Home | Community | Message Board


Sporeworks
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
The double standards of dissent...
    #1805095 - 08/12/03 12:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Having Dished It Out . . .

By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Tuesday, August 12, 2003; Page A13

Isn't the hatred shown our president just awful, especially when we face such serious challenges to our national security?

One major politician called the administration's policies an "abject national embarrassment."

A former national security official said the president "has squandered American credibility and undermined our preeminence around the world." Another highly respected foreign policy expert said the administration "has not been able to distinguish between professorial concepts and foreign policy."

A key House leader insisted that "the president does not have the divine right of a king." He accused the administration of providing the public with "the spin, the whole spin, and nothing but the spin."

An important senator called the president "a jerk," and a House member said: "He still looks like a small man in a big office and an illegitimate president."

Terrible, terrible stuff. These politicians clearly don't know what the thoughtful conservative writer David Brooks knows: that politics should not take on a "lurid and emotional tone," and that it's self-defeating to indulge "the hypercharged tendency to believe the absolute worst about one's political opponents."

Brooks, writing in the Weekly Standard in June, was trashing Democrats for their intense dislike of President Bush. But every one of the comments I cited above was an attack by a Republican on Bill Clinton when he was president.

The first quotation about the administration being a "national embarrassment" came from Dick Cheney -- he was referring to Clinton's policy toward Haiti. You presume our vice president will now defend the right of all Democrats to dissent from the current administration's foreign policy.

It was James A. Baker III, the first President Bush's secretary of state, who said Clinton had squandered American credibility. The guy who trashed professors was former professor Henry Kissinger. The comments about the king of spin came from the inimitable Tom DeLay, now the House Republican majority leader.

It was Sen. Orrin Hatch who called Clinton a "jerk," and Republican Bob Dornan, then a congressman, who described Clinton as both "small" and "illegitimate." Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.) actually called Clinton a "scumbag" -- surely, in Brooks's terms, a "lurid and emotional" way to refer to the commander in chief.

It is thus hilarious that Republicans have been so self-righteous against Democrats who have had the nerve to behave as an opposition and challenge President Bush's credibility. Republicans are telling Democrats: "Don't you dare do what we did." It's equally amusing, but also depressing, that hypocrisy isn't being called by its real name.

This moment's fashionable subject, the California recall, was born out the very sort of political hatred that Republicans condemn when it's directed at Bush. But it certainly doesn't bother Arnold Schwarzenegger that his chance to start a political career has come courtesy of the partisan animosity against California Gov. Gray Davis that forced the recall election.

Nor does the hatred of Davis bother Bush, who has spoken kindly of the Terminator. That's because Bush understands that one force that pushed him into the White House was the partisan loathing created by Cheney, Baker, DeLay and the rest during the Clinton years. The president can't begrudge Arnold his opportunity. But Bush also hopes his apologists will intimidate Democrats from attacking him. That's why the Bush camp keeps pretending that raising questions about the president's stewardship is counterproductive and even unpatriotic.

"I am dismayed that so many feel free to engage in partisan attacks on the commander in chief in the midst of war," Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.) wrote in The Post [op-ed, Aug. 3].

This view did not stop the same John Ensign from challenging Clinton in February 1998 over the prospect of airstrikes against Iraq. Clinton, Ensign said then, "has not made the case to Congress to get our support and we are not in a crisis situation." Don't Ensign's comments sound awfully close to what Howard Dean has said about the war against Iraq in 2003?

In fairness, when Clinton's airstrikes against Iraq eventually came in the midst of the impeachment fight in December 1998, Ensign called them "a necessary action," not something every Republican said at the time. But Ensign could not resist adding: "You certainly have to question the timing." Democrats who asked why the buildup to the war in Iraq was so widely advertised before the 2002 elections were, one presumes, equally justified in questioning "the timing."

It is not at all astonishing that partisans would claim that their own political attacks are morally justified while the opposition's assaults are wretched exercises in partisanship. What is astonishing is that anyone would take such claims seriously.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46937-2003Aug11.html


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1805290 - 08/12/03 01:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

AAAH! You're not supposed to post shit like this. Good luck at your next airport security check, you're now probably on Bush's infamous potential terrorist list!!!


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFileSoup
member
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 142
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1805627 - 08/12/03 02:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Good post. Everyone in America has the right to disagree.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1805724 - 08/12/03 03:10 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I just noticed something peculiar. Never once did i have any animosity towards clinton. Im 22 now, so i was young and uninterested in politics at that time. Over the last year though i can't recall how much negativity i have toward bush, america, and thier foregn policies. Much of this stemming from such things as the patriot act being passed and the rave act...i see it as people in power deciving a nation for thier own benefit.

But anyway what im realizing is that this negativety is constant. No matter who is in charge or what they do it will be the same misinformation and emotion game to curry support for some, and dissent to others. In fact the more i read the more stupid it all seems. Why would i even care of such things? Life is too short and all one can do is be true you thierself and live as best they can. Politics are all the same, no party is better than another, and or society is a clusterfuck waiting to explode.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1806021 - 08/12/03 04:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

All so-called "representatives" are frauds and theives and bullies.

Representative democracy is based upon faith in these "wise-ones" who know best for us, who supposedly represent us. I have never met George Bush, nor will I ever met him, but yet he exerts authority over me and tells me how to run my own life.

Political and economic authoritarianism and hierarchy are poisionous elements in our lives that need to be dissolved. We all need to start taking care of ourselves and our communities ourselves and not hand over our own responsibilities and decision-making power to a bunch of elitist assholes.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: iglou]
    #1806180 - 08/12/03 04:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You are right iglou. :thumbup:


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: iglou]
    #1807974 - 08/13/03 01:40 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

On the other hand would you rather live in a country where the government is even more submissive to big business than America? Where corporations can drive wages down to 6-8 cents a day, put children to work, brutalise and slaughter union officals and devastate the environment with impunity?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 12 years, 27 days
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1808000 - 08/13/03 01:51 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Big government and big business might as well be the same thing,and in our society they are pretty much in bed with each other anyway.

That's why I'm so against the libertarian idea of unrestricted capatalism. It would be the same shit with a different name.



--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by grandmasterfat (08/13/03 01:56 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: monoamine]
    #1808337 - 08/13/03 05:20 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No doubt about it. Republicans and Democrats are alike in that regard.


Vote Green


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1808956 - 08/13/03 12:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)


On the other hand would you rather live in a country where the government is even more submissive to big business than America? Where corporations can drive wages down to 6-8 cents a day, put children to work, brutalise and slaughter union officals and devastate the environment with impunity?

Why exactly is that the other hand?

But to answer your question: of course not. I think hierarchial and authoritarian power relations in political/economic form is a gross attack on individual liberty.

Corporate capitalism is a parasite propped up by the guns and dirty money of the state.

here are two excellent essays on the subject: Libertarian Property and Privatization: An Alternative Paradigm

The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand - Corporate Capitalism As a State-Guaranteed System of Privilege






Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1809000 - 08/13/03 12:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
On the other hand would you rather...



What are you saying by, 'on the other hand?' Are you saying that iglou's ideas would lead to the situations you describe?

Let's look at a few of his statements...

Quote:

All so-called "representatives" are frauds and theives and bullies.



Sounds like he mistrusts the power seekers. Nothing wrong with that.

Quote:

Representative democracy is based upon faith in these "wise-ones" who know best for us, who supposedly represent us.



Again, he seems to have doubts about people who want to rule. It appears that he thinks faith in them is misplaced. He doubts that they truly represent us (there is ample evidence to support this contention).

Quote:

Political and economic authoritarianism and hierarchy are poisionous elements in our lives that need to be dissolved.



This doesn't seem like he is advocating something which would lead to living 'in a country where the government is even more submissive to big business than America' or 'where corporations can drive wages down to 6-8 cents a day, put children to work, brutalise and slaughter union officals and devastate the environment with impunity.' Is that the way you're reading it?

Quote:

We all need to start taking care of ourselves and our communities ourselves and not hand over our own responsibilities and decision-making power to a bunch of elitist assholes.



An excellent point that sums it up quite nicely. If history is any guide, it shows us that when the people vest too much power in ANYONE, ANY GROUP or ANY INSTITUTION, that the common man invariably suffers. We must take individual resposibility to help out our neighbors, to engage in and support just actions by making conscious decisions in regards to who and what our actions support and how they affect our fellow man and our environment. We should not farm everything out to beauracracies. Because guess what, when you rely on large governmental institutions (who because they make and enforce the laws, are above the laws) you have a concentration of power which is readily available for corruption. Those with the means, the will and the desire WILL find ways to influence or control such power.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1809004 - 08/13/03 01:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

exactly.

(fuck the state)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFileSoup
member
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 142
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: iglou]
    #1809284 - 08/13/03 02:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"Political and economic authoritarianism and hierarchy are poisionous elements in our lives that need to be dissolved. We all need to start taking care of ourselves and our communities ourselves and not hand over our own responsibilities and decision-making power to a bunch of elitist assholes. "

Do you have a better idea for how to run our country? Maybe you should be in politics if you do.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: FileSoup]
    #1809499 - 08/13/03 03:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FileSoup said:
Do you have a better idea for how to run our country? Maybe you should be in politics if you do.



If you had understood Iglou's posts and/or read and understood the links he provided, you would realize that your statement is like saying, "If you don't believe people should be ruled, maybe you should become ruler."


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1810137 - 08/13/03 05:57 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

hehe no thanks.

I'd rather become more and more self-sufficient and independent from the state/corporations all the while helping to forge a shadow economy (a true free market sans capitalist corportism) within my local community. I'd rather evolve emotionally and intellectually while I participate in the evolution of my community.

simple as that :smile: I think I could do more "good" by avoiding, dissolving, and evolving past authoritarianism.

   


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: The double standards of dissent... [Re: iglou]
    #1810369 - 08/13/03 06:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting. Those articles are from a mutualist anarchism website, and while mutualist anarchists are opposed to Government, they are also very critical of laissez faire capitalism, and mainstream libertarianism. Mutualists believe big corporations should be owned by the workers, rather than wealthy individuals or the state (a very socialist concept, except ownership remains private).

It's an interesting concept. But I think this is something that has never been discussed on these boards before (to my knowledge). You've given out the links many times now, and no one's ever commented on them before (probably because the articles are WAAAY to long). Maybe you should start a new thread on "Mutualist anarchism", and be sure to give your own summary of the concept without just pointing people to the links, because very few people will take the time to read something that long without knowing what the articles are about first (I'll confess, I didn't bother reading the entire articles, they were just too long - so correct me if anything I said is incorrect).


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Media's Liberal-Leaning Double Standard
( 1 2 3 4 all )
TheOneYouKnow 3,026 63 03/04/04 09:01 PM
by zappaisgod
* The OSCE Criticizes Russia: Double Standards, Not “Gold Standard” Arp 395 1 12/04/07 07:21 PM
by Arp
* The Don Imus double standard....here we go again Hank, FTW 948 12 04/25/07 02:41 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Bush by numbers: Four years of double standards Xlea321 380 2 09/06/04 01:43 PM
by Strumpling
* liberals Double Standard
( 1 2 3 all )
lonestar2004 1,724 42 11/20/04 04:03 AM
by kadakuda
* Double standards for Independence BrAiN 573 8 02/27/08 09:46 PM
by lonestar2004
* peterson case shows double standard of justice...
Annapurna1
603 10 11/13/04 08:39 PM
by vampirism
* Liberal Double Standars luvdemshrooms 411 3 07/31/03 08:10 PM
by silversoul7

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
728 topic views. 1 members, 19 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Azarius
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.046 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 19 queries.