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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: psilynut] * 1
    #18128451 - 04/18/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

You keep babbling about society as if you have no conception of the individual.  You are already the Borg.  You have not established that there will be more deaths if it is legal.  No more hotshots, known purity, no backyard meth lab explosions, no more gang bangers in the drug business, no more people pursued by cops and put in prison at huge societal expense.  Did any of these things cross your mind at all?

Just because you can't handle a drug doesn't mean I can't.


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Offlinepsilynut
aka Patchraper

Registered: 10/22/09
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18129521 - 04/18/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Just because you can't handle a drug doesn't mean I can't.




  So you dont get much of this then? or youve never done real dope?

http://www.rehabs.com/explore/meth-before-and-after-drugs/infographic.html#.UXA6tLXlY25

Having it more pure does not make it less damaging to your body, its the opposite really. Glad you can handle it , are you the norm or the exception , do most people handle it? Thats usually the first lie a crystal meth addict tells himself.
  Im sure these people and people like them would applaud your effort for their individual freedom. How many days without sleep can you go ? The most anyone has told me is 28 strong, and once someone answered "sleep?" all puzzled. My record is 5. At that point hallucinations set in , not the cool mushroom kind either, its more of the whos watching me from the bushes kind. At that point , I deserve a straight jacket. Not freedom.

Quote:

no more people pursued by cops and put in prison at huge societal expense




I think we could cut that in half just by legalizing marijuana.

Quote:

You have not established that there will be more deaths if it is legal.



No , I established more deadly pills have led more death over the last 13 years. More deadly drugs of all kinds made widley available , dirt cheap as possible, with the attitude watevs your payed to play, will lead to more deaths.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/10/portugal-decriminalisation-drugs-britain_n_2270789.html


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? (moved) [Re: shimishimiman]
    #18130709 - 04/18/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

This thread was moved from Political Discussion.

Reason:
THis is prime Drug Policy Reform material.


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Offlineshimishimiman
Jaded Optimist


Registered: 03/21/09
Posts: 469
Loc: Shmexas, Texas
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
Re: Should drugs be legalized? (moved) [Re: Phred]
    #18131388 - 04/18/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I agree, the individual should have the right to do as he/she pleases and as he/she sees fit - but that is a right that we have always had regardless of what the government claims is right and wrong.  It is not the right we have as Americans, but as human beings.

What they do, they do because it works.  People with literally 0 insight into what really goes on in the Capitol building make wild and paranoid accusations about what is going on around them without even realizing that their conjectural opinions are just that and nothing more - conjectural opinions.

It is your job to watch out for yourself.  It is the government's job to watch out for the population at large, and to make sure the breadwinners keep winning more bread. 

The ONLY drug that MIGHT receive legalization (or at the very least decriminalization) status is marijuana, and that's only because of how many people use it.  It is in high demand all across the board - whereas the other psychedelics and rave drugs are only wanted by a select group of people. 

From an economic point of view, legalizing everything is much more irresponsible than it is fruitful.

So shut those fuckin dreams out of your head - it's not going to happen.  We no longer live in the age where the agenda of the individual outweighs the agenda of the government.  That shit dried up the moment the 18th amendment was penned. 

Unless you can come up with a way to destroy the current economic structure of our government, then the free market will never be free and the individual will never be more than a pawn in the hands of those in power.  Actually, I am pretty sure the only way to really fuck the economy up is to legalize every drug there is.  Only then will people become more infatuated with something other than money.

And that's exactly why they won't be made legal.


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Offlinestevearno
Racky-Tack-Quincy-Bone

Registered: 04/15/13
Posts: 27
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #18132735 - 04/18/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shimishimiman said:
Should drugs be legalized?





certain ones yes .... other ones no

cannabis is ok .... i think joe public can make there own decision with this drug and people can function relativity normal on it

other drugs on the hand ....no .. for the simple reason to restrict supply where ever possible  ( so things don't get out of hand )

i think it is everyone's own decision weather and choice  to try or have drugs .....but i firmly believe the governments don't look at this way ....

population is a governments commodity ... it is tax base and consumerism .... which generates tax = power and influence to a government  ....

if you have half the population strung out on METH going on week benders , and unable to function at work when on it ...then your not going to make your potential tax yield , whilst being eroded by the other aspects of abuse ...
drugs WILL NEVER be legal ( bad ones anyway ) , as governments needs to protect there investments ...

as individuals ..most will say they can handle drugs ..... for a large section , they probably can use sparely and for recreation events only .... but for others it's a full time job ..unable to work as there so fucked up..they then create other problems ( i'll let you decide what these are )

it's ALL percentages ... some times the small percentage can cause alot of damage ...firstly there health , social issues , and loss of tax base ... it will always be frowned upon by governments

i personally have always adopted the ripple effect when taking drugs ......

DON'T cause ripples !!!!! keep yourself to yourself and don't fuck with society ..then they have nothing to complain about and no reasoning to disrupt your use


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OfflineLBM
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: stevearno]
    #18207762 - 05/03/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Great debate.
I have always thought that anything you can grow should be totally legal unregulated and untaxed for personal use and society would adjust.
Unfortunately the government sees us as a commodity and wants us pure and unadulterated for their use.


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I'm doing nothing and have had tremendous success in those endeavors
                                                               
The best government is the least of it!

There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18212016 - 05/04/13 06:12 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

So zappa, I'm curious.  You speak of the evils of having government dictate what people can and can't put in their bodies.  Are you saying that people have a right to privacy as defined in Griswold and Roe?


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OfflineLBM
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: Enlil]
    #18212151 - 05/04/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I do believe that a individual has the right of privacy and the freedom to do what ever they wish as long as it dose not endanger other peoples lives.
What if drugs were never made illegal. Do you believe that we would have morphine doped babies and people taking bong hits on the bench outside the courthouse today!


--------------------
I'm doing nothing and have had tremendous success in those endeavors
                                                               
The best government is the least of it!

There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: LBM]
    #18212175 - 05/04/13 07:53 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know what would happen on the bench outside of any given courthouse.

I'm just trying to get an understanding of this alleged "right" to control what you put in your body.  What do you think the source of this right is?  Do you think you were born with it?  Did you get it when you turned 18?  At some other age?  Did the Constitution give you the right?

I just want to know where this right supposedly starts...then I'd like to figure out the contours of this right.


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OfflineLBM
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: Enlil]
    #18212302 - 05/04/13 08:52 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

The right comes from people being individuals.
I do think that this is a bit off topic but would be happy to participate in a different thread.


--------------------
I'm doing nothing and have had tremendous success in those endeavors
                                                               
The best government is the least of it!

There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: LBM]
    #18213371 - 05/04/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I don't see how it's off topic.  The argument seems to be that drugs should be legal because people have a right to control what they put in their bodies.  I'm just asking where people get that idea...


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OfflineLBM
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: LBM]
    #18213496 - 05/04/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

My last post may have been a little narrow minded and I apologize if I slammed your toe in the door.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm just trying to get an understanding of this alleged "right" to control what you put in your body.  What do you think the source of this right is?  Do you think you were born with it?  Did you get it when you turned 18?  At some other age?  Did the Constitution give you the right?

I just want to know where this right supposedly starts...then I'd like to figure out the contours of this right."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the constitution is one of many documents that have attempted to clarify the rights of American people including what you may ingest.It is a birth right and may be debated as freedom of choice.The war of 1861 was the first well known breach of the constitution and it is unclear if we have any rights granted us by the constitution after that conflict. Another is more of a moral issue or simple human right issue.Do I have the right to interfere with another persons private affairs and code of conduct.The current trend is yes as "I can't get a extra large soft drink" type thinking or the case against Griswold,Roe and private life.
I hope in part this may answer your question.

At this point in time the legalization of MJ is challenging the out come of the civil war in that states wish there rights back.If the feds do drop MJ from prohibition I do hope that further challenges will be made as to there right to govern at all.


--------------------
I'm doing nothing and have had tremendous success in those endeavors
                                                               
The best government is the least of it!

There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
Aldous Huxley


Edited by LBM (05/04/13 04:32 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: LBM]
    #18213692 - 05/04/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that you're not sure if we have any rights under the Constitution after the civil war.  The 14th amendment was ratified after, and as a result of, the civil war, and it has greatly expanded American civil rights under the constitution.

I don't see how your states rights/federalism argument plays into the legalization issue.  If the federal drug laws were repealed today, Heroin would still be illegal in every state, and weed in most of them.

It does sound like your notion of a right to put whatever you want in your body is based on the griswold right to privacy, and insofar as Griswold is still good law, I'd agree.  I do, however, think that griswold was wrongly decided.  I also think that society has an interest in keeping its members healthy and productive even if it means reasonably limiting the citizens' autonomy.


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OfflineLBM
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: Enlil]
    #18214579 - 05/04/13 06:19 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

The reason I state that I'm not sure if we have any constitutional rights after the civil war as the states rights were effectively removed and have been dictated to by the fed in years past.Only in recent history have states begun to challenge federal law in favor for laws the citizens wish . Take as a example Nevada raising the speed limit over the mandated 55mph and of course medical MJ.Many state laws do mimic federal law and the drug laws of years past were put in place by intimidation that is still practiced by the fed.Besides if you were a governor and you believed the reefer madness propaganda would you keep it legal?

I agree that society should be protective of its people for me its to what degree.I do not like being subject to laws dealing with the lowest common denominator in society.

If heroin was moved to a schedule 2 drug it would be in use by Hospice over night MDMA aka (Ecstasy) would be in use in VA hospitals and psychiatrists offices across the country by tomorrow.
To sum up my thought the force of the people has encouraged the state to challenge the federal authority over states authority and through that changes in drug policy are happening.

I can't sum up how I feel about recreational street drugs but would be pleased if they were pharmaceutical grade just for safety reasons.Many of these should be schedule 2 as most have either medical or spiritual uses anyhow.

My thoughts have been formed from a lifetime of being witness to the damage done by these ill conceived laws.We need better rehab programs for people that require it and honest truth about drugs and the effect they can have upon you.These measures alone would have a regulatory effect for any thing you may ingest legal or not.

How do you feel if all natural highs were just taken off the books do you think that with what we know today would we would survive.


--------------------
I'm doing nothing and have had tremendous success in those endeavors
                                                               
The best government is the least of it!

There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: shimishimiman]
    #18247157 - 05/11/13 07:24 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shimishimiman said:
Based on my findings, prohibition was actually extremely useful for the US as a whole because it decimated the rampant alcoholism and alcohol-related deaths that were occurring during the early parts of the 20th century.




Well.. well... first of all, your statistics might not necessarily reflect reality. When alcohol was illegal alcoholics would keep their alcoholism more secret. Since drug abuse goes more underground when drugs are illegal, statistics showing a decrease in drug abuse can  often be somewhat misleading. Criminalization is anyhow usually an extremely primitive way of reacting to a problem. Even if alcohol criminalization had been able to decrease alcoholism, would it necessarily be the only and best way to decrease alcohol abuse? I think it is much better to help alcohol/drug abusers with treatment, and I think people are much more likely to seek treatment if what they are doing is legal. I would for example be scared of seeking treatment if I was addicted to an illegal drug, because then I would need to admit to people that I was doing something illegal. Criminalization just makes things go underground. It is much easier to help alcoholics, prostitutes, and drug abusers if it isn't kept secret underground.

People need to get rid of the primitive "criminalization mindset". Criminalization is like praying. You can't just wish something out of existence, and that is kind of what societies are doing with criminalization. A society might be able to force something out of existence, but that will require an enormous amount of police resources. A society that is trying to force something out of existence will usually just end up wasting a huge amount of police resources without being able to do much with the problem. Living in a police-state should also be somewhat displeasing to people as it reduces personal freedom. It is probably much better to decrease consumption of drugs with taxes rather than with criminalization. Making drugs/alcohol a bit more expensive might also make people use drugs/alcohol a bit less. And some of the revenue from the sale of drugs will then go back to society, rather than to criminal organizations.




Edited by Zanthius (05/14/13 12:59 AM)


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Offlineshimishimiman
Jaded Optimist


Registered: 03/21/09
Posts: 469
Loc: Shmexas, Texas
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
Re: Should drugs be legalized? [Re: Zanthius]
    #18333102 - 05/28/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

shimishimiman said:
Based on my findings, prohibition was actually extremely useful for the US as a whole because it decimated the rampant alcoholism and alcohol-related deaths that were occurring during the early parts of the 20th century.




Well.. well... first of all, your statistics might not necessarily reflect reality. When alcohol was illegal alcoholics would keep their alcoholism more secret. Since drug abuse goes more underground when drugs are illegal, statistics showing a decrease in drug abuse can  often be somewhat misleading. Criminalization is anyhow usually an extremely primitive way of reacting to a problem. Even if alcohol criminalization had been able to decrease alcoholism, would it necessarily be the only and best way to decrease alcohol abuse? I think it is much better to help alcohol/drug abusers with treatment, and I think people are much more likely to seek treatment if what they are doing is legal. I would for example be scared of seeking treatment if I was addicted to an illegal drug, because then I would need to admit to people that I was doing something illegal. Criminalization just makes things go underground. It is much easier to help alcoholics, prostitutes, and drug abusers if it isn't kept secret underground.

People need to get rid of the primitive "criminalization mindset". Criminalization is like praying. You can't just wish something out of existence, and that is kind of what societies are doing with criminalization. A society might be able to force something out of existence, but that will require an enormous amount of police resources. A society that is trying to force something out of existence will usually just end up wasting a huge amount of police resources without being able to do much with the problem. Living in a police-state should also be somewhat displeasing to people as it reduces personal freedom. It is probably much better to decrease consumption of drugs with taxes rather than with criminalization. Making drugs/alcohol a bit more expensive might also make people use drugs/alcohol a bit less. And some of the revenue from the sale of drugs will then go back to society, rather than to criminal organizations.







FINALLY someone responds with something decent.  Congratulations, you have succeeded in making me question my own point.

However, this doesn't change the fact that no matter what the only thing that will cause the government to eliminate the drug laws is if they can make more money as a result of it.  Because the executive branch pretty much runs this country with the indirect laws created by the regulatory agencies, there is very little that can be done unless the people of this country are willing to pool together at LEAST 1 billion dollars as compensation for the government jobs that will be destroyed as a result of drug legalization.

Congress and the plural executive do everything that can to keep their jobs, not get shit done.  Their primary concern has everything to do with prolonging their time in office for as long as possible and nothing to do with utilizing that time to fix what is fucked.

HOWEVER!  It was made obvious to me the other day that despite the fact that our free market is no longer free, with the introduction of .tor and the bitcoin there is in fact another free market that exists on earth: the interbutts.  Silk Road is as close and as safe as it's ever gonna get to the most ideal form of drug legalization for the time being.  It definitely won't be enough to cure addiction or solve the problem, but if it isn't a start then I don't know what the fuck is.


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