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 Rono
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Registered: 01/25/01
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 U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance 
#1809469 - 08/13/03 01:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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WASHINGTON - A group of 8,000 American doctors has called for a national health insurance system, saying heath care in the U.S. is collapsing.
'How many patients have to die from lack of health insurance?'
In a paper published on Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association, the physicians say the solution is to create a health insurance program administered by the government.
The doctors are going up against two of the most powerful lobbies in the U.S.: the insurance and the pharmaceutical industries.
One in seven Americans ? 41 million people ? have no health insurance, which Dr. Steffie Woolhandler of Harvard Medical School says is a disaster.
"How bad does it have to get?," Woolhandler asked. "How many patients have to die from lack of health insurance? How many seniors have to choose between medicine and food before our legislators enact national health insurance?"
Woolhandler is a member of Physicians for a National Health Program, which calls for the U.S. to abandon a "mangled" and "collapsing" health care system based on private insurance.
The group says only a government-run insurance plan can guarantee complete medical care and prescription drugs for every American.
The group's plan calls for new taxes, but would end insurance premiums that cost many families more than $10,000 a year.
Dr. Marcia Angell says the U.S. would avoid Canada's problems, such as long waits for medical services, by keeping its funding at its current level, nearly twice as much as Canada per person.
"If (Canadians) were to put the same amount of money as we do into their systems, there would be no waits," said Angell.
"For them, the problem is not the system; it's the money. For us, it's not the money; it's the system," she said.
The insurance and the prescription drug industries helped defeat a less ambitious proposal in the early days of the administration of former U.S. president Bill Clinton.
The authors of the paper, who represent a minority of American doctors, say they know they're going up against powerful lobbies, but they say there's no alternative.
SOURCE
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1809495 - 08/13/03 01:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just goes to show even doctors can say really stupid things.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Rono
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1809522 - 08/13/03 01:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it makes perfect sense...it clearly point out the flaws with Canadian Healthcare and a solution to make it suitable for the U.S.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1809548 - 08/13/03 01:31 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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You seem to be assuming the government wouldn't fuck this up as bad as everything else they do.
Besides it's not the job of the feds to hold everyones hand.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1809559 - 08/13/03 01:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's funny, government fucks up health care in this country by instituting all sorts of regulations and programs and then some people think we should give the government more power over the system so it can be 'fixed.' It's like someone breaking your leg with a sledge hammer and then handing you a pair of crutches and you're naive enough to think that they're helping you.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1809571 - 08/13/03 01:37 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The government could fuck up a handful of dirt.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1809613 - 08/13/03 01:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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well think about the +'s. No longer would we have insurance companies fucking us in the ass, the care would be widespread and thorough. and this just might give us more leverage on legalizing drugs! heh... maybe thats just a dream... anyway. It will allow our government to look towards more of a peoples goverment than, a corporate owned and government controlled institution. I dont know... I think its a good idea, it works well for england, and for canada.
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What?
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Azmodeus
Seeker
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1809629 - 08/13/03 01:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rono said:
WASHINGTON - A group of 8,000 American doctors has called for a national health insurance system, saying heath care in the U.S. is collapsing.
And they want it to be more like ours?!...i'd rather pay for decent service than the shit they pass of as health care now....
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Azmodeus
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Azmodeus]
#1809640 - 08/13/03 01:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Doctors here are underpaid, overworked and care little for tha patients they see. In fact a doctor misdiagnosed my g/f dad with diabetes when it was work stress, gave him pills to take, and now his body is incapable of producing the right bloodsugar level and he actually has diabetes now....FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. I thnk the doctors also get paid to perscribe certain brand names, not the best product. 
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
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Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Zero7a1]
#1809660 - 08/13/03 01:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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How many government programs have come in on or under budget and have lived up to all their promises? To quote P.J. O'Rourke, "If you think health care's expensive now, just wait till the government pays for it."
Not to mention, the government record keeping of all your health history, every discussion you've ever had with a doctor that he/she decided to make notes on. Ever smoked marijuana? How many drinks per week do you consume? Ever experimented with LSD? What about your psychiatric history, ever expressed anger with 'The System,' or fear of the government? What kind of meds are you on or have you been on for mental health issues? How would you feel if John Ashcroft had unlimited access to this information?
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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houshroom
shroom cowboy
Registered: 05/07/03
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Azmodeus]
#1809678 - 08/13/03 02:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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that would suck bad. think about how many "it's not my fault" americans there are that would tax the shit out of the healthcare system with bullshit lawsuits. fuck that, i'll buy my own thank you very much.
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Azmodeus
Seeker
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1809679 - 08/13/03 02:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Much better, then i'd be safe! 
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1809698 - 08/13/03 02:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why would the government require access to medical records?...they certainly don't have it in Canada unless by a court order.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1809730 - 08/13/03 02:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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You have a lot to learn about how the U.S. government operates my friend. There are always strings attached. The simplest excuse would be the need for oversight to make sure the taxpayers aren't being overcharged and erroneous claims are not being filed. If you think the government wouldn't have people snooping through these records...
I have just accidently discoverd 900 FBI files on my coffee table that were misplaced, would you like them back?
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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pattern
multiplayer
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Azmodeus]
#1810455 - 08/13/03 04:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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> Doctors here are underpaid
Are you sure? Or do you mean compared to American doctors? I havent met a doctor who cant afford a house, a couple cars, big TV, etc.
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man = monkey + mushroom
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Azmodeus
Seeker
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: pattern]
#1810468 - 08/13/03 04:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh they're well off, but yeah, they compare thier salaries to what they would make in the states...and promptly go there leaving the leftovers here, to practition in bitter spitefull misery...i wouldn't trust a doctor here as far as i could spit!
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1810499 - 08/13/03 05:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rono said:
'How many patients have to die from lack of health insurance?'
'One in seven Americans ? 41 million people ? have no health insurance'
luvdemshrooms replied:
You seem to be assuming the government wouldn't fuck this up as bad as everything else they do.
Autonomous replied:
It's funny, government fucks up health care in this country by instituting all sorts of regulations and programs and then some people think we should give the government more power over the system so it can be 'fixed.'
Azmodeus replied:
Doctors here are underpaid, overworked and care little for tha patients they see.
Interesting how not a single rebuttal addressed the problem.
I'm with Rono. Allowing people to die in the richest country on earth because they can't afford medical care is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1810589 - 08/13/03 05:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Perhaps because it's not much of a problem. Hospitals here rarely turn anyone away. why do you think California's, and other states with high percentages of illegals are in such piss poor shape.
It's not my problem, nor is it the governments responsibility.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1810635 - 08/13/03 05:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The main problem with the health care system here is we spend more money on people in the last few weeks of there life, then we do throughout the rest of their lifetime. Instead of putting someone guaranteed to die on life support, let them fucking die! If I am a 90 year old with a failing heart, don't spend $500,000 trying to keep me alive in pain for a couple of more weeks. Let me fucking die, and go on to whatever awaits me on the other side. I will see you in the next life. If not I will not know any better because I will be dead.
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1810669 - 08/13/03 05:43 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I will see you in the next life. If not I will not know any better because I will be dead.
If"the other side" or "a better place" ever gets in my doctors head while he is treating and is a deciding factor for how he treats me I hope he and his family die of cancer.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: sir tripsalot]
#1810684 - 08/13/03 05:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree I am just saying that we waste way to many resources trying to keep people that are most certainly going to die soon alive.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: sir tripsalot]
#1810687 - 08/13/03 05:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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How nice of you to wish ill will on an entire family simply because of the thoughts and actions of one person.
A kinder gentler liberal.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1810701 - 08/13/03 05:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just think of the things I'd wish on YOU and yours!
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1810724 - 08/13/03 05:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Perhaps because it's not much of a problem. Hospitals here rarely turn anyone away.
You're talking about the emergency room. I'm talking about the people who need a kidney transplant, a tumor operation, a mamogram... basically, anything outside the emergency room.
Quote:
It's not my problem, nor is it the governments responsibility.
Damn, I'm glad I don't live in a country that feels that way or whose people feel that way. Oh wait... 
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: sir tripsalot]
#1810794 - 08/13/03 06:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
sir tripsalot said:
Just think of the things I'd wish on YOU and yours!
Funny, but I wish you and yours NO ill-will.
So much for liberals wanting to look out for others. I guess you don't fit the mold unless it's convenient.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1810848 - 08/13/03 06:43 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Besides it's not the job of the feds to hold everyones hand.
What about state gov.?
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(•_•)
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1811058 - 08/13/03 07:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Besides it's not the job of the feds to hold everyones hand.
What about state gov.?
Not them either.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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z@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Zero7a1]
#1811172 - 08/13/03 08:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zero7a1 said:
well think about the +'s. No longer would we have insurance companies fucking us in the ass
I don't want the government fucking me up the ass. At least insurance is voluntary.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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z@z.com
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1811210 - 08/13/03 08:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cornholio said:
Damn, I'm glad I don't live in a country that feels that way or whose people feel that way. Oh wait...
I care. I just don't think it is right to forcefully take my money to give to someone else no matter how much they need it. I have now problem with voluntarily giving money to those in need however.
Just as an example about 10 years ago a girl (Mellissa Seegers maybe?) in my area needed a heart lung transplant. She didn't have insurance that would cover it. She asked for help and in less than 2 months had raised enough money to get the transplant. Sadly she died shortly thereafter.
Just because the government doesn't do something doesn't mean that no one will.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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DellComputers
Bluntman
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1811224 - 08/13/03 08:26 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Health insurance should be provided by the government. Private companies will always make $, but the government needs to step up and realize trillion dollar wars, billions in space exploration, even road repairs are all useless if there are no people to enjoy them(not that were enjoying the war, you know what i mean). Healthcare should be more important than any other government concern.
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: z@z.com]
#1811251 - 08/13/03 08:32 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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A few random, but related thoughts...
It's funny how when I was a kid (40 + years ago), health insurance was almost unheard of. Now, when more people have it than ever before, it becomes a crisis because not everyone has it.
A very nice lady doctor in my town told me that she is thinking about quitting her practice. The reason, the costs of doing business (the biggest expense being malpractice insurance) are forcing her to spend less and less time with her patients, she has to see as many as possible in order to cover the costs. Medicare and HMO compliance and standards also affect what she can and can't do and what she can charge.
It should be noted that Medicare is a government created and run entity and the HMOs growth and development were heavily promoted by government tax structures for businesses and government regulations.
Why doesn't anyone address the tort system which is out of control and driving up the price of malpractice insurance which in turn drives up the expenses of doctors as well as HMOs?
Why doesn't anyone worry that given the history of government run enterprises such as public education, the post office, Amtrak and widely wasteful military expenditures (you know, $95 bolts and some such nonsense) that creating another government run health care program could be catastrophic?
Why should those of us who take care of ourselves and worry about our health be burdened with medical expenses of those who live reckless and unhealthful lives?
Have you considered that taxpayer paid health care will probably encourage employers to stop offering health care and hence increase the tax burden upon the common working man?
How much more taxation should we be burdened with?
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1811298 - 08/13/03 08:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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All the Citizens of the US that want it should band together and get group insurance, form a kind of union thing, then contract out to the lowest bidder.
Of course, if you had that many people, they could afford to form their own non-proffit insurance company.
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(•_•)
<) )~ ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (> SUPER
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(•_•)
<) )> SOLDIERS
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1811348 - 08/13/03 08:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Texas is doing some major tort reform which should help.
http://www.tortreform.com/show_article.asp?articleID=202
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1811406 - 08/13/03 09:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have read that before the rise of HMOs there was a MUCH larger percentage of non-profit hospitals. After legislation was enacted offering incentives to businesses to offer health insurance for employees, the need for non-profit hospitals decreased. Also, non-profit hospitals have a much harder time funding malpractice insurance premiums. It seems lawyers don't give a shit about good Samaritan organizations and are in no small part to blame for our rising health care costs. Unfortunately, lawyers dominate all branches of government - the operators of our political system generally do not look favorably upon reducing the incomes of themselves or their friends and associates.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: z@z.com]
#1811542 - 08/13/03 09:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
z@z.com said:
Just as an example about 10 years ago a girl (Mellissa Seegers maybe?) in my area needed a heart lung transplant. She didn't have insurance that would cover it. She asked for help and in less than 2 months had raised enough money to get the transplant. Sadly she died shortly thereafter.
Just because the government doesn't do something doesn't mean that no one will.
The cute 10 year old girls usually luck out when it comes to receiving charitable contributions. The homeless 40 year olds aren't as lucky.
Quote:
z@z.com said:
I just don't think it is right to forcefully take my money to give to someone else no matter how much they need it.
Automomous said:
How much more taxation should we be burdened with?
Heaven forbid tax money is spent on saving someone's life. The horror! 
Do you realize that "the United States remains the only industrialized or second-tier country in the world that fails to guarantee its citizens access to medical services? This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty. Universal access to needed medical services enhances individual freedoms, liberties, opportunities and ability to be productive. Illness and disability hobble them."
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z@z.com said:
At least insurance is voluntary.
That's great for the people that can afford it. But Voluntary Insurance Does Not Work.
Quote:
DellComputers said:
Healthcare should be more important than any other government concern.
I second that. What could be more important than someone's life?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1811552 - 08/13/03 10:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cornholio said:
The cute 10 year old girls usually luck out when it comes to receiving charitable contributions. The homeless 40 year olds aren't as lucky.
LOL. Read what i said again. Please note the word "ago".
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1811566 - 08/13/03 10:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said:
The main problem with the health care system here is we spend more money on people in the last few weeks of there life, then we do throughout the rest of their lifetime. Instead of putting someone guaranteed to die on life support, let them fucking die! If I am a 90 year old with a failing heart, don't spend $500,000 trying to keep me alive in pain for a couple of more weeks.
Quote:
shakta said:
Texas is doing some major tort reform which should help.
http://www.tortreform.com/show_article.asp?articleID=202
Those are great points. Are you saying if we fix those problems you would support Government Health Care? I'm just trying to relate the problems you point out to Rono's original question of how to deal with the 41million Americans who aren't insured.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1811575 - 08/13/03 10:08 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cornholio said:
Do you realize that "the United States remains the only industrialized or second-tier country in the world that fails to guarantee its citizens access to medical services? This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.
I believe taking from one to give to another is a violation of liberty and our right to property. Do you believe that something is your "right" if it must be forcefully taken from another?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: z@z.com]
#1811629 - 08/13/03 10:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
z@z.com said:
I believe taking from one to give to another is a violation of liberty and our right to property. Do you believe that something is your "right" if it must be forcefully taken from another?
This is the topic of many other threads. Although I think we are currently spending way too much money on things that are FAR less important than health care, I do believe taxes are necessary. To quote Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers:
"How is it possible that a government half supplied and always necessitous, can fulfill the purposes of its institution, can provide for the security, advance the prosperity, or support the reputation of the commonwealth? How can it ever possess either energy or stability, dignity or credit, confidence at home or respectability abroad? How can its administration be any thing else than a succession of expedients temporizing, impotent, disgraceful? How will it be able to avoid a frequent sacrifice of its engagements to immediate necessity? How can it undertake or execute any liberal or enlarged plans of public good?"
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1811664 - 08/13/03 10:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cornholio said:
Heaven forbid tax money is spent on saving someone's life. The horror!
Economics cannot be ignored, how much of a tax burden can we face until our economy is destroyed? If the government impoverishes the populace and destroys the engine of economic productivity it doesn't matter how much you legislate free medical care, a condition of scarcity will prevail. If it's free but unavailable will that satisfy you?
Regarding "saving someone's life": You cannot save a life, you can only postpone death ( see comments at bottom). Why is one person's desire to lengthen his life an automatic claim on a portion of another's? By this, you must understand that the wealth taken from another is a product of a certain period of that other's life which he/she spent working.
Quote:
Do you realize that "the United States remains the only industrialized or second-tier country in the world that fails to guarantee its citizens access to medical services?
Ah, argumentum ad populum AGAIN. At least you are consistent, albeit irrational.
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This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.
How so? Apparently you conflate the concepts of liberty and rights with government handouts. That's right, 'free' health care is in fact not free but paid for from the labor of others. Liberty is not the same as living at the expense of another. A proper understanding of the concept of rights would entail the realization that rights pre-exist governments, a government may punish those who would violate a right, a government may attempt to protect a right, a government may take away a right, but a government cannot grant a right.
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Universal access to needed medical services enhances individual freedoms, liberties, opportunities and ability to be productive.
If by 'Universal Access' you mean that government forces taxpayers to pay for the health care of all you are wrong. By government taking money from someone, they are limiting that individual's freedom, liberty, opportunity and ability to be productive. Your statement implicitly assumes that there is no cost born in the implementation of government funded health care. This is untrue and short sighted.
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What could be more important than someone's life?
Everyone dies, it is a fact of life. The government can no more stop death than they can stop time.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1811918 - 08/13/03 11:51 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
Economics cannot be ignored, how much of a tax burden can we face until our economy is destroyed?
Amen to that! If only Bush was listening to this conversation with his irresposible spending.  Economics is indeed a critical factor. But when deciding whether to spend taxes on health care or the invasion of another country, sending a man to the moon, etc., my vote is unquestionably with the saving of lives.
Quote:
Why is one person's desire to lengthen his life an automatic claim on a portion of another's? By this, you must understand that the wealth taken from another is a product of a certain period of that other's life which he/she spent working.
You don't shorten someone's life by taxing them, you decrease their wealth a little bit.
Quote:
Ah, argumentum ad populum AGAIN. At least you are consistent, albeit irrational.
I should have said "we should provide healthcare even if no other country in the world did, because this country values life more than money." Wishful thinking? Actually, your statements clearly show that I am wrong, and that you (and undoubtedly other Americans) care more about a few extra dollars than the lives of other Americans.
Quote:
apparently you conflate the concepts of liberty and rights with government handouts. That's right, 'free' health care is in fact not free but paid for from the labor of others. Liberty is not the same as living at the expense of another. A proper understanding of the concept of rights would entail the realization that rights pre-exist governments, a government may punish those who would violate a right, a government may attempt to protect a right, a government may take away a right, but a government cannot grant a right.
I believe people have a right to both life and liberty. The right to life may indeed come at a small expense of liberty, just as the right to liberty may come at the expense of life (War of Independence).
Quote:
Everyone dies, it is a fact of life. The government can no more stop death than they can stop time.
Are you being serious, or am I missing the sarcasm? You've now justifed the untimely deaths of 500,000 Iraqis from UN sanctions: "Everyone dies." 
I will concede to your arguments, because it is clear America (being the only industrialized country in the world not guaranteeing its citizens access to medical services) is not as moral as the rest of the industrialized world. On second thought, I guess I already knew that.
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Edited by Cornholio (08/14/03 01:03 AM)
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1812102 - 08/14/03 01:19 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm curious as to how most people feel about universal healthcare.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
#1812134 - 08/14/03 01:39 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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well i guess i hate to say this.. .but we are damned if we do. and we are damned if we dont. Cause i mean i see your point on that... and that does raise a lot of issues. How they goverment gives money to people who dont need it... it gives benefits to those who definately dont need it, and or abuse it. And isnt their already benefits for people who dont have enough money to get it? They need to take the insurance companies off, those are definately fucking these people.
Scenario.... "man says he is not feeling well, ate some bad mushrooms he thought were edibles.... he is told to sit down and wait for his insurance to give him the okay... the man dies unexpectedly as it took him 2 hours to be seen by health care officials"
This is too big of a problem for me to try to even think about. But i do know that if the government was not corrupt, and if patient/doctor confididentiality was kept how it is, that goverment control might help give a steady care. But i dont htink the doctors should be considered goverment employees really... or should they? I still think they should more or less get paid what they do... maybe some are too high... and some too low. But i think its important for our goverment to look out for the welfare of the people, and not enforcing more beauracracy. This would only in effect cause the exact same problem which i think this plan is trying to fix.
I guess there really is no shelter here
Quote:
Rage Against The Machine---No Shelter
The act of extraction, got you number than number than numb
Into your pockets, son, they got you thinkin' that
What you need is what they sellin', made you think that buyin' is rebellin'
From the theaters to malls, on every shore, the thin line between entertainment and war
The front line is everywhere, there be no shelter here
Suburban nightmare what you wishin' for
I'm as tight as the whip, the truth feathered and tarred
Memories erased and promise gone, trading your history for a VCR
Cinema, simulated life and trauma, birthright, culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got you searchin' for, the thin line between entertainment and war
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
Hospitals, not profit full, the market's pull got pockets full
To advertise some hip disguise, view the world from American eyes
The (????) keep feedin' for more, the thin line between entertainment and war
Fix the need, develop the taste
Buy the products or get laid to waste
Coca-Cola is back in their veins in Saigon
And Rambo troops we gotta new paradise, huh
Godzilla pure motherfuckin' filler, get your eyes off the real killer
Cinema, simulated life and trauma, birthright, culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got you searchin' for, the thin line between entertainment and war
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
American eyes, American eyes
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothing behind
American eyes, American eyes
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothing behind
Just stare
Just stare
Just stare
Just stare and live the nightmare
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What?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1812430 - 08/14/03 03:43 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.
What does liberty have to do with universal health care?
And the last I looked, it's not in the bill of rights either.
If you're that concerned about health care for all, use your money to pay for it.
I'm not bothered in the slightest by this.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1812566 - 08/14/03 05:29 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
What does liberty have to do with universal health care?
Nothing. I said above that life wasn't a liberty, but a right. Universal health care has to do with life.
Quote:
And the last I looked, it's not in the bill of rights either.
Like it or not, the Supreme Court ruled that government could levy new taxes and undertake new spending if doing so improved the general welfare. As a libertarian, I don't expect you to agree to much with regards to Government spending, but I'd put health care above pretty much every other type of general welfare spending that the Government is currently doing.
Quote:
If you're that concerned about health care for all, use your money to pay for it.
I can't afford healthcare for all. Maybe my contributions can help save a few 10 year old girls, but if everyone chips in, universal healthcare is very doable (see any other civilized country for evidence). It's not like the costs would be too huge, because we are already paying for healthcare for 80% of the population in some way or other. The only increase to what we're spending now would be for the remaining 20%.
Quote:
I'm not bothered in the slightest by this.
I said "Allowing people to die in the richest country on earth because they can't afford medical care is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed." You responded "Perhaps because it's not much of a problem. Hospitals here rarely turn anyone away." I could be wrong, but I sensed a slight bit of compassion in that response. I think deep down there's a softie under that grinch exterior of yours. 
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1812594 - 08/14/03 06:06 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I could be wrong, but I sensed a slight bit of compassion in that response. I think deep down there's a softie under that grinch exterior of yours.
No, you're not wrong. I pay for my former step kids college. I pay for insurance for another former step kid. I pay for my moms house. I help friends, neighbors and family whenever and however I possibly can. I give to charities. I toss money into Salvation Army kettles. I do far more than many and not as much as some.
But I and only I have the right to decide where my money goes. (except as spelled out in the constitution)
While you were able to show me a Court decision saying basically the feds could tax for welfare, the court was wrong in that decision. Sadly, the courts opinion trumps mine.
Do I care if some kid in Oregon dies from kidney failure? No. I feel bad for her family, but it's not my problem. Some 80 year old I don't know and never will needs a new heart? Too fuckin bad. Do I care if some peasant in the Sudan can't feed his 15 kids? Not in the least.
People make choices. They live and / or die as a result of those choices. I have no wish to be held acountable for the choices of others.
I do the right thing. Not just when it's convienient, but all the time. I'm a person who believes strongly in things. I have a strong moral code. I stop and help people change tires or who have run out of gas. I do my part.
I draw the line when people tell me I have to do something, or that I'm a prick if I don't.
Fuck them. Fuck universal health care. Fuck welfare. Fuck social security. Fuck all those "social programs".
You want it? You pay for it.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1812677 - 08/14/03 07:05 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I believe people have a right to both life and liberty. The right to life may indeed come at a small expense of liberty, just as the right to liberty may come at the expense of life (War of Independence).
I also believe we have a right to life, but that doesn't mean that others are required to keep you alive. What it means is that no one else can arbitrarily end your life.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1812690 - 08/14/03 07:18 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, I would never be in favor of socialized health care. Call it what it is. It is socialism. I think this country has already gotten far enough away from the principles it was founded on. I think the two points I brought up would help the entire system greatly. The insurance companies aren't going to let themselves go out of business, so they have to charge out the ass for premiums. Tort reform, and using common sense when dealing with someone that is going to die would make healthcare affordable to all. The government's good intentions have already made a mess out of the system as already pointed out. I don't want to give them any more of my money.
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monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1812691 - 08/14/03 07:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The main problem with the health care system here is we spend more money on people in the last few weeks of there life, then we do throughout the rest of their lifetime.
Nothing could be further from the truth. People on life support account for maybe a few percent of total health care costs.
My mother works as a hospice nurse and my aunt is works as a geriatric nurse.I've raised this issue several times. Most people on life support are on it because of sudden traumatic injury (comas,etc.) These cases are relatively rare in the bigger picture. And my mother and aunt have told me that most elderly people sign living wills that don't allow them to be placed on any kind of life support.It's actually very trendy right now.
As far as the whole health care thing, I don't really see the difference between big business and big government. At least with this plan,everybody will have health care. If cut our bloated military budget by about 25%,we would have more than enough money for everyone without major tax changes. (BTW,the military's health care system is pretty effecient,and that's not privately owned.)
If you want to blame someone for outrageous medical cost,blame drug manufactures that make ginormous sums of money from people's suffering.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: monoamine]
#1812702 - 08/14/03 07:28 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am not saying we shouldn't keep people on life support if they have a chance at making it through it. Here is an example. My grandmother was 80 last year. She had a history of major heart problems. She had a heart attack, and the doctors told us she was most likely going to die. They went ahead and did another surgery on her. The next day her heart gave out, and she was on life support for a few days. The bill for all this was over $100,000. I think she never should have been given the surgery, and should have been sent home to die in the comfort of her own house. People die. It sucks but it is life. Is spending $200,000 to extend someones life a few months worth it? They are most certainly not living a quality life at that point. I say let nature take its course.
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monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1812736 - 08/14/03 07:50 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is spending $200,000 to extend someones life a few months worth it? They are most certainly not living a quality life at that point. I say let nature take its course.
I agree,but claiming that it's a big reason why the healthcare system is fucked is ridiculous.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: monoamine]
#1812763 - 08/14/03 08:09 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why? Doesn't this happen every day all across the country?
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
#1813301 - 08/14/03 11:33 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
It's not my problem, nor is it the governments responsibility.
I'm not bothered in the slightest by this.
Do I care if some kid in Oregon dies from kidney failure? No.
z@z.com said:
I just don't think it is right to forcefully take my money to give to someone else no matter how much they need it.
Autonomous said:
How much more taxation should we be burdened with?
You cannot save a life, you can only postpone death. Why is one person's desire to lengthen his life an automatic claim on a portion of another's?
shakta said:
No, I would never be in favor of socialized health care.... I don't want to give them any more of my money.
Like I said before, I concede this argument because so long as Americans believe a few extra dollars in their pocket is more important than the lives of their fellow Americans, then I AGREE, we SHOULD NOT pay for it.
But I do find it extremely interesting that as of the time I am writing this reply 100% of non-US citizens in the poll above said they DO NOT MIND paying for universal healthcare, while 100% of US citizens (excluding myself) said they WOULD MIND.
Says an awful lot about the US of A...
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813312 - 08/14/03 11:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Says an awful lot about the US of A
Actually, it says more about the stupidity and gullibility of those from other nations.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1813328 - 08/14/03 11:43 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree, not to mention the fact that they all already have it and it sucks. Cornholio what makes you think a socialized system here would work any better than it does in Canada and England. Both of their systems suck.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813357 - 08/14/03 11:53 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said:
Cornholio what makes you think a socialized system here would work any better than it does in Canada and England. Both of their systems suck.
I experienced US socialized medicine in the military. It was more than adequate.
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813407 - 08/14/03 12:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you think it is realistic that the same type of thing could be expanded to 300 million people? I currently pay about $12 a month for health care. My employer pays about $160 for me. If you think the government can provide health care for a 'few' dollars a month I would be willing to listen. I don't see that as being possible at all though.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813458 - 08/14/03 12:19 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, there's something like 3 million people in the military I think. That's pretty good sized, and it's working.
But even if Government supplied healthcare doesn't work to everyone's satisfaction, those with enough money should still be able to get private care, just like those that don't like the public education system can send their kids to private school. This is mainly to treat people who get illnesses that they otherwise couldn't afford to treat on their own, or illnesses that would destroy a person's wealth.
Humans have evolved to the point where we are now capable of providing everyone with healthcare (again, see every other civilized country as evidence). But if the US is still too selfish to do that for its own citizens, then I'll side with the majority until our attitude changes.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813478 - 08/14/03 12:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The only other major problem I see with it are the amount of private jobs that will be lost, and the cost of implementing such a thing. Can you imagine how much that would cost? I don't think the issue is all about selfishness either. I think a lot of people here don't want to live in a socialist country and they see this as the first step.
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Azmodeus
Seeker
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813491 - 08/14/03 12:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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"now everyone dump thier school supplies in the box up front... the teacher will distribute them as needed"
-gr1 class
Health care is a later step...
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Azmodeus]
#1813501 - 08/14/03 12:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, since no one here has seen that happen, I am hoping it is not the norm. We already have many socialist programs in existance. I just don't think we need any more.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813518 - 08/14/03 12:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said:
The only other major problem I see with it are the amount of private jobs that will be lost, and the cost of implementing such a thing.
As long as doctors are paid at a rate similar to what they're getting now, most probably wouldn't mind working for the Govt.
Quote:
Can you imagine how much that would cost?
Well, the healthcare we're getting now isn't exactly free. All the money that we're spending now on insurance would be freed up, and that same money would go to taxes. The only new expense would be to cover the 20% of Americans that currently don't have insurance.
Quote:
I don't think the issue is all about selfishness either. I think a lot of people here don't want to live in a socialist country and they see this as the first step.
I don't follow that logic at all. This is how I would paraphrase that: "Better to let people die than to follow a socialist policy". Sadly though, I think that's how many people think.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813546 - 08/14/03 12:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Better to let people die than to follow a socialist policy".
See, even you are right once in awhile.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
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Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1813563 - 08/14/03 12:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813570 - 08/14/03 12:50 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wasn't talking about the doctors only. They make up a small amount of the people affected. How about all the people that work at the insurance companies? Also, the cost of converting to such a large system would be huge.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813594 - 08/14/03 12:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Like I said, so long as we're the only country that opposes healthcare for everyone, I have to respect the majority opinion.
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813613 - 08/14/03 01:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why? You don't on any other issue. 
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813628 - 08/14/03 01:05 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh that doesn't mean I agree with the selfish majority opinion!!!
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
#1813631 - 08/14/03 01:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Because he has a job WITH health insurance and it relativly inexpensive.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1813637 - 08/14/03 01:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The majority also thinks Bush is OK, guns are good, and affirmative action is bad.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1813672 - 08/14/03 01:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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...so I've got to educate them about Bush (actually, I consider myself relatively neutral on gun control and affirmative action; I couldn't care less which way those laws go).
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1814182 - 08/14/03 03:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Wonders of Socialized Medicine, the Horrors of British Teeth
We have to salute the New York Times, for a change. Though it frequently agitates for the feds to impose socialized medicine on Americans, it is honest enough to expose the nightmare of the United Kingdom's government health system.
In one of the funniest episodes of "The Simpsons," a deranged dentist terrifies children into improving their brushing and flossing by forcing them to page through the ghastly "Big Book of British Smiles." Americans have long wondered why our English friends have such horrible teeth. Even the likes of Tony Blair and Prince Charles have choppers like those of a Detroit crack addict or San Francisco vagrant.
Here's one reason: The so-called National Health Service has wreaked havoc on the U.K.'s dental care.
The Times reports that things are so bad that 600 dentally challenged Welshmen laid siege to one dental office in Carmarthen in a desperate effort to get an appointment. People came from 90 miles away, pitched tents and even attempted bribery.
The article features a frightening photo of an unfortunate man named Steven Ackworth attempting a grin.
"My crowns all fell off," he said. "I got some really bad dentistry, and it ruined all my root work. I have no front teeth and one pair of molars, which meet on the right side of my mouth. I can't bite anything."
The dentist in Carmarthen had to turn away 300 angry citizens.
"Because they are paying national insurance, people feel they are entitled to service," said Heather Davies, the office manager.
Imagine that. What nerve, expecting to get what you pay for.
What remains of the free market is keeping the U.K. from losing its last molar and bicuspid. More and more docs are fleeing for private practice.
"Dentists do go private because they don't have to work at the same frenetic pace they do at the NHS, and there is a better quality of care for the dentists," said Stuart Geddes, director of British Dental Association.
Whereas an American dentist sees 12 patients a day, Britain's government dentists must tend to 30, 40 or even 50 mouths a day, the newspaper says.
How nice that we know what to expect when HillaryCare becomes the law of the land.
Bad teeth
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1814512 - 08/14/03 05:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
What remains of the free market is keeping the U.K. from losing its last molar and bicuspid. More and more docs are fleeing for private practice.
"Dentists do go private because they don't have to work at the same frenetic pace they do at the NHS, and there is a better quality of care for the dentists," said Stuart Geddes, director of British Dental Association.
Sounds like people who want private dental care are getting it! Besides, do you think there's no American medical horror stories?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
#1814719 - 08/14/03 06:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sounds like people who want private dental care are getting it! Besides, do you think there's no American medical horror stories?
It's not the ones who want private care who are suffering. The poor are suffering as a result of the system so many here desire.
Of course there are American horror stories. I just happened to like this story because it's both true and funny. (as relates to the stereotypical Englishman) (which by the way Alpo & Gazz, I'm aware it is a stereotype) 
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
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Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1815381 - 08/14/03 10:05 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think you righties can calm down.I don't see any chance in hell that the whole medical industry could be socialized in the U.S.,there are too many lobbies and other vested interests. I'm sure the insurance industry wouldn't go down without a huge battle.
When people point out flaws with Canada and Britain's socialized system, I think they tend to oversimplify the whole thing. You also have to remember cultural,economic,and political differences. It's like comparing apples and oranges. And with America basically being the leader in medicine,these other countries have to do things like import expensive drugs on patent,lack of competant doctors,etc. (as that article pointed out,dentists in the U.K. are seeing three times as many patients a day,which probably means there is a lack of dentists).
And what about other countries with socialized health care? I could be wrong,be I hear the Scandinavian countries and such with socialized systems are doing pretty well.
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Edited by grandmasterfat (08/14/03 10:10 PM)
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: monoamine]
#1816249 - 08/15/03 07:09 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with your points. The Scandinavian countries do have good systems from what I have heard. The taxes there are also outrageous.
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