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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18407861 - 06/12/13 11:02 AM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
I highly doubt this thing can be considered "disproven", far from it in fact, so the pretense is quite hilarious.
Especially the blue lights thing. I see no evidence whatsoever of it being "disproven", and this thread is not at all about that.




For the record, the whole blue light nonsense came into being 30 years ago when TMC was being written.  A cubensis grow was being conducted in total darkness, except for taking a photograph once a day.  The substrate pinned, therefore it was (incorrectly) deduced that 430 nm or whatever the 35mm camera flash projected for a millisecond or two is what triggered the fruiting.  We now know that cubensis pins and fruits in total darkness, even if poorly.

Best pinning and growth performance will come from a normal day/night schedule with lights in the 5000K to 7000K range, or a bright window.  Above and below that they'll still work, but performance isn't at its peak.  Light is far more important after pinning, since mushrooms will grow far larger and heavier in the presence of bright 'daylight' spectrum lighting.

As for the other point, how exactly is a bacterium going to interact with a salt to produce food for mycelium?
RR


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18407912 - 06/12/13 11:16 AM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Again, there's little to argue about in what you're saying RR, I was simply refuting dude's claim that such things constitute literal "disproof" per se

I have nothing to say about blue lights. I'm interested in trying them to find out for myself, as I recommend all do on these topics and others, but I haven't used one yet much less owned one.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408441 - 06/12/13 12:53 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:

As far as "time and money being lost", I must say, that's laugable. About 5 seconds a week might be "lost" and a bottle of ferts that will last over a year is only a few dollars.






You need to look at things on a deeper level. I am not referring to the 5 seconds it takes you to dump it into your project.

You have every right to use anything you want in your grow. Call me a hippie (which I'm not) but I personally don't want to contribute to the demise of the planet if it is not necessary.

I think you need to go back and do your research again if you still don't think the production of inorganic fertz is bad for this planet.

Here is a link for you to get started that has enough references to keep you reading for the rest of the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer#Problems_with_inorganic_fertilizer

The following is a highlighted list of shit from the link that fertilizers contribute to that are undoubtedly shortening our time here on this planet. So on the contrary Violet, fertilizers do waste time and time is money.

That being said I am not using anything but organic composts and teas as fertilizers for anything. It has nothing to do with how cheap and easy it is at all......


- Water Pollution
Quote:

The nutrients, especially nitrates, in fertilizers can cause problems for natural habitats and for human health if they are washed off soil into watercourses or leached through soil into groundwater.[23] In Europe these problems are being addressed by the European Union's Nitrates Directive.[24] Within Britain farmers are encouraged to manage their land more sustainably in 'catchment-sensitive farming'.[25] In the US, excess fertilizer runoff is classified as non-point source pollutants due to the inability to quantify the amount entering bodies of water and shallow aquifers




- Contamination with impurities
Quote:

Common agricultural grade phosphate fertilizers usually contain impurities such as fluorides, cadmium and uranium, although concentrations of the latter two heavy metals are dependent on the source of the phosphate and the production process. These potentially harmful impurities can be removed; however, this significantly increases cost. Highly pure fertilizers are widely available and perhaps best known as the highly water soluble fertilizers containing blue dyes used around households. These highly water soluble fertilizers are used in the plant nursery business and are available in larger packages at significantly less cost than retail quantities. There are also some inexpensive retail granular garden fertilizers made with high purity ingredients.
Oregon and Washington in U. S. have fertilizer registration programs with on-line databases listing chemical analyses of fertilizers.[27][28]
The most widely used inorganic fertilizer is super-phosphate and its double and triple strengthed derivatives double super and triple super. Super phosphate was first developed by Lawes at the Rothamstead Agricultural Research Institute in England in the early 19th Century.[29] Lawes added sulfuric acid to conventional rock phosphate containing the mineral apatite, a calcium fluoro-phosphate. The resulting water soluble phosphorus was able to significantly improve yields on a variety of crops at the Rothamstead Centre and the Superphosphate industry was born. Unfortunately over decades of subsequent usage - it became clear that the solubilisation of fluorine also occurred in the process and this had the same effect as the other halogen sterilants(chlorine, bromine, iodine) over time - soil sterilization.




- Ferilizer dependency
Quote:

Effectively farmers unknowingly became 100% dependent on 'bought in' water soluble, inorganic fertilizers since the sterilization of soil microflora including its mycorrhiza, reduced the availability of other natural and trace minerals within the soil. This to some extent explains the resurgence of interest in organic and particularly 'biodynamic' farming systems since these systems replace the essential soil organisms so essential to converting soil minerals into plant available (but rarely water soluble) nutrients.[31] They do this by a variety of processes including chelation whereby essential minerals become plant available - as measured by weak citric acid extraction techniques. Hence the citric acid solubility of phosphate rocks has emerged as a measure of plant availability and enabled so-called 'reactive' phosphate rocks to be used as fertilizer minerals. These should not be confused with high fluorine apatite rocks in which the fluoride content performs a similar function to its role in hardening teeth enamel, i.e. immobilizing phosphorus. This explains the oceanic origins of many of these high fluorine rocks (Christmas Island, Ocean Island) since the fluorine absorbed from the sea has prevented what were originally massive deposits of bird guano - from being leached from the coral based limestone rocks on which they were originally deposited.




- soil acidification
Quote:

Also regular use of acidulated fertilizers generally contribute to the accumulation of soil acidity in soils which progressively increases aluminium availability and hence toxicity. The use of such acidulated fertilizers in the tropical and semi-tropical regions of Indonesia and Malaysia has contributed to soil degradation on a large scale from aluminium toxicity, which can only be countered by applications of limestone or preferably magnesian dolomite, which neutralises acid soil pH and also provides essential magnesium.




- trace mineral depletion
Quote:

Many inorganic fertilizers, particularly those based on superphosphate, may not replace trace mineral elements in the soil which become gradually depleted by crops. This depletion has been linked to studies which have shown a marked fall (up to 75%) in the quantities of such minerals present in fruit and vegetables.[32] Explanations for this include the early encouragement of so-called "luxury consumption" of trace elements as a result of their acidulation and subsequent dissolution in soil water, by free sulphuric acid sourced from superphosphate. This mechanism has also been identified as a possible causal agent for take-up of the heavy metal cadmium from superphosphate based fertilizers. In Western Australia deficiencies of zinc, copper, manganese, iron and molybdenum were identified as limiting the growth of broad-acre crops and pastures in the 1940s and 1950s.[33] Such nutrients are described as 'rate limiting' nutrients. Soils in Western Australia are very old, highly weathered and deficient in many of the major nutrients and trace elements.[33] Since this time these trace elements are routinely added to inorganic fertilizers used in agriculture in this state.[33]
Many soils around the world are deficient in zinc, leading to deficiency in plants and humans.[34]




- over fertilization
Quote:

Over-fertilization of a vital nutrient can be as detrimental as underfertilization.[35] "Fertilizer burn" can occur when too much fertilizer is applied, resulting in drying out of the leaves and damage or even death of the plant.[36]
Fertilizers vary in their tendency to burn roughly in accordance with their salt index.[37]




- High energy consumption (what I was referring to as 'time is money')
Quote:

In the USA in 2004, 317 billion cubic feet of natural gas was consumed in the industrial production of ammonia, less than 1.5% of total U.S. annual consumption of natural gas.[38] A 2002 report suggested that the production of ammonia consumes about 5% of global natural gas consumption, which is somewhat under 2% of world energy production.[39]
Ammonia is overwhelmingly produced from natural gas, but other energy sources, together with a hydrogen source such as water (via water splitting or electrolysis),[40] can be used for the production of nitrogen compounds suitable for fertilizers.[41] The cost of natural gas makes up about 90% of the cost of producing ammonia.[42] The increase in price of natural gases over the past decade, along with other factors such as increasing demand, have contributed to an increase in fertilizer price.[43]




- Contribution to climate change
Quote:

Contribution to climate change[edit]
Nitrogen fertilizer can be converted by soil bacteria to nitrous oxide, a greenhouse gas which also causes acid rain. 




- You will love this one, Impacts on mycorrhizas
Quote:


High levels of fertilizer may cause the breakdown of the symbiotic relationships between plant roots and mycorrhizal fungi.




- Lack of long term sustainability
Quote:

Inorganic fertilizers are now produced in ways which theoretically cannot be continued indefinitely by definition as the resources used in their production are non-renewable. Potassium and phosphorus come from mines (or saline lakes such as the Dead Sea) and such resources are limited. However, more effective fertilizer utilization practices may decrease present usage from mines. Improved knowledge of crop production practices can potentially decrease fertilizer usage of P and K without reducing the critical need to improve and increase crop yields. Atmospheric (unfixed) nitrogen is effectively unlimited (forming over 70% of the atmospheric gases), but this is not in a form useful to plants. To make nitrogen accessible to plants requires nitrogen fixation (conversion of atmospheric nitrogen to a plant-accessible form).
Artificial nitrogen fertilizers are typically synthesized using fossil fuels such as natural gas and coal, which are limited resources. In lieu of converting natural gas to syngas for use in the Haber process, it is also possible to convert renewable biomass to syngas (or wood gas) to supply the necessary energy for the process, though the amount of land and resources (ironically often including fertilizer) necessary for such a project may be prohibitive.





And right below all that shit in the link there is a section on organic fertilizers and their benefits... You should read that too.

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #18408483 - 06/12/13 01:00 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

You took all that time to make that post, yet nothing really touches the fact that mine only goes to grain eaten my mycelium. I don't use fertilizer for any other thing.
Wikipedia is the first place I looked for evidence of what you're talking about. I saw everything you just posted, yet nothing that truly gets at my specific reasoning for its use.

In most ways, except for pitting spin against techniques I personally will never experiment with, I'm like you. The "call me a hippie" thing applies to me perfectly, as is perfectly evident by my leading post for this tek. If I yet find a single GOOD and LASTING reason why using such tiny amounts of ferts in this specific way is eco-harmful even despite a proper disposal then you might start getting me to reconsider.
However, pandering to emotional topics like hurting the planet is silly for this, and if you "look at things on a deeper level" you might find that you're being very trivial.

I don't like the widespread use of chemical fertilizers any more than I like the wide spreading of arsenic. Saying that toxic chemicals released into the environment is bad doesn't mean we shouldn't use those tools in applicable and non-threatening ways. Duh.

Unless you can undeniably show that this use of ferts is both harmful for ecosystem and useless under all conditions, as well as explain the dramatic difference that has surfaced for me in my personal experiment that turns on and off with the use of ferts as presented, then I simply will not back down from my stance on this matter.

TL;DR,  non-sequitir.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #18408495 - 06/12/13 01:02 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

I've got to agree with the professor on inorganic ferts too. I started learning about composting and teas when I started growing weed a while back and I haven't gone near inorganic ferts since. They feed plants, but kill the soil they grow in and their production and use definitely isn't good for the environment. I wouldn't use them for growing mushrooms simply because the bad stuff doesn't end up in the fruitbodies. Coffee is a much better alternative to give myc a boost.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408508 - 06/12/13 01:05 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:


I don't like the widespread use of chemical fertilizers any more than I like the wide spreading of arsenic. Saying that toxic chemicals released into the environment is bad doesn't mean we shouldn't use those tools in applicable and non-threatening ways. Duh.







That post didn't take that long to make. I went to college. Copy/pasting from wikipedia doesn't take me long after that experience.

I did it to make a point which is obviously way over your head. Funny thing is it is not that hard to see nor that trivial.

"An ounce of prevention equals a pound of cure"

You must not have children....

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: FooMan]
    #18408521 - 06/12/13 01:06 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

FooMan, Your decision is based on the presumption that "bad stuff" remains bad after mycelial processing and is migrated into fruit bodies. So far, science and experiments indicate otherwise, and we thus use various fungi in various applications for that very reason.


PinHead, you're being foolish to assume any particular point went over my head. I'm not going to say such BS about you simply because you aren't seeing my point either. In this thread and others you have shown me a consistent lack of conversational respect. Get over it, lighten up, go have a nice day outside


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408538 - 06/12/13 01:10 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:


I don't like the widespread use of chemical fertilizers any more than I like the wide spreading of arsenic. Saying that toxic chemicals released into the environment is bad doesn't mean we shouldn't use those tools in applicable and non-threatening ways. Duh.





Actually it is going over your head.
You prove it here.
You don't like the widespread use of chemical fertz but you buy a 2 dollar bottle of them?
I hate to burst your bubble but that is contributing the the widespread use of them....

and how do you know I am not sitting outside right now? lol. :smile:

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #18408554 - 06/12/13 01:14 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

What stretched rubbish. Yes, I buy a two-dollar-bottle of it and use it for years. No, that's simply not contributing to wide-spread use of it for other, potentially harmful, applications, and you keep talking around that. I await evidence that THIS specific use is harmful in any of those ways due to the act of the elements themselves.
My tiny substrates are super-eaten before properly disposed. Your point is trivial and nearly moot; me not accepting your spin on that doesn't mean it went over my head.
You've got too little butter over too much bread here, Prof.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408567 - 06/12/13 01:16 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

I like my food fattening,. :studmuffin:

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #18408573 - 06/12/13 01:17 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

When all else fails, huh.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408576 - 06/12/13 01:18 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
FooMan, Your decision is based on the presumption that "bad stuff" remains bad after mycelial processing and is migrated into fruit bodies. So far, science and experiments indicate otherwise, and we thus use various fungi in various applications for that very reason.





So you're attempting to help save the environment by removing the toxins from inorganic ferts one bottle at a time? And here I thought you were just feeding your mushrooms! :smirk:


Edit: I'd also like to add that I didn't presume anything about what was in the fruitbodies or left behind after the mycelium consumed the ferts. I said those ferts were bad for the soil and their production was bad for the environment. That's enough for me not to use them.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: FooMan]
    #18408581 - 06/12/13 01:20 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

I don't see why you're patronizing me.
Obviously that's not what I get at and you know it.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408601 - 06/12/13 01:24 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
When all else fails, huh.




No, when all else fails, post a pic! :cool:

P hoogshagenii convexa 2nd flush pinset (rear left and right), P pseudoaztecorum 5th flush (front right), P caerulescens Tonilla 1st flush (front left) All fruiting together on an organic substrates under a window sill.

Thats right,.... No ferts, or blue lights, lmao!


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408602 - 06/12/13 01:24 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
I don't see why you're patronizing me.
Obviously that's not what I get at and you know it.




I wasn't intending to patronize you, simply trying to add a little humor to a thread that's going downhill fast with bickering. You may want to copy and paste the main points into your journal and start a fresh thread there. This thread has had more arguing than one of those damn housewives shows.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: FooMan]
    #18408623 - 06/12/13 01:29 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

I don't feel like I've been arguing, however I do see that others have been arguing at me. I just see people coming into my tek thread with beef who refuse to let go of the conversation. I'd much rather it not happen and people simply make their stance known if they really want to be heard so badly, but it's not up to me what you guys do with your freedom on a shared forums.

I'm glad patronizing wasn't your intent, but I felt that you did it anyway. I don't exactly think you "helped" with the humor, it just looks like another jeer at me from a bandwagon.


PinHead, is your point that mushrooms can grow without these things? Certainly you couldn't be so simple? And why even mention blue lights?
If so, I'll simply point you to this thread full of mushrooms growing with ferts as well, and we see that no point was made at-all.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408655 - 06/12/13 01:38 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Cubes are easy to grow. They'll grow on virtually anything. They are like the oyster of the Psilocybe genus. 

The three species I posted in that pic are a lot more picky with their substrates was my point.....

Foo is right. My intention was not to argue for an hour or ruin your thread. ......

I will leave the thread alone...

I'm pretty sure my opinion has been stated.

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18408710 - 06/12/13 01:51 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
I don't feel like I've been arguing, however I do see that others have been arguing at me.




People are disagreeing with you. It happens on the internet. Any time you post a tek that makes claims that haven't been scientifically proven you're going to have debate. That's what message boards are for.

Quote:

I'm glad patronizing wasn't your intent, but I felt that you did it anyway. I don't exactly think you "helped" with the humor, it just looks like another jeer at me from a bandwagon.




I've had to issue several warnings and even ban several  people from posting in this thread due to legit jeering and you are certainly aware of that fact. I apologize if the smirk graemlin at the end of my comment wasn't enough of an indication I was attempting to be humorous. I'm certainly not on any "bandwagon" :rolleyes:


You really need to work on not being so defensive and taking every comment that isn't in line with your thinking as a personal attack or trolling. Not all of your opinions are shared by others.


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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: FooMan]
    #18408736 - 06/12/13 01:57 PM (11 years, 19 days ago)

It's about the grow, peeps. That's what I care about!
Back to grow tek thread.


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Edited by Violet (06/17/13 10:18 AM)

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Re: Waste no grain, use no 'bulk'! •Seed & Plastic• a power Tek with a million reasons +bacteria&potency [Re: Violet]
    #18431406 - 06/17/13 10:27 AM (11 years, 14 days ago)

I'd like to personally thank FooMan for being incredibly patient, friendly, open-minded, and most of all showing that his priorities and intents are of the highest manner.
Thank you FooMan! It's great to have this thread active again!



As a blanket rule, debate about ferts are no longer welcome in this thread. It got the thread locked, and we have access to it again under the sole premise of being good.


Opinions and facts about ferts and their use have been stated. I ask that all readers take from that discussion what they wish. Until there's something new to be said on the topic, readers should as always make an informed personal choice for themselves as to what they think is right and what they choose to experiment with.

In light of PinHead's valid points, I do encourage all people who choose to use Ferts to NOT use them in manners that can be destructive to the environment wherever possible. I understand that their original use is inherently somewhat damaging to the world and encourage everyone to NOT use fertilizers in their soil and likewise. Ensure that your ferts don't make it into the environment as such, so that concerns that these techniques may be detrimental to our world can be set at-ease!


Now let's continue Q&A!
Also I want to see everyone's feedback, updates, and troubleshooting!


Love&Light


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (06/17/13 10:32 AM)

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