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Offlinesansa

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18140585 - 04/20/13 02:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

sansa said:
Have you been able to use bottom watering to take a tray all the way to fruiting with it out in the open? I'm wondering how long I should keep going with this?



I don't do trays or bulk substrates anymore, except some bags I did for photos here.
So happens I've been trying bottom-watering those in their bags after first flush.
Whereas it seems they've soaked-up much of the water, I'm not seeing notable flushing come of them at all.
Seems like my supposition is correct that such subs and cakes have sorta become anhydrous and difficult to water. I feel they take little advantage from it whereas such seed cakes have tons.


Just to be clear for everyone, this thread is not presenting bottom-watering as a hydration option for other methods, just this one.
Whether it is or not I do not fully know and am still experimenting myself just so that I can answer honestly when people ask, but it's looking like it's not much for them.



Have you tried bottom watering a container that's on an open shelf, not in a GH? Maybe in combination with bubble wrap as a humidity tent?

Edited by sansa (04/20/13 02:53 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Zarotti]
    #18140958 - 04/20/13 04:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zarotti said:
grass seed is so expenisve in my country
Its like 4 times the price of rye and oats


Whew! At that kind of expense I wouldn't be getting grass seed, definitely rye or oats as you said.

Peeps, most of the advantages of this technique still apply as well or almost as well with any other grain, the smaller the better.
Try oats, likely will have nice success if you do it right.
The tek definitely works with rye; I've done it on many occasions, all my first ones were.
Even birdseed would do great.

This method is a most-effective use of any grain. The same amount of any grain will produce more with this approach, without any additional "bulk" substrate.

I simply love this grow tech in combination with the advantages of grass seed as well, and even feel that grass seed is the ideal mushroom substrate for reasons mentioned in the post.


Quote:

Zarotti said:
Why cant you use coir or fine straw as casing?



Those are substrate materials, food. They're not serving as a casing layer, just more substrate, and would change the dynamic.
It's likely that many of the same results would be experienced, but I will not suggest using nutritious subs that can contam more easily when exposed, and are more expensive or hasslesome too.
They would make poor casings anyway. I love the clumpy but loose microclimate that such soil casings allow, and the fungi do too.

Quote:

first time expert said:
So if this is to be done, bottom watering, the whole liner in the tubs and trays are out of the picture unless they had a bunch of holes right?


No liners or trays are involved. Only containers in fruiting chambers.

Quote:

first time expert said:
So does this effect the evaporation process negatively or positively? I would assume if the environment was a bit dryer, it would in turn make the water evap. a little faster. Do you still maintain the same mist schedule or do you go a bit lighter on misting?


Bottom-watering mostly takes care of the hydration. For that reason, the ambient humidity can be reduced with these.

If you're trying to get pins to form however you need a high-humidity microclimate. Casing layers allow this to still be achieved in 80-90% humidity environments.
I mist occasionally to keep those casings fresh.
Quote:

first time expert said:
Just a few questions. I have some small trays that are on the dry side and producing smaller mushrooms, Im sure if they had more water they would be larger. I did dunk them mid flush for 3 hrs but its hard to keep the sub in the water without damaging the pins.


I'm sorry, but this thread isn't about dunking, bulk substrates, or troubleshooting related to other techniques.
All I see is a classic reason as to why I prefer this technique.
I wish you the best with your solution, and you're on the right path: Waterworks is a majority of our role of interacting with mycelium.

Quote:

sansa said:
Have you tried bottom watering a container that's on an open shelf, not in a GH? Maybe in combination with bubble wrap as a humidity tent?


As said above, the bottom-watering allows them to have lower humidity as they keep themselves hydrated as necessary migrating water up.
For pin formation, however, you gotta have that microclimate. Casing layers allow it in environs that are hi humidity but not near saturation. With something like draped tent or bubble wrap they could retain their humidity in open-air, but I'd suggest the method I demonstrated in the tek!

In the thread, I show that one can crack and tilt the lids on containers, even after casing, and can let them sit like that as a "pinning chamber" without extra materials, before even placing into a fruiting chamber.

Once they're fruiting, with casing layers and bottom-watering you could mist them quite regularly in open-air and have nice results, but perhaps not optimal, unless you've began converting the whole room to more friendly conditions i.e. humidifiers, in which case you almost have a fruiting chamber anyway.

I prefer a proper humid chamber by far.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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Offlinefirst time expert
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18142300 - 04/20/13 10:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I understand this isnt about dunking. I was just comenting on how bottom watering might help solve my dry sub problem. Im not trying to troubleshoot here either, thus my saying its hard to dunk without damage to the pins. I have massive pin sets and have so many shrooms growing on such a small sub it is sucking all the water out of it. So I guess my question is, if I keep a humidity of around 80% will bottom watering raise the rh of the needed micro climate of my sub level, or will I still have to case?


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: first time expert]
    #18143620 - 04/21/13 08:43 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The following applies only to your question about casing and watering with bulk substrates:
The only time to case beyond initiating into fruiting is "late casing" where you wait until pins are almost starting to form before first-flush then adding the casing.
Using a casing after that point will not be beneficial, or rather would not be preferable over having proper fruiting conditions. You may end up sealing-in potential contaminants in that microclimate of uncolonized material as well.

Standing water will increase humidity around it but cannot be relied upon for pinning microclimate.
Bottom-watering may indeed provide needed moisture but they seem to wallow in it as much as make use of it.
I would rather suggest you do it with a "dunk" mentality even if it's not fully submerged - float them for several hours until they seem to have picked up some weight in moisture.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (04/21/13 11:12 AM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18145480 - 04/21/13 03:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

With the collection of widespread methods as they are, so much of the original nutrition available is boiled away, poured off, heat damaged, straight-up destroyed for "spawning", spread-thin, and overindulged upon even before we get to a first mushroom fruiting. No wonder that it just gets 1 super flush and a couple of quickly-dwindling stragglers of predictable potency.

So you're paying for grain, paying to excessively boil and tea-out nutrition you payed for into water you payed for also but that goes down the drain, paying to heat up the same glass over and over in sterilization to contain amounts of grain so large that you're paying for half of it to be up to sterile temps double as necessary which can destroy it further, then after precious growth has eaten some of it you destroy that growth just to spread what's left like too little butter over too much bread, leading to the fact that you have PAID MONEY TO THROW HALF YOUR YIELD POTENTIAL AWAY EVERY STEP ALONG THE WAY.



I'd like to tell a short story about how I come to these statements about greater yield.

Although all this yield happened right in front of me, due to such gradual harvest I didn't realize where it really stood until I got to playing with a calculator.
It was easy to figure out yield-per-container math, I had been keeping averages around and comparing them to ongoing results for consistency.
Was quite evident already that some facets of the yield were greater than other methods.

What I didn't entirely expect is that the same amount of grain would consistently always yield more than it would when mixed with bulk substrates.
These yields were greater per fruiting space than the same tote as a monotub, but I figured there might be more grain than otherwise.
The 18 containers that fit in these 106qt totes contains 5.5-6 quarts of hydrated seed (somewhere around 5500mL, or 180 fl.oz.)

Didn't believe it myself at first… LESS grain yielded MORE with this method. MORE grain yields LESS using bulk substrate methods, and that's not even counting the extra substrate added!

I had to know how the same amount of grain would yield much more with straight-fruiting, so I set abouts carefully combing all the myco info I could find and read up for precedent.


Precedent was found. Precedent is everywhere.
Quote after quote, fact after fact, stat after stat, and one bit of clear-headed bio logic after another, I found that the reasons for this are obvious, and right under everyone's noses.

Although they're mentioned in a different format in the OP, here's my more simplified version of why other methods destroy our yield potential:
1. Boiled grain has tea'd out much nutrition and destroyed some as well. Why is this done?To make the now-excess water evaporate off of their surface in an extra drying step as well.
2. You TRIPLE the sterilization time necessary for grain by using huge lumps of it in thick glass containers. Such excess heat exposure does take some level of toll on nutrition, even moreso when the grains are already fully-hydrated and cooked before this process even begins.
3. Remaining nutrients are first used for the colonization run with "spawn" methods, only for all of this progress to be totally destroyed when broken-up.
4. Then, nutes are used again for a second colonization run where they're required to expand the mycelium over a large amount of semi-nutritious water mass. Why? Simply to provide water before-the-fact, ignoring mycelium's capability to migrate its own water in the right circumstances.
5. Then, since 2x-6x the mycelium is living off of just ~.7x-1.6x the nutrition, even more is used by the substrate's mycelium before and during fruition instead of for fruit bodies.

And those only address yield not potency which of course increases what you really yielded.


So many myco techniques spread here and elsewhere are horridly inefficient and ineffective. In retrospect it's wild that they have even become so renowned and widespread. So much of it is a result of asking the 'wrong' questions, and thinking about their answers in the context that we already had in our minds.

Come on, peeps. Let's grow more, greener, cheaper, faster, easier, safer, stronger!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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OfflineMastaBlastar
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18151145 - 04/22/13 05:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Are you sure a PC is hot enough to do THAT MUCH damage to a grain nutrient substrate?  Why eat bread then if that's the case?  I am not trying to poo poo on your ideas and I think there are great thoughts in all of it but am only being objective.  Have you in any way measured the actual nutrients coming off soak water to see what its content is to judge if this is the actual reason for the higher growth mass with less food mass?  Also if the protein structure of the grains is damaged, wouldn't the physical form of the grains be damaged as well making them shriveled or exploded and easy to see?  I feel that properly done grains and grass seed alike should not have much nutrients removed at all.  My grain soak water is pretty clean and the wash is too as I get food grade rye seed (and I have literally done 10 PC runs total for dedicated mycelial research so remember that with everything I type)that's already washed.  I am not saying either is better or worse, just that I do not think there is all that much nutrient content lost in PROPERLY done grains.  I totally am on board with faster colonizing times, more inoculation points, more surface area, all of that. The GS would be much easier to be totally eaten due to smaller size, (less licks to get to the middle), so it could just be that in the given time frame the mycelium is more easily able to consume the given mass in a smaller containr container.  In a bigger volume there is so much surface area to cover and more mass, the mycelium reaches maturity before it is able to fully colonize all the grain.  Maybe more inoculation points with more mycelium/spores would be more beneficial, OR maybe using spores vs live mycelium would be different as the slower growth rate of spores would make it able to cover the entire mass before it reaches maturity.  So shortest term the more grains/surface area in a smaller volume yields better results due to the contact points in the area of inoculation, but then long term growth is slowed by the number of grains needed to colonize before maturity and a smaller contact area in the mass of seeds.  In grains on the other hand, the mycelium can easily jump to every grain in a given volume thus speeding up colonization of a larger volume.  Also the un-colonized mass in the larger volume of grass seed would hamper the ability of the myc to breathe and transfer nutrients and waste products in and out of the air.  Maybe I am just high and this will all sound crazy later after re reading your theory again and what I have rambled about. 

About potency i was thinking colonizing faster gives it longer in its life cycle to produce psilo before producing fruit and stopping, kinda like how MJ stops all THC prod when seeds start to form, all energy into the next generation is the idealogy.


--------------------
Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them .  Just a warning

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: MastaBlastar]
    #18151231 - 04/22/13 05:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

very interesting thread, my only quim is this

Quote:

The more fungus matter you eat, the more likely you are to get cramps/sick




Granted there are people that are sensitive to the actual mushroom material and it may upset there stomach. this can be gotten round by making tea.

But what about all the people who get sick and get cramps no matter what even if they dont eat any of the mushrooms and make tea.

Usually the main reason for getting sick and throwing up and having stomach discomfort or more of the bodys reaction to the active chemicals, and it tries to get rid of it by emptying the stomach.

Some peoples brains just dont cope well with coming up on mushrooms. ive never felt sick from eating mushrooms. But i have a hardy stomach and can quite easily eat raw mushrooms (raw mushrooms are hard to digest)

apart from that, very interesting write up


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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Offlinebassclef
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: veda_sticks]
    #18154328 - 04/23/13 09:23 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry for type-o's ahead of time on phone..

inoculated 3 ziplocks of Orissa, 6 ziplocks + 1 qt jar of redboy for future g2g's, and 6 ziplocks of Cambodian using a ms syringe from a sponsor on 4/17.  This morning(4/23) the Cambodians showed the first signs of germination and all 6 ziplocks had some fresh white NYC just starting to form.. It was quite light and whispy looking though.. Will keep an eye on it and make sure it's not mold.. I'll also update this thread with my finds using this tek. 

Note: my ziplocks are slightly modified with a sel healing inoculation port.. I don't think these will work long term so going to have to build a flow hood soon..

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: veda_sticks]
    #18154624 - 04/23/13 10:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

4/2: 4/11: 4/18: 4/22:

Beautiful isn't it?
Now, it's come to disappoint me.
As glorious as it appears with all those large mushrooms I cannot help but remember the typical flushing curve with such a grow.
350g fresh first yield. If the typical math pans out it could produce around 2oz dry, being a clone isolate with dunks and all.

One quart hydrated seed, ~4 quarts of hydrated coir.
Without the coir, that grain could be in 2 containers and change, same culture, 2oz dry. In fact it has, over and over again, and the photo proof is all over these threads.

Must say, I feel that these are conservatively stated in the hopes of not seeming as if to go overboard:
So yeah a big "monotub" is like fiveish of these bags - six quarts of grain, 15 quarts of coir etc. That's a nice 8-13oz dry (at best…)
What of the 12-14 plastic containers that grain could go in? A nice 9-14 dry.
That's not to mention the myriad other advantages of the method.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (04/24/13 01:36 PM)

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OfflineBloodKil
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18156865 - 04/23/13 06:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Well you between this thread and another you made (that seems to be mixed in this) you have convinced me to try rgs in a future grow.  I do however have a couple of questions for you.

1.  What kind of prices are you paying for ryegrass seed?  All local stores I can find are 10+ for a 3lb bag.  I can get it online for 20 bucks shipped for 25lb.  At that rate I'm probably just going to go for 25lb, but am I still getting raped at this price?  (If so I'll attempt to widen my local and internet search)

2.  Probably more important to me, but do you know anyone who has used rgs on oysters etc.  I did searches for it before I ever bought my current supplies and didn't see anything in gourmet/edibles pertaining to rugs usage, but at the same time I'm not so sure why it wouldn't work.  (Anyone who has tried it on edibles (not the psilocybin kind) please give me some input either here or through pm if this question is OT in this forum)

3.  Not sure if its just me tired as crap (had a bunch of lab work/MRI done today) but not quite understanding how you used the nutes.  In following your above methods not sure when to put it in as there is no soak time.  So in following it would I...

1. mix a couple cups of water with liquid fert and then that into rgs tote. 
2. Wait ~24 hers
3. Boil water and add to tote
4. Wait
5. Sterilize inside of container/jars

Or something different.  I only ask as I don't want to over hydrate/strip nutes the GS by a long soak and then boil (what I would think is normal prep) as it seems to be the point you were making not to do in the sections above the nutes one.

Edited by BloodKil (04/23/13 06:21 PM)

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OfflineSpiral Climber
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18157014 - 04/23/13 06:46 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Hi Violet,

To start with thanks for the great threads you've put together. It has been a pleasure to read them and the photos were delicious :wink:

I have started growing in small pp5 containers doing mini-bulks (colonised rye grain + coir/verm/gypsum 1:1 ratio or so). The reason I've moved to small containers is because I had lost big monotubs and I never want this to happen again. I currently have 8 containers (same shapes as yours, some are the short round, some elongated to try fruit in-vitro at some stage...)

I have some questions for you:

-I now understand that using "bulk" substrate in containers is useless and I can fruit straight colonised rye grains provided they got a casing. What yield would I be looking at with straight rye grain?

-If I was to crush rye grain in smaller bits to increase the surface area...would this be contam safe and would it improve yields or colonization time as I suspect? (to try and mimic your rye grass seed)

-I cannot find rye grass seeds where I live. Any ideas what other seeds would do? Lawn seeds? Any seeds? Millet? Couch?

Thanks!

Edited by Spiral Climber (04/23/13 06:47 PM)

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Offlinesmurf_master
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: BloodKil]
    #18157098 - 04/23/13 07:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Recently I've been fortunate enough to start some fungi again, and as I've only ever used the PF tek before, your post has intrigued and excited me to try grass seed. I've attempted grains before but had always either dried the grains out, or used bunk syringes.


Two questions, what brand are the plastic jars you use, and how much less time should I be pressure cooking them for?

I use the Cuisinart electronic pressure cooker with two temperature settings, Low and Hi pressure, I have always used Hi for 60 minutes for my PF jars and they turn out amazing, I've emailed the company and they have said that the Hi pressure setting is only 10 PSI rather than the standard 15.

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OfflineSpiral Climber
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: smurf_master]
    #18157147 - 04/23/13 07:12 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Smurf I'm pretty sure you can use any plastic container as long as it says "pp5" or "5" with a recycle logo on it.If it's pp5 you can pressure cook them for 40 mins like he does at 15 psi or if you only reach 10 psi probably double that time to be sure.

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OfflineMastaBlastar
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Spiral Climber]
    #18158233 - 04/23/13 10:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

T got a 50 LB bag of RGS at a local feed store for 43US.  Look for tractor supply, farm supply places ect.  Amazon has berries for 39 a bag with regular scheduled deliveries, 43 on an individual purchase and that includes shipping.  Literally the exact same stuff RR uses in his videos, I was like WOAH, its fate, ordering that.  So now I have 75lbs of berries and 50 of RGS.


--------------------
Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them .  Just a warning

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OfflineBloodKil
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: MastaBlastar]
    #18158524 - 04/23/13 10:58 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah amazon is where the 25lb of rgs for 20 shipped is at too.    (Plus I have prime so 2 day shipping at that)

As far as scheduled shipment on the berries....  If your not using prime and need it in those 2 days your better off clicking on a subscribe to save (scheduled) delivery.  As soon as your order ships you can cancel the sub and still have saved that extra few bucks.  (About half of my subs end up this way)

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Offlineoxana
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: BloodKil]
    #18158665 - 04/23/13 11:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

so i was reading your bit on adding plant food to you grain water, and i was wondering do you know what forms of nitrogen and phosphorous are available to the mycelium, it just seems like it would be a little easier and more reliable to add just what they need rather than rely on the nitrogen cycle and other bacterial processes to obtain the right chemicals in solution.

i mix my own fertilizers so i have chemicals such as mono ammonium phosphate, and ammonium nitrate available on hand. it seems silly to add diverse fertilizers when you can just give the bacterial what they want.

also in the nitrogen cycle both the NH4 to NO2 process is aerobic as is the NO2 to NO3 process. therefore you would need to aerate your soak water for the aerobic bacteria that control these processes to function properly.

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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: oxana]
    #18159562 - 04/24/13 05:31 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

the first 4 in 4-PO-DMT is the position of the phosphate group on the tryptamine skeleton, not the number of phosphate groups. There are millions of phosphate groups for each molecule of psilocybin produced as it is a decent portion of DNA, RNA, and cell membranes.
Have you compared yield/volume of grain when spawned to hpoo? I'm fairly certain 99% of the time hpoo out of a field has fewer insecticides, heavy metals, and hormones than half the shit in a grocery store, if it weren't for the bacteria it'd probably be damn healthy. It seems to me spawning to straight coir is only really good for "1 flush wonders", as it's nutrient poor and as you said is essentially just providing water and more area to fruit off. With 1 flush wonders there is less reason to keep them around for later flushes allowing you to use the same fruiting volume more efficiently potentially (I'd have to do the math but it's probably only more efficient with very limited fruiting volume but plenty of incubation volume).
You make a good argument for plastic containers, I'm actually considering trying it now (raid the trash for all the polypropylene containers and fill them all with grain lol). Since I spend far more time waiting for my pressure cooker to cool than actually cooking it'd allow alot more grain to go through it quickly. I wonder how long one plastic jar has to last for it to be more eco-friendly than glass. If you used different plastics (anything resin cured) you could put them against the walls without melting.

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: rhave]
    #18160110 - 04/24/13 09:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Whew ok, time to answer some questions!

Hey Bloodkil!
Quote:

BloodKil said:
What kind of prices are you paying for ryegrass seed?



Around here I get it ~65c/lb, or $34 for 50lb, from feed stores. That's the cheapest I've found it here, most other places like corporate hardware/garden stores are a bit more but offer decent prices.
I do not know any specifics about any company's product or whether they're safe for this or not. Read labels, everyone

Quote:

BloodKil said:
Probably more important to me, but do you know anyone who has used rgs on oysters etc.
(Anyone who has tried it on edibles (not the psilocybin kind) please give me some input either here or through pm if this question is OT in this forum)



Yes, I do know someone who's now used it for the edibles they grow :wink:
They work great. I use at most 1/8th of the jars now for myco applications, thanks to grass seed and plastic.

Oysters nor Shiitake nor others seem like they'd have grain or seed as a common natural food. Yet they take to our highly-nutritious grains as "spawn" easily.
Grass seed would NOT make a most-effective straight sub for these edible species however. I bet most of them wouldn't fruit properly or at all, and the ones that would may not do well, and even if so it's not the most effective way to use the grain for those species.
For instance, Shiitake only mutates above a certain level of grain supplementation in its substrates.

However, having a great and reliable prep for the seed makes it beyond worthwhile to use RGS for low-ratio inocs instead, making each jar last 3-4 times as long as a "master" inoc source!

Quote:

BloodKil said:
not quite understanding how you used the nutes.  In following your above methods not sure when to put it in as there is no soak time.



Its brief mention is spread-out in the appropriate parts, adding to the boiling water for seed prep, and heat-stunt periods in growing from grass seed in plastic.

The plant food is added to the water when it's made to boil, before the pour onto the grains.
Doing such is useless without allowing the bacteria to process it, as mycelium cannot otherwise use the added components. For that reason, 2 periods of at least 24-hours are allowed to pass after the boil pour, with another heating session (I have been microwaving 6-7 minutes for this, others would boil similarly etc.) in-between those two periods.
If you wait too long however your grains will start to smell a bit sour-sweet with bacteria. This is not BAD per-se, you'll learn the flow to sterilize beforehand, but it may be good to add 5-10 minutes to your sterilization time to account for the extra bacterial presence.

Quote:

BloodKil said:
I don't want to over hydrate/strip nutes the GS by a long soak and then boil (what I would think is normal prep) as it seems to be the point you were making not to do in the sections above the nutes one.



I don't blame you. With the seed prep outlined here, you don't have to worry about that.

For what it's worth, though, most people do just that with their grains and grow mushrooms nonetheless. You won't get what the mushroom community thinks is poor results with such over-leaching of the grains, you'll get their same results. I simply wasn't happy with those results and chose to retain my expensive grain's nutritious content as much as I could.


Hey Spiral Climber!
Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
The reason I've moved to small containers is because I had lost big monotubs and I never want this to happen again.



Me too; me either.

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
I now understand that using "bulk" substrate in containers is useless and I can fruit straight colonised rye grains provided they got a casing. What yield would I be looking at with straight rye grain?



Dunno. Depends on how well you do and your culture. I can say that rye, millet, milo, wheat berries, all will produce more with this method than with other methods.

It is my opinion that grass seed is a more optimal substrate, but cannot yet back this up with yield proof beyond what's it's been proven to me personally.
For the most part you can guess for the same range of yield with any proper grain. Grass seed is my preference not directly because of yield but moreso the other many advantages.

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
If I was to crush rye grain in smaller bits to increase the surface area...would this be contam safe and would it improve yields or colonization time as I suspect? (to try and mimic your rye grass seed)



I really don't entirely know, no experience with that, nor interest.
It won't effect contams, it's doubtful that it will improve colonization time unless you use the whole agar-shake thing like I do for "master" inoc jars, and I also doubt it will make yield any greater.

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
I cannot find rye grass seeds where I live. Any ideas what other seeds would do? Lawn seeds? Any seeds? Millet? Couch?



LAWN SEED is grass seed, probably the exact stuff you're looking for.
If you cannot find "rye" grass, then drop the "rye" from your quests. Maybe only God knows why they use that word, I sure don't, and every grass seed mix I've ever gotten with 2-5 different "kinds" of grass has looked and worked entirely identically.
As said above, you can use any grain. Millet, milo, rye, wheat. Even corn but I wouldn't suggest it.
Couch might work with long pasteurization and a high spawn ratio :wink:


Hey smurf_master!
Quote:

smurf_master said:
Two questions, what brand are the plastic jars you use, and how much less time should I be pressure cooking them for? I use the Cuisinart electronic pressure cooker with two temperature settings, Low and Hi pressure, I have always used Hi for 60 minutes for my PF jars and they turn out amazing, I've emailed the company and they have said that the Hi pressure setting is only 10 PSI rather than the standard 15.



Ziploc 'twist-n-loc' containers. Anything screw-top will work as long as it has a 5 in the recycling code, denoted inside a triangle of arrows on the bottom of all plastic containers.

How long to PC is quite a question especially for you. With 6-8 of these containers in my PC I run it at 15PSI for 35-45 minutes. With a similar load you'd probably need to run the cooker 50-65 minutes to be sure. You need to experiment and see what happens, or read up more on the findings of common sterilization times at different pressure because I know not, then compare them to the difference in times that I display using 15PSI. I suppose that the ratio should hold true for you as well.


--------------------
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Edited by Violet (04/24/13 09:41 AM)

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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18160115 - 04/24/13 09:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Hey again oxana!
Quote:

oxana said:
so i was reading your bit on adding plant food to you grain water, and i was wondering do you know what forms of nitrogen and phosphorous are available to the mycelium



Supposedly none or nearly none of them are available to mycelium as-is. Hence, the bacterial 'pre-ferment'

Quote:

oxana said:
it just seems like it would be a little easier and more reliable to add just what they need rather than rely on the nitrogen cycle and other bacterial processes to obtain the right chemicals in solution.



Well sure it does. However if it were feasible we'd have long since figured out what to add and would have been doing it by now.
There's no magic additive that contains all the goodies that mycelium need. Grain has it most, but benefits from an increase in these particular elements. The mycelium cannot use those elements as they're just floating around with the water that's soaked inside the grains. Without bacterial handling, those components are pretty much useless to mycelium.

Quote:

oxana said:
i mix my own fertilizers so i have chemicals such as mono ammonium phosphate, and ammonium nitrate available on hand. it seems silly to add diverse fertilizers when you can just give the bacterial what they want.



If you know what the bacteria want which results in the target compounds for mycelium, then great! I'd be emphatic to hear which ones in particular seem to be doing the job! Indeed we can then trim the fat on what's added.

With my current knowledge and with what I think is the current metabolical knowledge about these many various organisms, the "shotgun effect" is what we'll have to go with for now and anything that's added that's not used is definitely not a problem.

Quote:

oxana said:
also in the nitrogen cycle both the NH4 to NO2 process is aerobic as is the NO2 to NO3 process. therefore you would need to aerate your soak water for the aerobic bacteria that control these processes to function properly.



Thank you for mentioning this.
It's worth noting that this ferment period as I instruct is not done with the grains underwater, but instead sitting in a tote non-submerged with water then loaded in containers.

Would take some time to determine if keeping "fermenting" grains in enclosed containers stifles such an ability. I have been keeping mine in their containers closed so I'll let them breathe more due to your statement.
Without facts yet to determine the degree to which such preference would effect this practise, I'll aire on the side of logic regarding present knowledge. Thanks again.


Hey rhave!
Quote:

rhave said:
Have you compared yield/volume of grain when spawned to hpoo?



Yes. ANY bulk substrate will dilute the potential of grain for reasons outlined in the thread.

For this reason I don't care to discuss the relative nutrient compost of coir, poo, compost, any. Especially since the content of poo or compost will be different every time.
What matters is that all of those substrates are so low on nutrition that we can totally get-by on pasteurization alone. You cannot do that with any TRUE foods (grain) which are capable of sustaining full flushes on their own. For me, this means anything that can be pasteurized will drain away grain's power.
This is only relative to Psilocybes, "bulk" substrates are important if not necessary for optimal cultivation of edibles.

Quote:

rhave said:
I'm fairly certain 99% of the time hpoo out of a field has fewer insecticides, heavy metals, and hormones than half the shit in a grocery store, if it weren't for the bacteria it'd probably be damn healthy.



Why are you so certain? Every farmer, field, feed and cow will be different. Even with such good odds as you guess it's still a roll of the die, and I don't roll die on that.
Quote:

Violet said:
Frankly, without a metals scan, pesticides scan, antibiotics scan, hormones scan, & parasite scan, you cannot convince me that your field manure or compost is totally food-safe. That's one of the few things not up for discussion with me as it'd go nowhere.




The bacteria would be the GOOD part, too, detoxifying the manure and composting-in usable compounds.


Quote:

rhave said:
It seems to me spawning to straight coir is only really good for "1 flush wonders", as it's nutrient poor and as you said is essentially just providing water and more area to fruit off.



I don't think its notably more nutrient poor or rich than any manure or compost. I had great experiences with coir, no different than any other bulk sub except that it was much more pleasant to work with.
The 1 flush wonder is due to the immense drain on grain content before that flush even occurs, not the nutrient lack of the coir.

Quote:

rhave said:
With 1 flush wonders there is less reason to keep them around for later flushes allowing you to use the same fruiting volume more efficiently potentially



That's for sure. Some people view this as a plus, cycling their grows more quickly, but it FURTHER WASTES THOSE GRAINS POTENTIAL. Such methods are wasteful every step of the way, this is another example.
Another of countless reasons to abandon the 'bulks'

Quote:

rhave said:
You make a good argument for plastic containers, I'm actually considering trying it now (raid the trash for all the polypropylene containers and fill them all with grain lol). Since I spend far more time waiting for my pressure cooker to cool than actually cooking it'd allow alot more grain to go through it quickly.



That it does! You can even handle the plastic containers right-out of the cooker with bare hands once pressure has dropped, due to the lip of plastic that come off from around the lid which cools very quickly.

Quote:

rhave said:
I wonder how long one plastic jar has to last for it to be more eco-friendly than glass.



1 sterilization run.
After just 1 pressure cooker run it has consumed FAR less energy than a glass jar.

At first, I was averse to plastic. Used to be a glass fanatic because it's made from sand not oils. However I realized I wasn't doing the world nor myself as big of a favor as I thought.

These plastics (1) require less heat to create (2) are unbreakable and thus will not be lost as long as used properly (3) are not harmful even when broken, and glass is extremely dangerous (4) are very thin and pass heat quickly, reducing sterilization times both due to the quick passage of heat and due to hardly holding any heat themselves; glass holds TONS of heat meaning that you are paying for stove power to slowly dissipate off your glass for no reason.

Quote:

rhave said:
If you used different plastics (anything resin cured) you could put them against the walls without melting.



The potential of melting is only for those who have not yet mastered the subtleties of pressure-cooking or that run their cookers too hot too long.
I've had these containers up against the side on several occasions and didn't melt them. However, that one run during toking with the stove on HI too long, and there they go, melty.
I just avoid it altogether by keeping them off the sides.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (04/24/13 09:35 AM)

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Re: Grass Seed & Plastic, Myco Match from Heaven. How I grow mushi & the million reasons why. +Potency [Re: Violet]
    #18160148 - 04/24/13 09:37 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You are the best man, you've given me a 2nd wind to finally graduate from pf cakes, and move up in the fungi world. Thanks for all the useful information and time you've taken to spread it.

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