to bottom.

Since v is proportional to r^2, what about a 5 micron particle instead of 10 microns? This would fall at 1/4 the speed, and would then take around 11 minutes to fall in your glove box. A 2.5 micron particle takes about 44 minutes to settle. This provides a rough guide for how long you should let the air in your glove box settle!

This is in line with general guidelines for using a glove box. Cool result, huh?


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OfflineMonkeyJesusFresco
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Terry M]
    #18140657 - 04/20/13 03:08 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

so...blast your glove box with lysol, let it set for an hour and most everything should be settled...cool results brah :smile:


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LAGM v 2.024
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Offlinemycofever
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: MonkeyJesusFresco]
    #18140838 - 04/20/13 03:50 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Good write up. Thank you terry interesting information.


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Patience will help you keep your sanity.It will insure your success if you are patient in all aspects of mushroom growing.When you rush you are prone to make mistakes and all of your efforts are wasted.

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Offlineorison
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: mycofever]
    #18140844 - 04/20/13 03:54 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

very interesting..



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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: orison]
    #18140853 - 04/20/13 03:57 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Cool man.

Waiting time. 7 seconds
Hey they're all gonna die when the bleach vapor hits em bwahahahah


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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: mycofever]
    #18140867 - 04/20/13 04:00 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I don't even use Lysol. I just allow time for everything to fall to the bottom. And I sometimes absolutely need my GB even though I have a lab with a flow hood. Just last week I used it to isolate some clean mycelium from a plate infected with sporulating Penicillium mold. I didn't dare do this in the lab because my flow hood would likely blow contaminant spores around to infect the lab. The GB worked like a charm!


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Offlinemycofever
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Terry M]
    #18140876 - 04/20/13 04:04 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Good point, so a flowhood is not always the best thing to use as described.


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Patience will help you keep your sanity.It will insure your success if you are patient in all aspects of mushroom growing.When you rush you are prone to make mistakes and all of your efforts are wasted.

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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: mycofever]
    #18140917 - 04/20/13 04:14 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Well, like he said, in that case it would turn the lab into the mold zone.
Definitely.
  Man its a good idea to hit the whole space with clorox water.
I use one of those big garden sprayers. Spray bleach water high into the air and on the floor and leave. Come back later  & mop with bleach water. Do it again & its a clean place.

Of all products available for sterilizing air & surface, I advocate bleach as the staple for mycology, culturing , surgery and brewing


--------------------


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love is everything
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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18141040 - 04/20/13 04:52 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I use a couple of gallons of diluted bleach on my entire lab once a month. The ceiling and walls drip with it, the floor is covered with it. The air is so thick with buffered bleach solution you can't breath without a respirator! I let this settle for the rest of the day, by which time there's just an isolated puddle or two of water on the floor. I pushed my luck recently and tried waiting two months between lab sterilizations. FAIL! I got lots of contamination.

Fortunately, the standard bleach treatment restored the lab to excellent sterility. I tested this with plates opened in front of the flow hood for different amounts of time: 10, 15, 20, 30, 60 seconds, 2 and 5 minutes. The agar stayed absolutely clean, even on the 5 minute exposed plate!

Of course, your mileage may vary. No matter how clean I routinely keep the lab, I get mold growth from a hidden nook or cranny in this 150 year old house. Once every month perfectly controls it.


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18141355 - 04/20/13 06:21 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Cool man.

Waiting time. 7 seconds
Hey they're all gonna die when the bleach vapor hits em bwahahahah



Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Well, like he said, in that case it would turn the lab into the mold zone.
Definitely.
  Man its a good idea to hit the whole space with clorox water.
I use one of those big garden sprayers. Spray bleach water high into the air and on the floor and leave. Come back later  & mop with bleach water. Do it again & its a clean place.

Of all products available for sterilizing air & surface, I advocate bleach as the staple for mycology, culturing , surgery and brewing




I use the clorox too.:thumbup: i physically handwash with soap and hot water everytime I use my GB. Then while its still wet i blast with bleach .




Terry, that was a cool little bit of math. :smile: Thanks for sharing that.

And I like how you still utilize the old GB when you have a hood! Thats smart thinking!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: psylosymonreturns]
    #18142640 - 04/20/13 11:57 PM (11 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Man its a good idea to hit the whole space with clorox water.
I use one of those big garden sprayers. Spray bleach water high into the air and on the floor and leave. Come back later  & mop with bleach water. Do it again & its a clean place.




Quote:

I use a couple of gallons of diluted bleach on my entire lab once a month. The ceiling and walls drip with it, the floor is covered with it. The air is so thick with buffered bleach solution you can't breath without a respirator!




Damn!  Your lab is so big you need 20 gallons of bleach solution to swab it down?  WTF?

Go spend $15 on a UV light, flip it on when you leave or for an hours or two each day, and you'll be practically done with your sterilization.


-FF

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: fastfred]
    #18143498 - 04/21/13 07:20 AM (11 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

Man its a good idea to hit the whole space with clorox water.
I use one of those big garden sprayers. Spray bleach water high into the air and on the floor and leave. Come back later  & mop with bleach water. Do it again & its a clean place.




Quote:

I use a couple of gallons of diluted bleach on my entire lab once a month. The ceiling and walls drip with it, the floor is covered with it. The air is so thick with buffered bleach solution you can't breath without a respirator!




Damn!  Your lab is so big you need 20 gallons of bleach solution to swab it down?  WTF?

Go spend $15 on a UV light, flip it on when you leave or for an hours or two each day, and you'll be practically done with your sterilization.

-FF




No, not 20 gallons. A couple means 2! The room is about 12'x14', and for bleach to be maximally effective, it should remain wet on surfaces for 20 minutes. That takes a lot of bleach. And better too much than too little.

UV light wouldn't work for my lab. For one thing, I also grow mushroom cultures in there. I have shelves full of inoculated bags, jars, petri dishes, and slant tubes. I don't wish to kill these cultures!

Besides the shelves, I also have a supply cabinet near the wall. And the wall behind the flow hood and table is shaded by them. UV light works line-of-sight only, so any shaded areas won't get sterilized.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Terry M]
    #18145888 - 04/21/13 05:18 PM (11 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

No, not 20 gallons. A couple means 2!




You said, "a couple of gallons of diluted bleach" which would be 20 gallons at standard 1:10 dilution.

1:10 dilution is the most effective surface sterilizer.  More or less is LESS effective, so if you're using a stronger concentration then it's worse than just wasteful.

Quote:

UV light wouldn't work for my lab. For one thing, I also grow mushroom cultures in there. I have shelves full of inoculated bags, jars, petri dishes, and slant tubes. I don't wish to kill these cultures!




Plastic and normal glass is opaque to UV.  Assuming you don't have open air cultures going UV should work well for you. 

Quote:

Besides the shelves, I also have a supply cabinet near the wall. And the wall behind the flow hood and table is shaded by them. UV light works line-of-sight only, so any shaded areas won't get sterilized.




Having 90% of the surfaces and air sterilized goes a long way towards staying clean.  You still have to swab things down occasionally and practice good technique even with UV.  You can't let dirt and grime pile up as that will shade the lower layers and allow contams to grow.

UV is just a handy tool that is quite effective when added to a proper setup.  It should either increase your success rate or cut your labor and chem usage depending on your current situation.


-FF

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: fastfred]
    #18282742 - 05/18/13 08:45 AM (11 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Go spend $15 on a UV light, flip it on when you leave or for an hours or two each day, and you'll be practically done with your sterilization.
-FF




OK, you've convinced me FF! Now where do I get a $15 (or other reasonable price) complete short wavelength UV lamp including ballast that I can just plug in to 120 volts?

I see lots of inexpensive 9 watt G23 UV bulbs for sale on the Internet, but no complete, stand-alone, plug in unit.


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Offlineforrest
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Terry M]
    #18283988 - 05/18/13 02:22 PM (11 years, 3 days ago)

really interesting tipic, and thanks for the calculations!

maybe make sure you can switch the uv light on and off from outside the room, so you won't get exposed to it


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: forrest]
    #18285841 - 05/18/13 10:45 PM (11 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

OK, you've convinced me FF! Now where do I get a $15 (or other reasonable price) complete short wavelength UV lamp including ballast that I can just plug in to 120 volts?




Here is my quick guide on getting your UV going...

Google "g15t8 uv germicidal lamp".  Click on shopping, that should give you any number of sites.  I suggest the one that is the cheapest source, around $6.88.  You want one that is G15T8.  This should work in a F15T8 light fixture.  I recommend 1000bulbs.com, I've never had any problems with them and they seem to have the cheapest prices.

The measurements are often a little confusing.  Just remember to check the measurements or the numbers.  In F15T8, the "F15" refers to 15 watts, and the T8 refers to the diameter of the bulb and pin spacing.  The other number you need to check is the length.  18" is the typical length for this type.

Always use the proper wattage ballast for the bulb.  Don't think you can get away running a 30W bulb with a 25W ballast.  You can do it, but it doesn't fully light and you'll get poor output.  Many ballasts have a wattage range, so you might not have to use the exact same wattage bulb as the one that came out of it, but normally this is on the ballast and the manual will just list the recommended bulb.

Now go to your local MegaMart or hardware store.  Buy an 18" fluorescent light fixture for one 18", 15W bulb. Under-Cabinet types will usually have a switch on the cord or fixture and be cheaper.  Strip light type will be a little more and probably not have a switch, but they will be metal (withstands/reflects UV better).  They are about $8 and $14, respectively.  Make sure to take any plastic cover or diffuser off.

Now you've got a 15W, 18" germicidal lamp for just under $15.00! (shipping will bring this up a little)

Remember you're not trying to replace all your good sterile technique, such as swabbing down surfaces with disinfectant/IPA/1:10 bleach/etc.  But "LYSOL Professional Brand III Disinfectant" is $9.99 at my local MegaMart, and you can certainly reduce your disinfectant consumption significantly by letting UV do the work.  So it shouldn't take too long for the light to pay off.


-FF

Edited by fastfred (05/18/13 10:56 PM)

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: fastfred]
    #18332396 - 05/28/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Received two 18" fluorescent fixtures last week, and my UV tubes just arrived! They'll start sterilizin' tonight. The two lights are mounted high up on opposite lab walls, and plugged into cheap mechanical light timers set to go on from 2AM to 3AM every night. Cost wasn't critical, hence the possible overkill with using two lights. I just didn't want to be spending $100 or more on one UV light, which looked like a distinct possibility for a bit. And having lights on opposite walls makes sense for better line-of-sight coverage, given the low cost of these devices.

Oh, and I'll still be keeping to my once a month bleach sterilization schedule, except it will take no more than 10 minutes instead of an hour. I'll be spraying nooks and crannies, hidden areas, plus drenching the antique steam radiator which is a mess of tortuous loops. Thanks, FF!


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Edited by Terry M (05/28/13 08:53 AM)

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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Terry M]
    #18334236 - 05/28/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Very interesting. I wonder how effective it is against mold & mold spores.
I have no experience with this


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #18336473 - 05/29/13 12:51 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting theory Terry,

Your results are probably pretty good assuming said spores fall vertically  downwards but have you considered the idea that many spores have a very aerodynamic shape and may not necessarily fall directly downwards, even in a still air environment I believe it's possible that some types of spores may actually in a sense glide, if this is true then the maths you have done may not be so accurate, to get a more accurate idea of fall time the maths would become quite a bit more complicated and would require data from a study of the aerodynamic properties of fungi spores.


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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Spore fall time [Re: inski]
    #18337030 - 05/29/13 06:33 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting idea, inski. But I'm afraid my own analysis must stop here, as the aerodynamics of different spore shapes is just too complex a subject for me to enter into! From the 5 minutes of google research I just did, it appears that at least simple shape modification from a sphere changes drag and therefore Reynolds number. All my computations assumed a smooth sphere. Changing the surface of a sphere from smooth to rough (spore ornamentation, which is common) simply increases the drag. Of course, this wouldn't apply to airfoil-shaped spores, if there actually were any. I dare not start performing wind tunnel experiments in viscous media, or do finite element analysis. I've had some experience in the latter, and believe me, it's not an area of computer modeling one can do easily!  :eek:


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