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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers * 10
    #18081573 - 04/09/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I thought I had posted this a long time ago but apparently it just sits in my journal being useless. So here it is for everyone to see :thumbup:


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I wish I had never published the grain lc tek because it causes more problems, and is slower than grain to grain transfers.




There is a misconception among new growers that using agar is difficult and LCs are an attractive alternative. It is backwards: LC is not for beginners while agar is very helpful for them.

Let me start off by clearing one important thing up:

AGAR WORK CAN BE DONE WITH GREAT SUCCESS IN A STILL-AIR BOX.

I hear a lot of people say that they are afraid to use agar because they don't own a laminar flow hood. This is an irrational fear. I have been working with agar in still-air boxes for over a year and have had very little contamination to contend with.

Even if you've never had a grow go south due to a contam, there's no reason you should unknowingly seek one out. LCs are notoriously contam prone, and this is infuriating because when an LC is contaminated, you will never be able to tell just by looking at it.

Each time you want to use your LC, you'll need to test each syringe containing that culture on something- I used BRF cakes back in the day for testing. Otherwise, you risk ruining all of your grain jars.

Using a jar of LC multiple times? Hope your inoc port is sturdy and your filter doesn't ever get wet. Each time you stick a needle into it, you open up a possible contam route, potentially ruining the rest of your culture.

Grain LC is considered "safer" and "better" by many members, but it too falls prey to every risk that a traditional LC has to face.
The argument that "you will see the contamination on the grains" is a shaky platform at best. In my experience, you can SMELL contaminants on the grains, but many of the common molds that occur also have a white mycelium that can be difficult to distinguish from cubensis myc.

If your grains are indeed clean, there is always the possibility of contamination when making the GLC. Each needle stick into a jar can carry contams, and you'll want to make sure your filters don't get wet at any time.

If the contam gets into one of your jars during the process of making the GLC, you will not know unless you test it out before using it to inoculate large amounts of grain.

Simplicity is key. Each extra step taken to get the mycelium grown and on to the grains adds another possible route for contamination.

With agar, you can place spores directly onto the media. You will see the growth of your mycelium from start to finish.

On agar, contaminants manifest visually as well. It's very clear where your intruder is and when he is present. Since everything on agar grows on a flat plane, it's a simple process to transfer your culture away from any problems that may arise.

Agar work requires precision, patience, and practice. But the pros outweigh the cons. Working with a guaranteed clean culture is priceless.
Isolation is also an option with agar, and nothing is exciting like picking individual genetics or clones to fruit.

It's also an intimate way to get to know your mycelium and watch the beauty unfold clearly in front of you.

When it comes time to propagate more spawn, grain-to-grain may seem intimidating but it's actually much safer than LC inoculations for every jar.

GRAIN TO GRAIN TRANSFERS CAN ALSO BE DONE WITH GREAT SUCCESS IN A STILL-AIR BOX.

I love grain to grain because it is fast. Once you get the hang of it, one master jar of spawn can become 10-20 fully colonized jars in a week's time. This cuts down on the chances of contamination significantly, where as LC used sparingly will take 2-3 weeks to colonize each jar.


I hope this helps some of you choose agar work over LCs in the future. You will regret you didn't start it sooner :thumbup:

To get started, watch RR's agar prep video:
http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Agar-Petri-Dishes

edit: There are plenty of good uses for LC, don't get me wrong. I wrote this for beginners who are looking to grow cubensis with LCs. :thumbup:


--------------------

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Edited by FrankHorrigan (07/30/13 11:59 AM)


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OfflineKalypto
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18081587 - 04/09/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I tried LC in a SAB still got contams with super sterile tek when i dont even get contams with my agar
Everyone always said not to do lc and i didnt listen


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: Kalypto]
    #18081593 - 04/09/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kalypto said:
I tried LC in a SAB still got contams with super sterile tek when i dont even get contams with my agar
Everyone always said not to do lc and i didnt listen




We all do it man. I lost a project of 24 tubs due to an LC syringe that got a contam after testing it :facepalm:
Some people get away with it. I just don't see the benefit when agar is so much more forgiving and almost as easy to use.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
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You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
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OfflineKalypto
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18081596 - 04/09/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed agar with G2g is the best option IMO


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: Kalypto]
    #18081637 - 04/09/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I have shunned all forms of LC and frankly I don't trust anything in a syringe anymore. However I am curious about how well an agar wedge works for stone producers. I just got an ALT#7 print yesterday and am eager to get them on agar asap. I have heard it said that stone producers are prone to stalling after the shake, or G2G. I'm wondering if this is accurate or is another myth similar to the one that you can't shake pan's (every time I shook pans they recovered faster than cubes do).

I might be mistaken, but I think I remember that OP used a wedge for his stone producers. Have you shaken them yet and if so, how well did they recover?


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Offlineinvitro


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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #18633189 - 07/30/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have that much experience with lc but I have had ok luck with it so far.  I went from spore syringe to lc to grain jar.  I used rtv injection ports and injected through alcohol soaked sponge as well.  nocked up 30 1/2 pints in the open air on kitchen table.  Failure rate was about 20%, g2g in sab gives me about 5-10% fail rate.  I'd probably have done better with lc in a sab.  I put 5cc into a quart jar and it still took way longer than g2g to finish colonizing (2-3 weeks).  I mostly do g2g though, it takes about 1 week or less to finish.  The potential for massive fail is probably higher with lc so I'd be careful with it if you try it.

Although possibly a rare situation, if you had to start from scratch and ramp up production fast, or found a great isolate and wanted to
multiply fast, lc could be very useful because of it's ability to inoculate many jars. 

Also, with strains that don't handle g2g well, lc could also be useful, so I'm glad the info on lc is out there.


Edited by invitro (07/30/13 01:16 PM)


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Invisibleanne halonium
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: invitro]
    #18633246 - 07/30/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

ill more /less endorse your premise frank,
im not a big believer in LC's either.
they work, but the typical grower will have issues sometimes indeed.

of course frank , we would differ on types of agar, and details.

in spite of that, frank has some  valid points about agar utility.
and good agar practice, leads to best reliable grows.......




--------------------
:aliendance:


Edited by anne halonium (07/30/13 10:47 AM)


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Offlinecoffeehead
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18633562 - 07/30/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I have a perfect application for LC, so I'm going to use it.

Two quick questions before I explain why:

1) How full should I fill my quart jars to ensure their filters don't get wet during pressure cooking?

2) How long do I need to pressure cook the LC medium? I've read many references here that liquids need as little as 15 minutes of pressure cooking to sterilize them. Most of what I've "learned" here, however, turns out to be wrong. I plan on pressure cooking for 45 minutes - is that too long?

On to my maniacal plan:

I made some outdoor azurescens beds but nature bit me in the ass on one of them. I prepared the bed on a cloudy day and later found out that the bed gets too much direct sunlight during mid-day. The chipmunks and shrews also decided to use it as place to tunnel. So I moved the bed to another spot and filled the old one with new wood chips in case there was some residual mycelium left to colonize it*. The particular bed that got spoiled had been inoculated with jars of 50/50 rye/wood chips so there was very little grain to attract the rodents. I think they mostly liked the texture and location of the original bed because they didn't bother either of my two other beds (one of which was colonized with straight grain).

While moving the disturbed bed I was disappointed with how little colonization had taken place since I first established it. Sans agar and running out of Summer, I don't have the time to grow a couple of more jars of grain to add to it. I also didn't want to break up the chunks of mycelium had taken hold. So I'm going to fortify it by injecting it with LC.

Since I'm growing azurescens outdoors I figure that unless my LC is horribly contaminated it's highly unlikely this can do any harm. Plus, I covered the old bed with wet cardboard and the critters are now digging outside the bed (for some reason they seem to really dislike the cardboard). This gives me a chance to establish a fourth bed - in a few weeks the (formerly) old one will be getting much less sun.

According to a generic website about wood lovers, I've got 30 - 45 days until a hard freeze to establish a mycelium bed that will be able to go dormant during the Winter. Using LC, it sounds like I have plenty of time for this to work, at least on my existing beds.

I bought way too many azurescens syringes (noob mistake) and I figure I've got nothing to lose. I plan on adding about a quart of LC to each bed using a flavor injector.

Other than the fact that it might not work, what's wrong with my idea?

I figure that the effort/payoff odds are good enough to give it a try.

Anybody see any fatal flaw here?


* I pulled one of the azurescen tubs out of the corner of my garage where it sat for weeks after I emptied it outside. A nice tiny bit of mycelium was thriving on some wet bits of wood left inside.


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OfflineMelMush
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18888296 - 09/25/13 08:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Just a newbie giving you thanks for this. That's right, from a "newbie" point of view, LC seems easier than agar, and I was about to start doing LC. Thanks to this I'll change my mind and go with agar, thanks for opening eyes to newbs!
Cheers!


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Invisibleazur
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: MelMush]
    #18888350 - 09/25/13 08:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Franky, I love lcs, but I also have been doing this for quite some time.  Only once, and just recently did I think I had a problem with it.  Turned out to be I'll pasteurization.
For me, lc is just so much simpler and faster than g2g. To each their own. Though I would agree with you and say folks should start with agar.


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FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
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InvisibleSmeagol
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: azur]
    #18889269 - 09/25/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

This thread and members saved me from doing an LC. Did a MS to WBS but will be starting agar work friday! Also seems a spore syringe could be exponentially increased. Rather than 1cc per jar you use a drop or two per petri. Knowing Ill be doing agar makes me feel more scientific.


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The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but it is not paved with clarity.” -Terence

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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: Smeagol]
    #19171737 - 11/21/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I realize this thread is really old but thought I should post in it because I was going to make a thread on how awesome LC is for beginners. I have only been in the hobby for 2 months but I have been a science major for years with a good amount of lab work under my belt. To me doing LC is far superior in resource management and time over MS. My first 8mL of spores was used on 8 cake jars. Not only is MS inoculation slow, but I also had to wait a week just to see if I was sterile enough. The next 12mL of spore fluid I made liters of LC! Each jar I got to see the next day they had no contams, as my LC was perfectly clear (4% Karo in distilled water). I could have introduced contams just as easy doing both, and actually easier with the cakes because I have to innoc 4 times rather than once. Now I make a LC syringe any day I want and its practically like getting a new spore syringe. I do all of my LC work in open air in my room, agar you absolutely cannot do in open air. I keep the liquid an inch under the rim so no problem of ever getting the filter wet, unless I turned the jar upside down. I have magnetic stirrers in each jar to agitate the LC too. Also the silicon injection ports last longer than the LC will(unless you're making ridiculous gallon jars) so no need to worry about that. If you use the same lids as your cakes you'll have 4 ports to wear out as well, and I've still yet to wear one out in my two months. Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to turn anyone away from agar. I love working with agar and plan to start doing isolates soon. Plus all of the benefits you've mentioned. However with agar you need to have good lab technique and a minimum of a SAB, far more required than simple LC. If I had a 10mL spore syringe all over again I would use it all in LC's. It has also saved me from having to learn cloning or making spore syringes starting off, something I can now take my time with because I have plenty of LC to keep my grows going. The two things I wish I knew about before I started growing are grain monotubs and LC


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: stonedboss]
    #19172837 - 11/21/13 10:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

stonedboss said:
I realize this thread is really old but thought I should post in it because I was going to make a thread on how awesome LC is for beginners.




It is not awesome for beginners at all, you got lucky. A man of science like yourself must know that even the crappiest techniques can sometimes work out :shrug:

You're talking to a guy who runs 20 monos a month on average :lol:

My resource management is on point and requires no liquid cultures at all...at least not for cubensis.

:2cents:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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Offlinestonedboss
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19173155 - 11/21/13 11:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Haha I know, you're pretty awesome with that. I've read almost all of your teks and have done a couple already. I trust your opinion :thumbup:, especially with grains and monos. However I know that a crappy technique doesn't tend to work out 50+ times perfectly, without a single contam. Even still I could be lucky, but the sterile technique to inoculate a LC jar is identical to innoculating any other growth medium (except for agar). Also, all of my cakes and LC jars have been incubated immediately at 80-82F, I've even been ballsy enough to put some jars straight into 85F. So they were definately contam free. I'd love to be at the point of not needing LC's like you, but for starting from scratch with 10-20mL of spore solution its the best use of resources imo. Also this tek is pretty nifty, it's much better than plain open air but cheaper and easier than a SAB or HEPA filter.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: stonedboss]
    #19173160 - 11/22/13 12:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Once you run into some contams, you'll feel differently.

You're in what I like to call the "honeymoon" period :wink:

And the tek you referenced is by Citric, one of my favorite and most respected TCs. It works for him and for some, but considering the state of my old-ass house I would never trust it for bulk grows at this scale.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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Offlinestonedboss
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19173338 - 11/22/13 01:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
Once you run into some contams, you'll feel differently.

You're in what I like to call the "honeymoon" period :wink:

And the tek you referenced is by Citric, one of my favorite and most respected TCs. It works for him and for some, but considering the state of my old-ass house I would never trust it for bulk grows at this scale.




You may be completely right about the honeymoon period, but I have tried it and you haven't. You just said it works for Citric and others, meaning it works. You have yet to try it on your own and if you are any man of science at all yourself you would know that your speculation means nothing until you test it yourself. Anecdotal evidence isn't very strong but it is stronger than no evidence.

Quote:

stonedboss said:
I could have introduced contams just as easy doing both, and actually easier with the cakes because I have to innoc 4 times rather than once. Now I make a LC syringe any day I want and its practically like getting a new spore syringe.



Quote:

stonedboss said:
Even still I could be lucky, but the sterile technique to inoculate a LC jar is identical to innoculating any other growth medium (except for agar). Also, all of my cakes and LC jars have been incubated immediately at 80-82F, I've even been ballsy enough to put some jars straight into 85F. So they were definately contam free. .




You seemed to completely ignore my point about it being as easy to introduce contams innoculating anything else. If you just have a spore syringe you can't do G2G like you. Also, when making a new spore syringe there is even more room for contam than just LC's. So if you are sterile enough to print and make a sterile syringe you can definately do LC's.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: stonedboss]
    #19173366 - 11/22/13 01:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Did you seriously come to my thread to argue a tired point that many a new cultivator has tried to make? :lol:

You can do G2G with a spore syringe. Knock up a master jar, and G2G it from there.

I don't need to explain further, my points you are arguing are laid out clearly in my OP and the responses I have provided.

Contam on agar can be saved 9 times out of 10 and is visible to the naked eye.

LC needs to be tested before every use.

Waste of time, resources, and potential crop loss if you cut even a small corner.

To me the answer is obvious :shrug:

If it works for you it works. But don't expect me to advocate it or tell you it is a good idea for newbies :shrug:

Come back in a year and let me know what you think then, yes? :thumbup:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19173371 - 11/22/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

stonedboss said:
You may be completely right about the honeymoon period, but I have tried it and you haven't.





PS. I have tried many open air inoculations and LC techniques, Citric's included. Don't tell me what I have or have not tried :whack:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/22/13 01:50 AM)


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Offlinestonedboss
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19173465 - 11/22/13 02:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
Did you seriously come to my thread to argue a tired point that many a new cultivator has tried to make? :lol:

You can do G2G with a spore syringe. Knock up a master jar, and G2G it from there.

I don't need to explain further, my points you are arguing are laid out clearly in my OP and the responses I have provided.

Contam on agar can be saved 9 times out of 10 and is visible to the naked eye.

LC needs to be tested before every use.

Waste of time, resources, and potential crop loss if you cut even a small corner.

To me the answer is obvious :shrug:

If it works for you it works. But don't expect me to advocate it or tell you it is a good idea for newbies :shrug:

Come back in a year and let me know what you think then, yes? :thumbup:





Yes because you are forcing personal preference as factual evidence, and I strongly believe LC is a great method for beginners. I didn't mean to start a hostile fight in your thread, but I cannot stand for ignorance. You have done nothing to progress this discussion besides belittle my skill compared to yours and come off as arrogant and offensive just because my opinion differs from yours. I have been trying to be as civilized and unoffensive as I could be in pointing out what I believe are your oversights.

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
I don't need to explain further, my points you are arguing are laid out clearly in my OP and the responses I have provided.





You feel you don't have to address a point because you've been doing this longer than me? No, you do need to explain further because you contradict yourself.

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
There is a misconception among new growers that using agar is difficult and LCs are an attractive alternative. It is backwards: LC is not for beginners while agar is very helpful for them.



Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
I just don't see the benefit when agar is so much more forgiving and almost as easy to use.




You state agar is easier for beginners in the first post during your LC bash rant, yet say agar is "almost as easy" to use as LC later on.

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:

stonedboss said:
You may be completely right about the honeymoon period, but I have tried it and you haven't.





PS. I have tried many open air inoculations and LC techniques, Citric's included. Don't tell me what I have or have not tried :whack:




Yeah I think I have to tell you what you have or have not tried because you cannot keep track yourself.

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
It works for him and for some, but considering the state of my old-ass house I would never trust it for bulk grows at this scale.



You are either saying you have never tried it, or have tried it but have not failed. Either way you have no room to talk as to that innoculating method's shortcomings. Unless you are very poor at conveying your meaning and have data of failures you've been hiding.

Posters in this thread have already mentioned you shied them away from LC when it could have been a great start for them. You explicitly said beginners shouldn't do LC. I am not advocating it is the best method, or even better than agar or grain. What I am saying is that it is a good method that is easier than either of the above, requiring less equipment and thus easier to start for a beginner. Everyone knows nothing comes close to sterilizing like a PC, yet you still see beginners doing PF tek without a PC. You don't even need a PC for LC!  Why do you keep ignoring the fact that knocking up a master jar has the same chance to introduce contams as an LC? You are syringe innoculating, not G2G. You G2G AFTER you've done a successful spore syringe inoculation, the same it takes to get an LC jar started. With G2G you also need a SAB, and if you're doing LC work in a SAB and contaminating then you aren't using an SAB correctly. As I've mentioned one of the benefits on LC is no SAB required. I don't care if you advocate it, just don't advocate that innoculating a jar with a syringe is different than innoculating a jar with a syringe. Or that LC is a bad start for beginners. I've lost a lot of respect for you in the way you've handled this conversation.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: LC vs GLC vs Agar: A guide for new/skeptical growers [Re: stonedboss]
    #19173534 - 11/22/13 03:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Way to advertise your ignorance stonedboss. Lc most definitely has a place in mushroom Cultivation. I use them for galindoi and so does frank. He is simply trying to state that lc is very risky for noobs and agar is a much better option.

FrankHorrigan has a lot of respect in this community for good reason so trust me when I say that you're not going to make any friends around here acting like that. Spend some time with your mouth shut and your ears open.


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