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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,214
Loc: Lost In Space
Guns and Liberals
    #1813477 - 08/14/03 02:23 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Liberal position on gun control is simple-minded
By Jay Ambrose
Scripps Howard News Service

Conservatives, says a new study, are simple-minded, to which I say that's partly true, some of us sometimes are, but I would also argue that the characterization can apply to some liberal dispositions, such as the one on gun control.
It's not that there are no brainy liberals out there engaged in all sorts of complicated mental wanderings. But if you keep a close eye on this tribe, you can't ignore its constantly surfacing, unsophisticated supposition that good governmental intentions necessarily translate into good social results.
The gun-control issue is revealing in this respect, for we're always being told that one more well-meaning law on top of the thousands in existence will somehow be the one that does the trick. The logic seems to be that the proposed law, whatever it is, will in fact shrink the number of guns that find their way into suicidal, irresponsible or criminal hands, and that the number of gun deaths will thereby be reduced as well.
The truth, as John Lott has shown, is more nearly the opposite. Spread the guns around. Therein lies death reduction.
Lott, a tall, thin, intense-seeming man I visited with the other day, is an economist who has taught at prestige universities such as Yale and is now a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. To an extent few can have matched, he has amassed and analyzed data about gun use, and he has provided empirical evidence that the liberal formula is hokum.
His books ? "More Guns, Less Crime" and "The Bias Against Guns" ? use charts and statistics to make the case that gun-control laws are ineffectual and worse. They do not reduce crime or killings. They have the opposite effect. After tough new gun laws were enacted in England, violent crime took off as if headed for the moon. According to Lott, a better way to address crime is through laws making it legal and relatively easy for average citizens to carry concealed weapons.
Counterintuitive? It may seem that way, Lott tells us in the book on gun bias, because media so seldom report on the endless incidents in which citizens avert crime by brandishing a gun and scaring off the bad guy. He makes the obvious point that those who obey gun-control laws are not criminals but people who abide by the law. Disarm the populace, and the armed criminals have fewer disincentives to do their damage. Make it easier for citizens to have guns, and the would-be robber or mugger has something to worry about. The upshot: Laws allowing concealed-weapons reduce crime.
Some liberals don't like it when you pop their balloons, and the attack on Lott has been as relentless as it has been reckless and mean-spirited. It has been implied that he used fake data for one assertion, when in truth he made it immediately clear to colleagues that some data had been lost after a computer crash, spelled out how it could be replicated and has since replicated it himself.
There also has been a responsible response to him and other social scientists whose research supports his, namely research arriving at a different conclusion about the consequences of concealed-weapons laws. But this conclusion, which Lott says is based on a flawed reading of the data, is not quite so different as Lott's opponents might hope. Even these researchers agree you cannot deduce from the data that the concealed-weapons laws lead to significant increases in crime.
Based on the evidence, the liberals are mistaken in their gun-control enthusiasms, and the same is the case with any number of their ideas about pressing governmental buttons here and getting desired outcomes over there. Creating better living standards for the poor is not as easy as passing minimum wage laws that may actually lead to fewer work opportunities, for instance. Such laws are simple-minded.
Something else that appears simple-minded is the study that portrayed conservatives as simple-minded. It also called conservatives rigid, intolerant of just about everything but inequality, fear-ridden, angry, pessimistic and, well, you might not want your daughter marrying one of them.
I haven't laid my hands on the report yet, but I know from articles on it that the authors define conservatism in such a way as to allow them to lump President Ronald Reagan with Adolph Hitler, and that while the authors must see themselves as capable of rational observation, they think those with different outlooks are captives of non-rational psychological forces. Sounds ad hominem to me. Sounds simplistic.
I wonder how these guys stand on gun control.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jay Ambrose is director of editorial policy for Scripps Howard Newspapers. He may be reached at ambrosej@shns.com.



Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1813576 - 08/14/03 02:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"Liberal position on gun control is simple-minded"

you don't say...


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OfflineFileSoup
member
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 142
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1813635 - 08/14/03 03:07 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

By the way OUR tax dollars paid for that study that the liberals at Cal Berkley did to conclude that conservatives are simple minded. It cost more than a million dollars. Liberals should be embarrased by this study... yet somehow it's not surprising they are not.

What would really reduce crime is not pass more guns laws but pass laws that say if you have a unregistered gun you are going to jail for 5 years. Also if you commit a robbery or any other violent crime with a gun you are going to jail for 10 years. Passing stricter gun laws does nothing when a gun can be obtained illegally rather easily.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1813638 - 08/14/03 03:07 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Personally, I don't own a gun, nor do I believe in their use, however I don't think they should be regulated, except in the case of someone with a criminal record, or their use in violent crime. Why? Because the Constitution say so!! Consider me a "Constitutional Literalist". :grin: 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,214
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: FileSoup]
    #1813648 - 08/14/03 03:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Newsfalsh..... most states already include those laws among the 14,000+ already existing laws.

If someone isn't afraid to murder, how afraid will they be of a slightly stiffer sentence?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: FileSoup]
    #1813649 - 08/14/03 03:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The fact that it came from Berkely is enough to make it a joke. That is like asking Budweiser if the think beer is bad.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: shakta]
    #1813687 - 08/14/03 03:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Ya, UC Berkeley is only ranked the #6 school in the country by reputation in US News & World Report.  I wouldn't trust anything from there!  :wink: 


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OfflineFileSoup
member
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 142
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1813690 - 08/14/03 03:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

For some people a longer sentence won't intimidate them, however for some it will. Like in my other post about guns I said that Richmond Virginia put up billboards on the highway saying mandatory 5 years in jail and the crime was reduced drastically. Five years in prison is a big deterent to many people. Also that person will be in jail longer so it will be longer before they get out and commit their next crime.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: Cornholio]
    #1813692 - 08/14/03 03:23 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Come on dude. It is also one of the most liberal schools in the country. Saying that it would be predisposed to producing such a report is not a stretch at all.


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Invisibleshroomophile
ShroomitusFidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
Loc: USA
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1824121 - 08/17/03 10:19 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Don't really care what they say,I got guns and won't give them up.My neighbors know i have guns in my house and believe i would shoot their asses off if they mess with my shit.We had a crime spree this month and the only guys who didn't get robbed was me and the old man across the street .Yeah,everyone knows he has a gun too.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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Invisibleshroomophile
ShroomitusFidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
Loc: USA
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: FileSoup]
    #1824148 - 08/17/03 10:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Why doesn't the death penalty work then?If that doesn't intimidate someone ,what is 5 years?


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: shakta]
    #1824383 - 08/17/03 11:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Come on dude. It is also one of the most liberal schools in the country. Saying that it would be predisposed to producing such a report is not a stretch at all.




from what I hear, the whole berkeley is still liberal thing is bullshit. says the one guy I know who went there for his undergrad... and he's a crazy neocon... so go figure.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: shroomophile]
    #1824389 - 08/17/03 11:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

....you know... lots of liberals support gun ownership... my uber liberal philosophy teacher always railed on this...


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: FileSoup]
    #1824587 - 08/18/03 01:05 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FileSoup said:
What would really reduce crime is not pass more guns laws but pass laws that say if you have a unregistered gun you are going to jail for 5 years.



Guns do not have to be registered in many (most?) places in the USA. Here in Georgia there is actually a law banning the state from registering guns or tracking gun ownership.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCrass
Explorer of theMind

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 626
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: z@z.com]
    #1824627 - 08/18/03 01:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

" A well armed populis is the best defense against tyranny "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: Crass]
    #1824668 - 08/18/03 01:44 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Not in Germany it wasn't. The weimar republic made a desperate attempt to introduce gun control when they realised what a terrible threat Hitlers 3 million strong armed private army posed. Unfortunately they didn't do it early enough.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,214
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: Xlea321]
    #1825131 - 08/18/03 05:10 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Not in Germany it wasn't. The weimar republic made a desperate attempt to introduce gun control when they realised what a terrible threat Hitlers 3 million strong armed private army posed. Unfortunately they didn't do it early enough.



You amuse me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1825622 - 08/18/03 11:54 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:rolleyes:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: Xlea321]
    #1825858 - 08/18/03 01:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

perhaps some clarification? was it the previous republic who tried gun control, or hitler? cause rednecks (I mean cheap-labor conservatives, that is....) always say that the nazi's "thought up" gun control.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Guns and Liberals [Re: Malachi]
    #1826006 - 08/18/03 02:15 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The Weimer Republic introduced gun controls in 1928 to try and disarm the private armies that were fighting gun battles on the streets of German cities. They didn't have the political will to enforce the law and Hitlers stormtroopers kept their guns.

The famous quote of Hitlers that is often quoted by right-wingers is a proven urban myth.

"This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
--falsely attributed to Adolf Hitler



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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