Home | Community | Message Board

MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck

Jump to first unread post Pages: < First | < Back | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | Next > | Last >
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Invisibleanne halonium
jaguarette
Female


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: ghiajake]
    #18530052 - 07/08/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

side pinning,
is only a marginal issue.
i see few side pins when i use this tek.

the PP5's shown,
have the advantage of availability ,
and, stack abilty, with shape/ size.

one could use any autoclavable plastic container,
but ,im not sure plastic color, would have a clear advantage.


--------------------
:aliendance:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMaJiK_420
...lost
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/30/08
Posts: 447
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: anne halonium]
    #18530142 - 07/08/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I thought it was established that side pinning is caused by FAE, not light, or light as a secondary pinning trigger.
So far I've had more side pins than growth on the top with grass in plastic.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleanne halonium
jaguarette
Female


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #18530173 - 07/08/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

its likely many issues/ causes.

many types of grows side pin.

ive never seen where side pinning,
outweighs , the teks advantages.

besides, without side pins,
what are ya gonna throw to the lab rats for snacks while ya pick?


--------------------
:aliendance:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleViolet
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: anne halonium]
    #18530188 - 07/08/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

IME, side-pins happen so frequently with over-loaded containers. If you keep it light, and have a nice casing and/or saturation humidity, they're far less likely to happen. Otherwise there's not much of a side to pin from. By loading them tall you greatly increase the side area without increasing the top area. Seemed quite logical to me too.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleViolet
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18530382 - 07/08/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gimpyoldelf said:
By the way, I'm interested in adaptations of Violet Tek for a first time grower. I'm thinking of Violet Tek as an alternative to the PF Tek.

A couple thinks I would suggest for a beginner's version:

1. A single silicon injection site in the lid. (To allow sterile inoculation with a syringe without needing a glove box. It's a small additional cost for the silicon, and very easy to make)



So happens I'll be making a simplified lo-info version of the tek that also shows slight modifications for syringes etc. for beginners.

It will involve modded lids (I very much dislike maiming lids, but as you said it makes it possible without SAB/GB/laminar) but I probably won't be using silicone, rather poly-fil. It acts as both air filter And inoc port (as long as you make sure the needle cools first, otherwise the poly will melt to the hot needle and be pulled out along with it), so they can be sterilized with the lids totally tight.

Quote:


2. Tyndallization as an alternative to a pressure cooker. (To reduce the investment a beginner has to make).



Nope. NotaHacker was correct. If you want to have as reliable of results as are possible with this tek, you need a pressure cooker.
I'd never ever want to do any mycology without one anyway. I consider it THE basic ingredient for growing any fungi with assured success without gambling and frustration. Frankly most anyone who intends to do this long enough to take advantage of the materials will quickly decide to pick one up anyway.

Quote:

I think the benefits of Violet Tek for beginners top that of the PF Tek:
- Cost. Going by amazon.com, the costs per unit/volume of RGS and ziplocs are less than glass, verm and brf.
- Contam Risk: PF tek reduces contam from the 4 open inoc holes with a verm barrier. Violet Tek has no open holes.
- Growth speed and performance: Beginners will be encouraged by faster results and larger yields.



(Not counting the 2nd point, invalid) Yes indeed, that's why I'll be making a thread for it soon!

One thing though. Beginners will assumably be using multi-spore syringes, perhaps GLC from grains started with MS syringes, so they won't be doing any culturing. I still say this is a very viable tek to begin with (as it is likely to perform just as well as PFtek or better with multi-spore) but the yields will still be a roll of a dice for those without experience.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMaJiK_420
...lost
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/30/08
Posts: 447
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18531565 - 07/08/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
IME, side-pins happen so frequently with over-loaded containers. If you keep it light, and have a nice casing and/or saturation humidity, they're far less likely to happen. Otherwise there's not much of a side to pin from. By loading them tall you greatly increase the side area without increasing the top area. Seemed quite logical to me too.




Totally makes sense especially since I am still fruiting my first batch which I know were overloaded in the first place because I prepped too much.

The last, I think third, flush, they actually came up top more. I used a soil and verm casing because thats all I had, and it sat there for a while but they finally started coming through. Gonna water em tomorrow or the next day and see what flush 4 looks like.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegimpyoldelf
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18533964 - 07/09/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


2. Tyndallization as an alternative to a pressure cooker. (To reduce the investment a beginner has to make).



Nope. NotaHacker was correct. If you want to have as reliable of results as are possible with this tek, you need a pressure cooker.





You're not the first experienced grower whose said that tyndallization is unreliable. How proven is this unreliability? If it hasn't been done yet, I might be interested in doing a comparison of RGS jars that have been tyndallized vs pressure cooked - a dozen jars of each, no inoc, see how long it takes for visible contams.

I'm more interested in tyndallization as a viable process than as a seriously necessary alternative. After all, you can get a cheapo PC on amazon for $30 bucks, hardly a significant investment for a first-timer who is not sure they want to go all-in.


Quote:


- Contam Risk: PF tek reduces contam from the 4 open inoc holes with a verm barrier. Violet Tek has no open holes.

(Not counting the 2nd point, invalid) Yes indeed, that's why I'll be making a thread for it soon!





Why is this point invalid? Because you're thinking of polyfill holes?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire
Male


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18533972 - 07/09/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gimpyoldelf said:
Quote:


- Contam Risk: PF tek reduces contam from the 4 open inoc holes with a verm barrier. Violet Tek has no open holes.

(Not counting the 2nd point, invalid) Yes indeed, that's why I'll be making a thread for it soon!





Why is this point invalid? Because you're thinking of polyfill holes?



No, because

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
The exposed holes on PF Tek jars are not contam risks... there is a dry verm layer to stop contams and act as a filter.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18534021 - 07/09/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You're not the first experienced grower whose said that tyndallization is unreliable. How proven is this unreliability? If it hasn't been done yet, I might be interested in doing a comparison of RGS jars that have been tyndallized vs pressure cooked - a dozen jars of each, no inoc, see how long it takes for visible contams.




It might work but why bother.  If you look at what tyndallization is (wiki) it involves repeatedly heating the sub over 3 days time for 15 minutes.  Ramp up, ramp down, and wait.  Just get a PC at the thriftshop and learn to use it.

Soaking the seed for long enough to germinate the endospores and then sterilizing them is effective and reliable.  I did a test back on 6-21 with the first RGS in PP5 I tried with some contamed rye grain as well, ran it through the short PC cycle and set it aside.  18 days later that grain isn't growing anything. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHobart Cutter
Strange
Male

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 57
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18534074 - 07/09/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Regarding finding the right containers, I got a bunch of these from azarius:

..and they're alright so far.

I poke a hole for the needle, and cover it with micropore before the cooking. Then I push  though it when I inoculate, and finally cover it with another bit of micropore.


They are not screw on lids, but I don't find that to be an issue. I just leave a corner unsnapped so to speak, while I cook them.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegimpyoldelf
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: PussyFart]
    #18534262 - 07/09/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
The exposed holes on PF Tek jars are not contam risks... there is a dry verm layer to stop contams and act as a filter.






I appreciate the effectiveness of the verm barrier, but in contrast, Violot Tek requires no exposure whatsoever. You may consider it a negligible improvement, but still, wouldn't you agree that holes with a filter barrier still offer more risk than no holes at all?

This why I suggested silicone instead of polyfill for the injection site. But perhaps the benefits of FAE outweigh the risk reduction of sealed holes.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleanne halonium
jaguarette
Female


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Hobart Cutter]
    #18534265 - 07/09/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

that looks viable hobart.

normally i dont alter my lids,
but for those that would like to,
hobarts suggestion, would work.


alot of it is gonna come down to environment ,
and sterile skills.

if i questioned both of those,
id be likely to consider micropore ports myself

as a note, there are high temp duct tapes .........
metal tape is an option also.


we do not use verm in our grows.
part of the tek point,
is to keep it as simplistic as possible.

for a few containers, adding ports, verm,
and other mods, pry wont make a huge diff.
this tek is for small and large scale grows.
for larger scale, the beauty is the rack em stack em and go,
of simple containers and fert RGS.

time is not an issue for a dozen.
its a big issue, for 12 dozen.


--------------------
:aliendance:

Edited by anne halonium (07/09/13 01:39 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire
Male


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18534289 - 07/09/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gimpyoldelf said:
You may consider it a negligible improvement, but still, wouldn't you agree that holes with a filter barrier still offer more risk than no holes at all?



No, because having the holes/dry verm layer exposed has worked 100% of the time, for tens of thousands of grows..

It's just like using micropore tape over the holes, all it is doing is making you feel better, when you would be just fine without it.

The placebo effect...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegimpyoldelf
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #18534318 - 07/09/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:

It might work but why bother. 






I think the "why bother" question is a matter of personal opinion and circumstance. Maybe the money I'd save not buying a PC outweighs the 3 day delay of tyndallization. Maybe the purchase creates an additional psychological barrier (the more specialized tools you need to buy for a hobby, the greater the feeling of investment, and the greater the difficulty to commit). Maybe you're so impatient to get started that you can't wait for the PC you ordered online.

I guess my point is that they don't have be objectively valid reasons, or reasons that you or I agree with. As long as it makes someone not want to buy the PC, tyndallization will appeal to them.


Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Soaking the seed for long enough to germinate the endospores and then sterilizing them is effective and reliable.  I did a test back on 6-21 with the first RGS in PP5 I tried with some contamed rye grain as well, ran it through the short PC cycle and set it aside.  18 days later that grain isn't growing anything. :thumbup:





Cool, thanks for sharing the results. I've been reading through old tyndallization threads and have been having difficult finding test data, despite numerous claims of 90% failure rate.

I think I'm going to try it for myself with the batch of RGS I'm preparing. I'll do 3 groups of 1/2 pint jars with SFD holes. One group not sterilized at all, one tyndallized, one PCed. No inoc, wait 30 days and  determine average time to contam, and overall contam rates for each group.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleanne halonium
jaguarette
Female


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: PussyFart]
    #18534347 - 07/09/13 01:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

we have used tyndaliztion with this method.
we had cookers at the time, but wondered if it was possible anyway.

it can work, and sometimes does.........
but its not practical, or effective for reliable scale.

this tek, as said, is for small and large grows,
a small grow, might tyndalize....a scale grow,
would be very problematic.

fert RGS , is a very bio active medium.
hence, we recomend PC..........


--------------------
:aliendance:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18534379 - 07/09/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I think the "why bother" question is a matter of personal opinion and circumstance. Maybe the money I'd save not buying a PC outweighs the 3 day delay of tyndallization.




Whatever.  That's why there are so many ghetto teks, and so many of them only work some of the time.  But different strokes, and ya know, whatever gets the job done. :thumbup:

You can go down to the local thrift shop and buy a PC for next to nothing.  Mine was even cheaper than that because it was free, but it needed some work to make it function.  So I'm invested. :lol:

Quote:

No inoc, wait 30 days and  determine average time to contam, and overall contam rates for each group.




Sure, why not.  The test run I mentioned also had the Bandaid hole cover I've described before, in a snap lid container.  OTOH rye quarts I've run through full cycles and had sit rarely contam, but because there IS a filter disc up top and it invariably has some nutes in it thanks to blow-through if I wait long enough mold spores will germinate on the outside and grow through, at which point the jar is lost.  Takes weeks though.  Hope that made sense. :lol:

:peace:PS

Edited by PrimalSoup (07/09/13 02:10 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegimpyoldelf
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: PussyFart]
    #18534427 - 07/09/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Lol, as I type this my PC arrived in the mail. My interest in tyndallization is quickly fading. :grin:

Ann, good to hear you had usable results as well. I agree that it wouldn't scale well.

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
No, because having the holes/dry verm layer exposed has worked 100% of the time, for tens of thousands of grows..






I agree it's effective, but don't agree that it's 100% effective. Two reasons: first, the tens of thousands of grows you refer to have definitely had contamination, and you can't exclude the passage through the verm barrier as a possible cause.

The reason why you can't is also my second reason for believing it can't be 100% effective: the structure of the verm barrier offers no guarantees as to filtration quality, as an SFD does. My understanding is that its effectiveness comes from the thickness of the verm barrier coupled with the small size of the verm particles, which greatly reduces the odds of a contam travelling through the barrier without landing on verm. However, since even minor air flow through the holes and shifting materials within the jar would have significant effects on a microbial level, it is still possible for a contam to make it through.

It's as effective as it needs to be for PF tek, and benefits of other filtration methods may be negligible in comparison. But, again, if you are contending my point that it is not 100% effective, or even that it less effective than an SFD (which guarantees filtration to a certain particle size), then I've got to disagree.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineunteagle
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 178
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18534538 - 07/09/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I know you don't innoc with ms... but how long is colonization with ms? I've never done a sore print and agar and don't want to wait for grain master. That would take forever.

Also, how big are your plastic containers and where did you find them.

Edited by unteagle (07/09/13 02:53 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblethelanzii


Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 5,435
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: unteagle]
    #18534575 - 07/09/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)


was cleaning out some contammed containers today.  found one that had contammed a while back.  I threw the grain out and must have forgotten to wash it.  Saw this and thought it was neat.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleanne halonium
jaguarette
Female


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: gimpyoldelf]
    #18534583 - 07/09/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

alot of this comes down to ,
garden engineering / planning/ expectations.

alot of stuff is possible.
mods and variations abound.

this particular tek,
would be intended for those,
with at least  average sterile grow skills.

it shows itself best at scale.

a grow, is often more than just growing.
its about supply, mobility, storage. time and energy spent.
its also about yield and power, and size of ops.

sometimes, its about how fast ya can shut down even.
shut down a scale bulk grow one time ,
and ,shut down a scale violet tek........
the diff , is apparent.

all small grows , are about the same effort.
when one scales up, the dynamics change.

although this tek is great for small scale,
it was designed/ tested for scale conditions (100's containers).
the idea being, assembly line production,
and ,a controllable/ reliable grow, easily supplied.

training is easy for assistants also.

the keys on this tek, would be a degree of sterile skill, and
ability/ environment, to handle a crop of size.

reading back, one will note the cook times are relatively short,
thats one of plastics advantages, and, part of the time/ energy saved.

i know alot of peeps like to play with grows, and mod teks.
peeps are always doing something, and, alot of it is educational and cool........

this tek, is for the mean and direct, with a degree of skill.
and, favors the urban grower , with its supply line, simplicity,  time/energy mobility and stealth.....

when ya grow peeps,
always think of the full picture.
all aspects count.

consider that any exotic bioform is an " invested " grow.
get your return, for effort time ,energy and cost


--------------------
:aliendance:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < First | < Back | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | Next > | Last >

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* quick grain ( bird seed) question for the masters! dodder 3,098 14 07/26/02 10:20 AM
by Killa420
* grain-bird seed XAZIA 780 1 01/10/02 02:49 PM
by ar393
* Seeds, Grains, and more ExtravagantDream 5,139 8 12/15/12 11:28 PM
by Mycopath666
* bulk question Killa_J 947 2 08/26/02 07:06 AM
by Killa_J
* Arrowhead Mills - whole grain rye babyshroom 2,024 13 11/07/02 10:23 AM
by babyshroom
* colonize bulk now? darshan 1,099 5 10/08/02 08:46 PM
by SixTango
* Bulk Tek Beginner, Help! KalvinKlaw 3,848 9 11/17/02 02:43 PM
by Anonymous
* Bulk Substrate Dilemma formico20 1,811 4 01/17/02 11:50 AM
by pj541

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, cronicr, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
102,060 topic views. 15 members, 59 guests and 57 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 13 queries.