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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
    #1811918 - 08/14/03 01:51 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
Economics cannot be ignored, how much of a tax burden can we face until our economy is destroyed?


Amen to that!  If only Bush was listening to this conversation with his irresposible spending.  :tongue:  Economics is indeed a critical factor.  But when deciding whether to spend taxes on health care or the invasion of another country, sending a man to the moon, etc., my vote is unquestionably with the saving of lives.
Quote:

Why is one person's desire to lengthen his life an automatic claim on a portion of another's? By this, you must understand that the wealth taken from another is a product of a certain period of that other's life which he/she spent working.


You don't shorten someone's life by taxing them, you decrease their wealth a little bit.
Quote:

Ah, argumentum ad populum AGAIN.  At least you are consistent, albeit irrational.


I should have said "we should provide healthcare even if no other country in the world did, because this country values life more than money."  Wishful thinking?  Actually, your statements clearly show that I am wrong, and that you (and undoubtedly other Americans) care more about a few extra dollars than the lives of other Americans.
Quote:

apparently you conflate the concepts of liberty and rights with government handouts. That's right, 'free' health care is in fact not free but paid for from the labor of others. Liberty is not the same as living at the expense of another. A proper understanding of the concept of rights would entail the realization that rights pre-exist governments, a government may punish those who would violate a right, a government may attempt to protect a right, a government may take away a right, but a government cannot grant a right.


I believe people have a right to both life and liberty.  The right to life may indeed come at a small expense of liberty, just as the right to liberty may come at the expense of life (War of Independence).
Quote:

Everyone dies, it is a fact of life.  The government can no more stop death than they can stop time.   


Are you being serious, or am I missing the sarcasm?  You've now justifed the untimely deaths of 500,000 Iraqis from UN sanctions:  "Everyone dies."  :shake:

I will concede to your arguments, because it is clear America (being the only industrialized country in the world not guaranteeing its citizens access to medical services) is not as moral as the rest of the industrialized world.  On second thought, I guess I already knew that. 


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (08/14/03 03:03 AM)


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1812102 - 08/14/03 03:19 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'm curious as to how most people feel about universal healthcare.

Please choose one:
I am a US citizen and I would mind paying for universal healthcare
I am a US citizen and I would not mind paying for universal healthcare
I am not a US citizen and I mind paying for universal healthcare
I am not a US citizen and I do not mind paying for universal healthcare



Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
    #1812134 - 08/14/03 03:39 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

well i guess i hate to say this.. .but we are damned if we do. and we are damned if we dont. Cause i mean i see your point on that... and that does raise a lot of issues. How they goverment gives money to people who dont need it... it gives benefits to those who definately dont need it, and or abuse it. And isnt their already benefits for people who dont have enough money to get it? They need to take the insurance companies off, those are definately fucking these people.

Scenario.... "man says he is not feeling well, ate some bad mushrooms he thought were edibles.... he is told to sit down and wait for his insurance to give him the okay... the man dies unexpectedly as it took him 2 hours to be seen by health care officials"

This is too big of a problem for me to try to even think about. But i do know that if the government was not corrupt, and if patient/doctor confididentiality was kept how it is, that goverment control might help give a steady care. But i dont htink the doctors should be considered goverment employees really... or should they? I still think they should more or less get paid what they do... maybe some are too high... and some too low. But i think its important for our goverment to look out for the welfare of the people, and not enforcing more beauracracy. This would only in effect cause the exact same problem which i think this plan is trying to fix.

I guess there really is no shelter here

Quote:


Rage Against The Machine---No Shelter

The act of extraction, got you number than number than numb
Into your pockets, son, they got you thinkin' that
What you need is what they sellin', made you think that buyin' is rebellin'
From the theaters to malls, on every shore, the thin line between entertainment and war
The front line is everywhere, there be no shelter here

Suburban nightmare what you wishin' for
I'm as tight as the whip, the truth feathered and tarred
Memories erased and promise gone, trading your history for a VCR
Cinema, simulated life and trauma, birthright, culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got you searchin' for, the thin line between entertainment and war

There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere

Hospitals, not profit full, the market's pull got pockets full
To advertise some hip disguise, view the world from American eyes
The (????) keep feedin' for more, the thin line between entertainment and war
Fix the need, develop the taste
Buy the products or get laid to waste

Coca-Cola is back in their veins in Saigon
And Rambo troops we gotta new paradise, huh
Godzilla pure motherfuckin' filler, get your eyes off the real killer
Cinema, simulated life and trauma, birthright, culture, Americana
Chained to the dream they got you searchin' for, the thin line between entertainment and war

There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere
There be no shelter here, the front line is everywhere

American eyes, American eyes
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothing behind

American eyes, American eyes
View the world from American eyes
Bury the past, rob us blind
And leave nothing behind

Just stare
Just stare
Just stare
Just stare and live the nightmare





--------------------
What?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1812430 - 08/14/03 05:43 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.



What does liberty have to do with universal health care?

And the last I looked, it's not in the bill of rights either.


If you're that concerned about health care for all, use your money to pay for it.

I'm not bothered in the slightest by this.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1812566 - 08/14/03 07:29 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
What does liberty have to do with universal health care?


Nothing.  I said above that life wasn't a liberty, but a right.  Universal health care has to do with life.

Quote:

And the last I looked, it's not in the bill of rights either.


Like it or not, the Supreme Court ruled that government could levy new taxes and undertake new spending if doing so improved the general welfare.  As a libertarian, I don't expect you to agree to much with regards to Government spending, but I'd put health care above pretty much every other type of general welfare spending that the Government is currently doing.

Quote:

If you're that concerned about health care for all, use your money to pay for it.


I can't afford healthcare for all.  Maybe my contributions can help save a few 10 year old girls, but if everyone chips in, universal healthcare is very doable (see any other civilized country for evidence).  It's not like the costs would be too huge, because we are already paying for healthcare for 80% of the population in some way or other.  The only increase to what we're spending now would be for the remaining 20%.

Quote:

I'm not bothered in the slightest by this.


I said "Allowing people to die in the richest country on earth because they can't afford medical care is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed."  You responded "Perhaps because it's not much of a problem. Hospitals here rarely turn anyone away."  I could be wrong, but I sensed a slight bit of compassion in that response.  I think deep down there's a softie under that grinch exterior of yours.  :wink: 


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1812594 - 08/14/03 08:06 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I could be wrong, but I sensed a slight bit of compassion in that response. I think deep down there's a softie under that grinch exterior of yours.



No, you're not wrong. I pay for my former step kids college. I pay for insurance for another former step kid. I pay for my moms house. I help friends, neighbors and family whenever and however I possibly can. I give to charities. I toss money into Salvation Army kettles. I do far more than many and not as much as some.

But I and only I have the right to decide where my money goes. (except as spelled out in the constitution)

While you were able to show me a Court decision saying basically the feds could tax for welfare, the court was wrong in that decision. Sadly, the courts opinion trumps mine.

Do I care if some kid in Oregon dies from kidney failure? No. I feel bad for her family, but it's not my problem. Some 80 year old I don't know and never will needs a new heart? Too fuckin bad. Do I care if some peasant in the Sudan can't feed his 15 kids? Not in the least.

People make choices. They live and / or die as a result of those choices. I have no wish to be held acountable for the choices of others.

I do the right thing. Not just when it's convienient, but all the time. I'm a person who believes strongly in things. I have a strong moral code. I stop and help people change tires or who have run out of gas. I do my part.

I draw the line when people tell me I have to do something, or that I'm a prick if I don't.

Fuck them. Fuck universal health care. Fuck welfare. Fuck social security. Fuck all those "social programs".


You want it? You pay for it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1812677 - 08/14/03 09:05 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I believe people have a right to both life and liberty. The right to life may indeed come at a small expense of liberty, just as the right to liberty may come at the expense of life (War of Independence).



I also believe we have a right to life, but that doesn't mean that others are required to keep you alive. What it means is that no one else can arbitrarily end your life.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1812690 - 08/14/03 09:18 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

No, I would never be in favor of socialized health care. Call it what it is. It is socialism. I think this country has already gotten far enough away from the principles it was founded on. I think the two points I brought up would help the entire system greatly. The insurance companies aren't going to let themselves go out of business, so they have to charge out the ass for premiums. Tort reform, and using common sense when dealing with someone that is going to die would make healthcare affordable to all. The government's good intentions have already made a mess out of the system as already pointed out. I don't want to give them any more of my money.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 16 years, 24 days
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
    #1812691 - 08/14/03 09:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The main problem with the health care system here is we spend more money on people in the last few weeks of there life, then we do throughout the rest of their lifetime.




Nothing could be further from the truth. People on life support account for maybe a few percent of total health care costs.
My mother works as a hospice nurse and my aunt is works as a geriatric nurse.I've raised this issue several times. Most people on life support are on it because of sudden traumatic injury (comas,etc.) These cases are relatively rare in the bigger picture. And my mother and aunt have told me that most elderly people sign living wills that don't allow them to be placed on any kind of life support.It's actually very trendy right now.

As far as the whole health care thing, I don't really see the difference between big business and big government. At least with this plan,everybody will have health care. If cut our bloated military budget by about 25%,we would have more than enough money for everyone without major tax changes. (BTW,the military's health care system is pretty effecient,and that's not privately owned.)
If you want to blame someone for outrageous medical cost,blame drug manufactures that make ginormous sums of money from people's suffering.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: monoamine]
    #1812702 - 08/14/03 09:28 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I am not saying we shouldn't keep people on life support if they have a chance at making it through it. Here is an example. My grandmother was 80 last year. She had a history of major heart problems. She had a heart attack, and the doctors told us she was most likely going to die. They went ahead and did another surgery on her. The next day her heart gave out, and she was on life support for a few days. The bill for all this was over $100,000. I think she never should have been given the surgery, and should have been sent home to die in the comfort of her own house. People die. It sucks but it is life. Is spending $200,000 to extend someones life a few months worth it? They are most certainly not living a quality life at that point. I say let nature take its course.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 16 years, 24 days
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
    #1812736 - 08/14/03 09:50 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Is spending $200,000 to extend someones life a few months worth it? They are most certainly not living a quality life at that point. I say let nature take its course.




I agree,but claiming that it's a big reason why the healthcare system is fucked is ridiculous.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: monoamine]
    #1812763 - 08/14/03 10:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Why? Doesn't this happen every day all across the country?


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
    #1813301 - 08/14/03 01:33 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
It's not my problem, nor is it the governments responsibility.

I'm not bothered in the slightest by this.

Do I care if some kid in Oregon dies from kidney failure? No.

z@z.com said:
I just don't think it is right to forcefully take my money to give to someone else no matter how much they need it.

Autonomous said:
How much more taxation should we be burdened with?

You cannot save a life, you can only postpone death. Why is one person's desire to lengthen his life an automatic claim on a portion of another's?

shakta said:
No, I would never be in favor of socialized health care.... I don't want to give them any more of my money.


Like I said before, I concede this argument because so long as Americans believe a few extra dollars in their pocket is more important than the lives of their fellow Americans, then I AGREE, we SHOULD NOT pay for it.

But I do find it extremely interesting that as of the time I am writing this reply 100% of non-US citizens in the poll above said they DO NOT MIND paying for universal healthcare, while 100% of US citizens (excluding myself) said they WOULD MIND.

Says an awful lot about the US of A...  :sad:     


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1813312 - 08/14/03 01:37 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Says an awful lot about the US of A


Actually, it says more about the stupidity and gullibility of those from other nations.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1813328 - 08/14/03 01:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, not to mention the fact that they all already have it and it sucks. Cornholio what makes you think a socialized system here would work any better than it does in Canada and England. Both of their systems suck.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
    #1813357 - 08/14/03 01:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Cornholio what makes you think a socialized system here would work any better than it does in Canada and England. Both of their systems suck.


I experienced US socialized medicine in the military. It was more than adequate.


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1813407 - 08/14/03 02:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think it is realistic that the same type of thing could be expanded to 300 million people? I currently pay about $12 a month for health care. My employer pays about $160 for me. If you think the government can provide health care for a 'few' dollars a month I would be willing to listen. I don't see that as being possible at all though.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
    #1813458 - 08/14/03 02:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Well, there's something like 3 million people in the military I think. That's pretty good sized, and it's working.

But even if Government supplied healthcare doesn't work to everyone's satisfaction, those with enough money should still be able to get private care, just like those that don't like the public education system can send their kids to private school. This is mainly to treat people who get illnesses that they otherwise couldn't afford to treat on their own, or illnesses that would destroy a person's wealth.

Humans have evolved to the point where we are now capable of providing everyone with healthcare (again, see every other civilized country as evidence). But if the US is still too selfish to do that for its own citizens, then I'll side with the majority until our attitude changes.


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1813478 - 08/14/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The only other major problem I see with it are the amount of private jobs that will be lost, and the cost of implementing such a thing. Can you imagine how much that would cost? I don't think the issue is all about selfishness either. I think a lot of people here don't want to live in a socialist country and they see this as the first step.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
    #1813491 - 08/14/03 02:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"now everyone dump thier school supplies in the box up front... the teacher will distribute them as needed"
-gr1 class

Health care is a later step... :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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