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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1810684 - 08/13/03 07:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I agree I am just saying that we waste way to many resources trying to keep people that are most certainly going to die soon alive.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1810687 - 08/13/03 07:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

How nice of you to wish ill will on an entire family simply because of the thoughts and actions of one person.

A kinder gentler liberal.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1810701 - 08/13/03 07:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Just think of the things I'd wish on YOU and yours!


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1810724 - 08/13/03 07:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Perhaps because it's not much of a problem. Hospitals here rarely turn anyone away.


You're talking about the emergency room.  I'm talking about the people who need a kidney transplant, a tumor operation, a mamogram... basically, anything outside the emergency room.

Quote:

It's not my problem, nor is it the governments responsibility.


Damn, I'm glad I don't live in a country that feels that way or whose people feel that way.  Oh wait...  :sad: 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1810794 - 08/13/03 08:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sir tripsalot said:
Just think of the things I'd wish on YOU and yours!



Funny, but I wish you and yours NO ill-will.

So much for liberals wanting to look out for others. I guess you don't fit the mold unless it's convenient.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1810848 - 08/13/03 08:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Besides it's not the job of the feds to hold everyones hand.




What about state gov.?


--------------------
(•_•)
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1811058 - 08/13/03 09:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Besides it's not the job of the feds to hold everyones hand.




What about state gov.?



Not them either.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1811172 - 08/13/03 10:15 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
well think about the +'s. No longer would we have insurance companies fucking us in the ass



I don't want the government fucking me up the ass. At least insurance is voluntary.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Loc: ATL
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1811210 - 08/13/03 10:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Damn, I'm glad I don't live in a country that feels that way or whose people feel that way.  Oh wait...  :sad: 



I care. I just don't think it is right to forcefully take my money to give to someone else no matter how much they need it. I have now problem with voluntarily giving money to those in need however.

Just as an example about 10 years ago a girl (Mellissa Seegers maybe?) in my area needed a heart lung transplant. She didn't have insurance that would cover it. She asked for help and in less than 2 months had raised enough money to get the transplant. Sadly she died shortly thereafter.
Just because the government doesn't do something doesn't mean that no one will.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDellComputers
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Registered: 04/15/03
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Rono]
    #1811224 - 08/13/03 10:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Health insurance should be provided by the government. Private companies will always make $, but the government needs to step up and realize trillion dollar wars, billions in space exploration, even road repairs are all useless if there are no people to enjoy them(not that were enjoying the war, you know what i mean). Healthcare should be more important than any other government concern.


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:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: z@z.com]
    #1811251 - 08/13/03 10:32 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

A few random, but related thoughts...

It's funny how when I was a kid (40 + years ago), health insurance was almost unheard of. Now, when more people have it than ever before, it becomes a crisis because not everyone has it.

A very nice lady doctor in my town told me that she is thinking about quitting her practice. The reason, the costs of doing business (the biggest expense being malpractice insurance) are forcing her to spend less and less time with her patients, she has to see as many as possible in order to cover the costs. Medicare and HMO compliance and standards also affect what she can and can't do and what she can charge.

It should be noted that Medicare is a government created and run entity and the HMOs growth and development were heavily promoted by government tax structures for businesses and government regulations.

Why doesn't anyone address the tort system which is out of control and driving up the price of malpractice insurance which in turn drives up the expenses of doctors as well as HMOs?

Why doesn't anyone worry that given the history of government run enterprises such as public education, the post office, Amtrak and widely wasteful military expenditures (you know, $95 bolts and some such nonsense) that creating another government run health care program could be catastrophic?

Why should those of us who take care of ourselves and worry about our health be burdened with medical expenses of those who live reckless and unhealthful lives?

Have you considered that taxpayer paid health care will probably encourage employers to stop offering health care and hence increase the tax burden upon the common working man?

How much more taxation should we be burdened with?


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
    #1811298 - 08/13/03 10:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

All the Citizens of the US that want it should band together and get group insurance, form a kind of union thing, then contract out to the lowest bidder.

Of course, if you had that many people, they could afford to form their own non-proffit insurance company.


--------------------
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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Autonomous]
    #1811348 - 08/13/03 10:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Texas is doing some major tort reform which should help.

http://www.tortreform.com/show_article.asp?articleID=202


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1811406 - 08/13/03 11:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I have read that before the rise of HMOs there was a MUCH larger percentage of non-profit hospitals. After legislation was enacted offering incentives to businesses to offer health insurance for employees, the need for non-profit hospitals decreased. Also, non-profit hospitals have a much harder time funding malpractice insurance premiums. It seems lawyers don't give a shit about good Samaritan organizations and are in no small part to blame for our rising health care costs. Unfortunately, lawyers dominate all branches of government - the operators of our political system generally do not look favorably upon reducing the incomes of themselves or their friends and associates.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: z@z.com]
    #1811542 - 08/13/03 11:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Just as an example about 10 years ago a girl (Mellissa Seegers maybe?) in my area needed a heart lung transplant. She didn't have insurance that would cover it. She asked for help and in less than 2 months had raised enough money to get the transplant. Sadly she died shortly thereafter.
Just because the government doesn't do something doesn't mean that no one will. 


The cute 10 year old girls usually luck out when it comes to receiving charitable contributions.  The homeless 40 year olds aren't as lucky.
Quote:

z@z.com said:
I just don't think it is right to forcefully take my money to give to someone else no matter how much they need it.

Automomous said:
How much more taxation should we be burdened with?


Heaven forbid tax money is spent on saving someone's life.  The horror!  :eek:

Do you realize that "the United States remains the only industrialized or second-tier country in the world that fails to guarantee its citizens access to medical services? This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.  Universal access to needed medical services enhances individual freedoms, liberties, opportunities and ability to be productive. Illness and disability hobble them."
Quote:

z@z.com said:
At least insurance is voluntary.


That's great for the people that can afford it.  But Voluntary Insurance Does Not Work.

Quote:

DellComputers said:
Healthcare should be more important than any other government concern.


I second that.  What could be more important than someone's life? 


--------------------


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1811552 - 08/14/03 12:03 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
The cute 10 year old girls usually luck out when it comes to receiving charitable contributions. The homeless 40 year olds aren't as lucky.




LOL. Read what i said again. Please note the word "ago".


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: shakta]
    #1811566 - 08/14/03 12:06 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
The main problem with the health care system here is we spend more money on people in the last few weeks of there life, then we do throughout the rest of their lifetime. Instead of putting someone guaranteed to die on life support, let them fucking die! If I am a 90 year old with a failing heart, don't spend $500,000 trying to keep me alive in pain for a couple of more weeks.



Quote:

shakta said:
Texas is doing some major tort reform which should help.

http://www.tortreform.com/show_article.asp?articleID=202


Those are great points. Are you saying if we fix those problems you would support Government Health Care? I'm just trying to relate the problems you point out to Rono's original question of how to deal with the 41million Americans who aren't insured.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1811575 - 08/14/03 12:08 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Do you realize that "the United States remains the only industrialized or second-tier country in the world that fails to guarantee its citizens access to medical services? This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.



I believe taking from one to give to another is a violation of liberty and our right to property. Do you believe that something is your "right" if it must be forcefully taken from another?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: z@z.com]
    #1811629 - 08/14/03 12:30 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
I believe taking from one to give to another is a violation of liberty and our right to property. Do you believe that something is your "right" if it must be forcefully taken from another?


This is the topic of many other threads. Although I think we are currently spending way too much money on things that are FAR less important than health care, I do believe taxes are necessary. To quote Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers:

"How is it possible that a government half supplied and always necessitous, can fulfill the purposes of its institution, can provide for the security, advance the prosperity, or support the reputation of the commonwealth? How can it ever possess either energy or stability, dignity or credit, confidence at home or respectability abroad? How can its administration be any thing else than a succession of expedients temporizing, impotent, disgraceful? How will it be able to avoid a frequent sacrifice of its engagements to immediate necessity? How can it undertake or execute any liberal or enlarged plans of public good?"


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
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Re: U.S. doctors call for Canadian-style health insurance [Re: Cornholio]
    #1811664 - 08/14/03 12:38 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Heaven forbid tax money is spent on saving someone's life. The horror!



Economics cannot be ignored, how much of a tax burden can we face until our economy is destroyed? If the government impoverishes the populace and destroys the engine of economic productivity it doesn't matter how much you legislate free medical care, a condition of scarcity will prevail. If it's free but unavailable will that satisfy you?

Regarding "saving someone's life": You cannot save a life, you can only postpone death ( see comments at bottom). Why is one person's desire to lengthen his life an automatic claim on a portion of another's? By this, you must understand that the wealth taken from another is a product of a certain period of that other's life which he/she spent working.

Quote:

Do you realize that "the United States remains the only industrialized or second-tier country in the world that fails to guarantee its citizens access to medical services?



Ah, argumentum ad populum AGAIN. At least you are consistent, albeit irrational.

Quote:

This is a curious omission for a country based on rights and liberty.



How so? Apparently you conflate the concepts of liberty and rights with government handouts. That's right, 'free' health care is in fact not free but paid for from the labor of others. Liberty is not the same as living at the expense of another. A proper understanding of the concept of rights would entail the realization that rights pre-exist governments, a government may punish those who would violate a right, a government may attempt to protect a right, a government may take away a right, but a government cannot grant a right.

Quote:

Universal access to needed medical services enhances individual freedoms, liberties, opportunities and ability to be productive.



If by 'Universal Access' you mean that government forces taxpayers to pay for the health care of all you are wrong. By government taking money from someone, they are limiting that individual's freedom, liberty, opportunity and ability to be productive. Your statement implicitly assumes that there is no cost born in the implementation of government funded health care. This is untrue and short sighted.

Quote:

What could be more important than someone's life?



Everyone dies, it is a fact of life. The government can no more stop death than they can stop time.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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