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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination
    #1806234 - 08/12/03 05:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I picked up this book "the making of a counter culture" by theodore roszak.
Quote:

....at the bottom of that howl, ginsberg discovered what it was that the bourgeois god moloch was most intent upon burying alive: the curative powers of the visionary imagination. In making that discovery, ginsberg uncovered at the heart of the poem what every artist has found in the creative process, to one degree or another.



and from the back page summary:
Quote:

...he then turns his (roszak) attention to "the myth of objective consciousness," and suggests that a culture which subordinates or degrades visionary experience commits the sin of diminishing our existence.......so that, finally, "the primary project of our counter culture is to proclaim a new heaven and a new earth so vast, so marvelous that the inordinate claims of technical expertise must of necessity withdraw to a subordinate and marginal status in the lives of men."




yeah, and we should all spread out and live on little family artist farms. exodus from the cities!

(ed. what's really odd is I found this book next to a compilation of ayn rand papers on my moms bookshelf. ?)


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Edited by Malachi (08/12/03 05:13 PM)


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Registered: 09/04/02
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Malachi]
    #1806728 - 08/12/03 07:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"a culture which subordinates or degrades visionary experience commits the sin of diminishing our existence"

Hmm, almost sounds like our own :smile:


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1808281 - 08/13/03 04:26 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

*bump*


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Malachi]
    #1808378 - 08/13/03 06:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, everyone puts down experiences on drugs as not having basis in reality, since it is a drug and all.. An experience you get while snowboarding is different, too, and relies on the tool to get the experience, the snowboard. People claim that the only experiences valid are "normal" ones, but what are normal ones? Ever ride a rollercoaster? That is something that the body can not do on its own, get that kind of experience, you have to rely on the rollercoaster to get that equally valid experience.

So, it is a little different with drugs, since it is a chemical going into your body, but that doesn't unvalid it, so to speak. To the next person who says "Ahh, that doesn't count, or it isn't real, it is just a drug, I will just slap them and condemn their ignorance...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1808831 - 08/13/03 11:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Ahh, that doesn't count, or it isn't real, it is just a drug, I will just slap them and condemn their ignorance...

So the naked kid with a knife who was just shot & killed while shrooming because he thought the police car was a monster about to devour him and stabbed it, was obviously having a "real" experience.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Swami]
    #1810322 - 08/13/03 06:31 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Ahh, that doesn't count, or it isn't real, it is just a drug, I will just slap them and condemn their ignorance...

So the naked kid with a knife who was just shot & killed while shrooming because he thought the police car was a monster about to devour him and stabbed it, was obviously having a "real" experience.




Well, it obviously doesn't fit in with your normal, "undrugged" experiences, and there isn't a lot of similiarity crossovers. He was having a real experience, but it obviously wasn't in accordance with what was in normal reality, now was it?

And, as tragic as it is and all, the concept of one being naked and stabbing a police car with a knife, with officers inside is rather hilarious, although what happened as an outcome is not.. hehe. I haven't really seen someone stab a car with a knive before. It is a fucked up situation, though, and very unfortunate. A lot of extra care is required when tripping... a sober guide perhaps, or a lot of experience... a strong mind, too. That kind of shit needs to be prevented, it doesn't make anyone that does mushrooms look good in this day and age..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Swami]
    #1811056 - 08/13/03 09:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Ahh, that doesn't count, or it isn't real, it is just a drug, I will just slap them and condemn their ignorance...

So the naked kid with a knife who was just shot & killed while shrooming because he thought the police car was a monster about to devour him and stabbed it, was obviously having a "real" experience.




well, that would be the bad part, but the good is too important to stifle for a few ill equipped/prepared individuals. you know, heavenly earth and all.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Malachi]
    #1811197 - 08/13/03 10:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I thought allen ginsberg was a type of plant or root

anyways, if the experience took place, than it was real.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Malachi]
    #1813482 - 08/14/03 02:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Our society... has come to thrive on consumption. They buy their clothes at Gap, Abercrombie, Old Navy, They live and drive in the same 20 mile radius. They dont have to think about anything. They find their individuality in the car they drive. I think this is the aim of what these papers are trying to say, how that kills the visionary imagination, of looking beyond the status quo. But the "system" has gotten so good that its gotten people so lazy they dont think about their own imagination, save what they want to do for "fun".

I dont think his intent is to say we should all drop everything... (and im going to try and merge this with Ayn Rands ideas). I think what Ayn Rand meant, was to live in a world where mankind would persue its own destiny, that each individual was to be looked upon as something whole. Not that this is some kind of inborn morality, that if we believe in something higher will automatically come to us... Nothing like that. We have to work for our lives, we have USE our imagination, USE our hands if we are to build a place for ourselves.

If no one here has read any of ayn rands books i highly reccomend reading them. Anthem was a GREAT book, and im currently reading The Fountainhead.

a few quote's from the introduction.

Quote:

A brief dialogue between Roark and Hopton Stoddard, which may be misunderstood if taken out of context: "'You're a profoundly religious man, Mr. Roark-in your own way. I can see that in your buildings."
"Thats True,'said Roark"
In the contect of that scene, however, the meaning is clear: it is Roarks profound dedication to values, to the highest and best, to the ideal, that Stoddard is referring to(see his explanation of the nature of the supposed temple). The erection of the Stoddard Temple and the subsequent trial state the issue explicitly.

Religions Monopoly in the field of ethics has made it extremely difficult to communicate the emotional meaning and connotations of a reational view of life. Just as religion has pre-empted the field of ethics, turning morality against man, so it has usurped the highest moral concepts of our language, placing them outside this earth and beyond man's reach.





just thought i might add that in for anyone interested and seeing kind of what thats about. peacea


--------------------
What?


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1813512 - 08/14/03 02:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

ayn rand is most definitely guilty of subordinating visionary imagination. she was totally anti-mystic, which is essentially what ginsberg was, a mystic in the ilk of blake.

ayn rand was a psychotic bitch. andy warhol didn't like her. you shouldn't either. read this

http://www.2think.org/02_2_she.shtml


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: allen ginsberg : curative powers of visionary imagination [Re: Malachi]
    #1813682 - 08/14/03 03:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Wasn't she in Playboy? hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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