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 Midnight_Toker
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Loc: Canada 
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 Autism and Evolution 
#17988657 - 03/21/13 09:40 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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In recent years the rates of autism seem to have been climbing. Part of me wonders if this is only so because more and more people have been diagnosed with aspergers when in fact they're just children who have suffered through improper parenting in their lives, but part of me wonders if there's something more.
I don't know the statistics, but one in every so many autistics is born a savant; meaning they are able to grasp a concept, be it math, art, music, memory, etc.. With absolute ease and total finesse. It's as if they skip a step in the learning process and find a shorter and exponentially more efficient route to solve the problems they excel at.
This brings up the question; could autism perhaps be the first step on the way to the next stage of our species' evolution? There may be only a small percentage of savants on the Autistic spectrum as of now, but we've only started to see a rise in diagnoses in the recent past. Is it not possible that over time, through trial, error and natural selection, that low functioning autism rates will eventually drop while the number of savants being born will begin to dramatically rise?
As an afterthought, do you think it's possible that the more evolutionarily advanced a species becomes, the more prone they may be to making large leaps in evolution in smaller and smaller amounts of time?
Edited by Midnight_Toker (03/21/13 09:48 AM)
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Icelander
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Interesting because I just watched the movie Temple Grandin last night. Her case is beyond interesting and I can only say I wish most of humanity was more like her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin
An absolutely great movie btw.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17988894 - 03/21/13 10:37 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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You wish more people were freakshows like her?
My friend Emily Gershon Saines was the producer on that movie and won an emmy for it. She was the main mover. She has a son who is almost hockey helmet. I have known about Temple Grandin since Oliver Sachs wrote about her. She has managed to make her way. It is very rare for nutcases like her to be able to come close to taking care of themselves. More of her we do not need.
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Morghast
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989055 - 03/21/13 11:16 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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I've thought the same thing before. It seems to be a counter to societies obsession with social interaction and co-dependence. If you know anything of the dmt elves and telepathy you'll understand why speech is becoming less a efficient medium of communication. On that note, psychedelics seem to help with Alzheimer's, cluster headaches, migraines,asperger's, autism etc. Probably by re-balancing serotonin levels.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Morghast] 1
#17989077 - 03/21/13 11:22 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Honestly I have this hunch that it could be the use of thinking without language which makes savants excel. Language is great for explaining things, but it's obviously much slower to think of a concept in language than it is to simply grasp that concept as a whole with nothing but understanding. Language may be holding us back.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Morghast]
#17989142 - 03/21/13 11:38 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Morghast said:
I've thought the same thing before. It seems to be a counter to societies obsession with social interaction and co-dependence. If you know anything of the dmt elves and telepathy you'll understand why speech is becoming less a efficient medium of communication. On that note, psychedelics seem to help with Alzheimer's, cluster headaches, migraines,asperger's, autism etc. Probably by re-balancing serotonin levels.
Ummmm no.
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Honestly I have this hunch that it could be the use of thinking without language which makes savants excel. Language is great for explaining things, but it's obviously much slower to think of a concept in language than it is to simply grasp that concept as a whole with nothing but understanding. Language may be holding us back.
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#17989150 - 03/21/13 11:40 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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You wish more people were freakshows like her?
Compared to a freakshow like you. YES!
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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There is at least one case of a diagnosis of asperger's that was "out-grown." To me, this suggests misdiagnosis, since autism supposedly has a genetic basis. There are probably others who were just awkward kids and their parents fell prey to media hype. That being said, I do believe autism is a real occurrence. Could it be an evolutionary advantage? Idk, it seems disadvantageous to be less than wieldly in social situations, humans being social by nature and all that (and savantism doesn't guarantee non-comorbidity with an intellectual handicap, such as retardation, see Rainman). It could be plausible that its exponential increase in prevelance is due to our changing lifestyles (i.e., we have babies at older ages). However, it's obvious that autism can present advantages, like OP mentioned. I'll link an article about a Denmark business integrating autist's into their model : http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/magazine/the-autism-advantage.html
All that said, it could be evolution. IIRC, a mutation in jaw formation allowed humans to have bigger brains, so I can't discount it especially since autism doesn't always present itself detrimentally.
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full blown human
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17989198 - 03/21/13 11:47 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You wish more people were freakshows like her?
Compared to a freakshow like you. YES!
That is fucking ignorant. Her life is hell and so is her family's and so is the life of everybody who suffers from this or is close to it. She mostly gets trotted out as a sideshow freak for a living now. You live as an opt out cloistered aesthete with almost no attachment to the real world and you have the nerve to wish more people would have to deal with a horrible affliction. Is it for your amusement? Do you wish more people would have visible tumors so you can marvel at them? More elephant men, perhaps?
Perhaps you should escape the black hole that is your navel sometime.
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989229 - 03/21/13 11:54 AM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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This is the attitude that makes you so lovable. She however works in the other direction. I'll stand by my choice of her over you any day. She's a decent human being and as far as I can see successful far beyond you or I. And from her books she seems quite content. She has also removed a lot of suffering from the world imo. I really don't think you have a case here. I really could care less what you think about her. Makes me appreciate her more.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I can't discount it especially since autism doesn't always present itself detrimentally.
This is what I'm referring to with Temple although some here are too fucking ignorant and filled with bile to get that. I do not see autism per se as an advantage.
I have a friend with Aspergers who is maybe the smartest most successful and happiest person I know. He used to post here as Huehuecoyotl
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Memories
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I have a close friend who is autistic spectrum. He has a half sister who is an invalid.
This kid is one of the smartest people I have ever met. He is amazing at guitar and is getting quite good at EDM production. He has an awesome sense of humor, and is excelling in school while working towards a degree in aerospace engineering.
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Memories
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17989284 - 03/21/13 12:06 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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My dad has Aspergers, but he is a miserable person who was fucked by his childhood. He is still very intelligent and amazing at business.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17989347 - 03/21/13 12:20 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
This is the attitude that makes you so lovable. She however works in the other direction. I'll stand by my choice of her over you any day. She's a decent human being and as far as I can see successful far beyond you or I. And from her books she seems quite content. She has also removed a lot of suffering from the world imo. I really don't think you have a case here. I really could care less what you think about her. Makes me appreciate her more.
You don't know shit about her. All you know is the Hollywood portrayal. She has lived a life of great suffering. As do all autistic people and their families but you, in your opt out ignorance, see only the show. What suffering has she removed? That of steers to slaughter? Wonderful. What has she done for any human? As far as I can tell if fostering ridiculous romantic attitudes like what you seem to have acquired is your answer then she has caused more harm than good. Raising awareness can be a bad thing if it means the awareness that you have. Autistic people suffer and so do their families and it isn't because society is mean to them. They are really and truly afflicted and suffer greatly.
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Memories
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989408 - 03/21/13 12:36 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
This is the attitude that makes you so lovable. She however works in the other direction. I'll stand by my choice of her over you any day. She's a decent human being and as far as I can see successful far beyond you or I. And from her books she seems quite content. She has also removed a lot of suffering from the world imo. I really don't think you have a case here. I really could care less what you think about her. Makes me appreciate her more.
You don't know shit about her. All you know is the Hollywood portrayal. She has lived a life of great suffering. As do all autistic people and their families but you, in your opt out ignorance, see only the show. What suffering has she removed? That of steers to slaughter? Wonderful. What has she done for any human? As far as I can tell if fostering ridiculous romantic attitudes like what you seem to have acquired is your answer then she has caused more harm than good. Raising awareness can be a bad thing if it means the awareness that you have. Autistic people suffer and so do their families and it isn't because society is mean to them. They are really and truly afflicted and suffer greatly.
There is a wide spectrum of autism. The friend who i mentioned has been anything but a burden to his family.
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Honestly I have this hunch that it could be the use of thinking without language which makes savants excel. Language is great for explaining things, but it's obviously much slower to think of a concept in language than it is to simply grasp that concept as a whole with nothing but understanding. Language may be holding us back.
Do you have anything constructive to say rather than just facepalming? I'll be happy to listen to your opinion, that's why I posted this here.
I'm not saying language isn't a great thing, I'm just saying that using language as our root understanding of some concepts may restrict us in how we see and process said concepts.
Quote:
Penelope_Tree said:
Could it be an evolutionary advantage? Idk, it seems disadvantageous to be less than wieldly in social situations, humans being social by nature and all that (and savantism doesn't guarantee non-comorbidity with an intellectual handicap, such as retardation, see Rainman).
There is a large percentage of autistics and even savants who have many disadvantages which make them unlikely to socially fit in or even fit into the work force, but what I'm saying and what you recognized at the end of your post is that not all savant lifestyles are detrimental at all. I'm postulating that perhaps over time the less detrimental genes will be passed on as the more detrimental ones will not, thus giving better and better odds of having more and more completely functional savants over many generations.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989458 - 03/21/13 12:46 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Honestly I have this hunch that it could be the use of thinking without language which makes savants excel. Language is great for explaining things, but it's obviously much slower to think of a concept in language than it is to simply grasp that concept as a whole with nothing but understanding. Language may be holding us back.
Furthermore, there could be a correlation as to why many autistics are very late talkers as children, or even end up mute. Perhaps they find language irrelevant in their thoughts.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Memories]
#17989470 - 03/21/13 12:49 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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ORLY? Every single kid I know who has been diagnosed has been a huge burden and I am in double digit territory here with experience over the entire spectrum. I would posit that you know fuck all about what his internal family dynamics and suffering are.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989492 - 03/21/13 12:53 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
ORLY? Every single kid I know who has been diagnosed has been a huge burden and I am in double digit territory here with experience over the entire spectrum. I would posit that you know fuck all about what his internal family dynamics and suffering are.
The odds are currently greatly in favour of having a very difficult family life if a couple has an autistic child. These days though, we're seeing more and more functional savants and very bright people with aspergers who do very well for themselves. Why can this trend not continue?
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Honestly I have this hunch that it could be the use of thinking without language which makes savants excel. Language is great for explaining things, but it's obviously much slower to think of a concept in language than it is to simply grasp that concept as a whole with nothing but understanding. Language may be holding us back.
Furthermore, there could be a correlation as to why many autistics are very late talkers as children, or even end up mute. Perhaps they find language irrelevant in their thoughts.
If they cannot export their thoughts they are useless.
Many autistics? Fucking bullshit. The vast majority of them are completely dysfunctional and even finding mundane jobs for them is a struggle.
It is a disability. Sometimes it is utterly debilitating. It is not generally some romantic idea of otherly abled crap. Very few escape.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989521 - 03/21/13 01:02 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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You aren't listening to what I'm trying to say.. I understand that it's debilitating for most people, but if it's just the trial and error of natural selection then there's bound to be some fiddling around with the settings before the ideal ones are reached. The point is that while most are low functioning, some people end up miles ahead of the rest of the pack.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
If they cannot export their thoughts they are useless.
That's just like, your opinion man. There are autistic kids who don't speak but are amazing artists. Are they useless because they express themselves through art and not language?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
You aren't listening to what I'm trying to say.. I understand that it's debilitating for most people, but if it's just the trial and error of natural selection then there's bound to be some fiddling around with the settings before the ideal ones are reached. The point is that while most are low functioning, some people end up miles ahead of the rest of the pack.
They are not "miles ahead". They are on a different track altogether, they are almost all "miles behind" and it isn't pleasant for them. It isn't pleasant for them and it isn't pleasant for their families.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
If they cannot export their thoughts they are useless.
That's just like, your opinion man. There are autistic kids who don't speak but are amazing artists. Are they useless because they express themselves through art and not language?
ORLY? Name one.
Stop romanticizing this shit. There is nothing good about it.
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Memories
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989606 - 03/21/13 01:22 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
ORLY? Every single kid I know who has been diagnosed has been a huge burden and I am in double digit territory here with experience over the entire spectrum. I would posit that you know fuck all about what his internal family dynamics and suffering are.
I've known him since elementary school and knew his family quite well. He was one of the most respectful kids I've met whether it be with his family or his teachers. The biggest problem he had was making friends in school because people thought he was weird.
He is a skilled musician in multiple genres from Metal to EDM and is to the point where he is touring within the year. He also attends one of the best engineering schools in the country at which he excels.
It's laughable that you claim I don't know shit about his family dynamics when I've experienced them for years, and you have never met him.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989660 - 03/21/13 01:32 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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What are you so angry about, zappa? You need to take a chill pill man, all we're doing is discussing something and you're about to blow your top. All you're doing is picking pieces out of my argument to fit your views and instead of looking at the whole picture I'm trying to paint.
I UNDERSTAND THAT MOST AUTISTICS ARE LOW FUNCTIONING! But out of the many unfortunate(in relative terms) individuals have emerged some of the most talented people on the planet and there is no denying that, no matter what you say or how little you want to change your mind. Look at Daniel Tammet or Stephen Wiltshire just to name a couple. There are many savants with many amazing talents, and some of them like Tammet are perfectly well adjusted people. Someone like Tammet is much more likely to pass on his genes than a low functioning autistic is, and over time the autistic genes may end up in favour of high functioning autists rather than low.
Now calm down a few notches and stop to think for a second without your biases in the way instead of just immediately denying my argument just to be confrontational like you have done this whole time.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989712 - 03/21/13 01:47 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
This is the attitude that makes you so lovable. She however works in the other direction. I'll stand by my choice of her over you any day. She's a decent human being and as far as I can see successful far beyond you or I. And from her books she seems quite content. She has also removed a lot of suffering from the world imo. I really don't think you have a case here. I really could care less what you think about her. Makes me appreciate her more.
You don't know shit about her. All you know is the Hollywood portrayal. She has lived a life of great suffering. As do all autistic people and their families but you, in your opt out ignorance, see only the show. What suffering has she removed? That of steers to slaughter? Wonderful. What has she done for any human? As far as I can tell if fostering ridiculous romantic attitudes like what you seem to have acquired is your answer then she has caused more harm than good. Raising awareness can be a bad thing if it means the awareness that you have. Autistic people suffer and so do their families and it isn't because society is mean to them. They are really and truly afflicted and suffer greatly.
I've read her own words from her books and heard her speak herself. You're full of shit.
Yes she decreased the suffering of animals that serve us. She has also helped save money for the cattle industry. All people suffer. What would you have us do kill all the autistics or put them in cages. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. A great percentage of her suffering was in the teasing of "normal" people who saw her as a freakshow and refused to take her seriously. Just like you are. She is also an accredited professer educating americans. What exactly have you done that is so fucking superior to any of that? Nothing as far as I can tell.
And as I said but you seem too ignorant to understand (no surprise there) I was speaking of her as an individual and not as autistic per se. I see no advantage in autism per se. I see her as someone very special that has overcome great odds to be a benefit to herself and mankind in general and she happens to be autistic. We need a lot more humans with that kind of spirit imo.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/21/13 02:35 PM)
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KGB Is Go
Сталкер
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I posted this in the Autism thread in The Pub. It relates to your thoughts on evolution, addressed by a mature autistic person. Give it a watch if you're interested - definitely worth the time IMO.
Some extra notes:
- The guy was apparently completely oblivious to the world around him until the age of nine;
- He couldn't speak coherently until the age of 17, at which point he had his IQ tested and it was 137; and
- He couldn't read functionally until the age of 38
Yet in that time he apparently worked as a weapons designer for the US Military (or something) and became a millionaire in business, amongst a bunch of other things.
Quote:
KGB Is Go said:
The interview below (1 part of 2) is with Ron Davis; a guy who has/had severe autism/dyslexia and managed to 'self-correct' and went on to develop a system for helping people function with autism and dyslexia. His life is dedicated to this topic so he's got a fair knowledge base on autism and dyslexia.
The interview gives an amazing insight into autism and the development and operation of the human mind in general. But in this section of the interview I've linked, Davis offers his view on autism, commenting on:
- The 500% increase in incidence in children over last 10 years
- Evolution/Adaptation
- Intelligence
- Future incidence of autism
- Savantism
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"The guy went axe-happy on a trout farm, he killed 60 fish."
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17989919 - 03/21/13 02:37 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
This is the attitude that makes you so lovable. She however works in the other direction. I'll stand by my choice of her over you any day. She's a decent human being and as far as I can see successful far beyond you or I. And from her books she seems quite content. She has also removed a lot of suffering from the world imo. I really don't think you have a case here. I really could care less what you think about her. Makes me appreciate her more.
You don't know shit about her. All you know is the Hollywood portrayal. She has lived a life of great suffering. As do all autistic people and their families but you, in your opt out ignorance, see only the show. What suffering has she removed? That of steers to slaughter? Wonderful. What has she done for any human? As far as I can tell if fostering ridiculous romantic attitudes like what you seem to have acquired is your answer then she has caused more harm than good. Raising awareness can be a bad thing if it means the awareness that you have. Autistic people suffer and so do their families and it isn't because society is mean to them. They are really and truly afflicted and suffer greatly.
I've read her own words from her books and heard her speak herself. You're full of shit.
I'm not full of shit. You see Hollywood and you read her books. Big whoop.
She is one person. Did she not say she suffered? Did she not say her family suffered?Quote:
Yes she decreased the suffering of animals that serve us. She has also helped save money for the cattle industry. All people suffer. What would you have us do kill all the autistics or put them in cages. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. She is also an accredited professer educating americans. What exactly have you done that is so fucking superior to any of that? Nothing as far as I can tell.
Apparently one of the Americans she has failed to educate is you. If she had educated you you wouldn't have posted this stupid shit.
Quote:
Icelander said:
You wish more people were freakshows like her?
Compared to a freakshow like you. YES!
Autism is a horror and whether you think you can harvest the afflicted for some greater good or that they have a net contribution to make you are either deluded or heinous. Did Temple say she was glad that she was autistic? Quote:
And as I said but you seem too ignorant to understand (no surprise there) I was speaking of her as an individual and not as autistic per se. I see no advantage in autism per se. I see her as someone very special that has overcome great odds to be a benefit to herself and mankind in general. We need a lot more humans with that kind of spirit imo.
And in your Idaho cabin you don't see anything else except Hollywood and books. You have opted out of society and this is yet one more example of just how out of touch with the lives of most people you are. For every Temple Grandin, and I can't name one other, there are hundreds of thousands of autistic people who cannot possibly succeed'
After reading your ignorant crap I'm starting to think that the movie may have done more harm than good.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Memories]
#17989931 - 03/21/13 02:40 PM (11 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
ORLY? Every single kid I know who has been diagnosed has been a huge burden and I am in double digit territory here with experience over the entire spectrum. I would posit that you know fuck all about what his internal family dynamics and suffering are.
I've known him since elementary school and knew his family quite well. He was one of the most respectful kids I've met whether it be with his family or his teachers. The biggest problem he had was making friends in school because people thought he was weird.
He is a skilled musician in multiple genres from Metal to EDM and is to the point where he is touring within the year. He also attends one of the best engineering schools in the country at which he excels.
It's laughable that you claim I don't know shit about his family dynamics when I've experienced them for years, and you have never met him.
And just what makes you think he is autistic? Respectfulness is not one feature I have ever heard. If you are autistic you typically do not have the mechanism to be respectful because that kind of thing is out of their conceptual ability. By definition, almost.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17989946 - 03/21/13 02:44 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And just what makes you think he is autistic? Respectfulness is not one feature I have ever heard. If you are autistic you typically do not have the mechanism to be respectful because that kind of thing is out of their conceptual ability. By definition, almost.
PAY ATTENTION and maybe you would have read about 25 times that autism is a spectrum disorder and that that spectrum is varied and changing.
Hey maybe you're autistic because you sure don't know how to be respectful!
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liquidlounge
Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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A lot of generalizing in this thread IMO.
Autists are individuals.
(not directed towards you MT, i replied to OP)
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As far as I assume to know...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And just what makes you think he is autistic? Respectfulness is not one feature I have ever heard. If you are autistic you typically do not have the mechanism to be respectful because that kind of thing is out of their conceptual ability. By definition, almost.
PAY ATTENTION and maybe you would have read about 25 times that autism is a spectrum disorder and that that spectrum is varied and changing.
Hey maybe you're autistic because you sure don't know how to be respectful!
I am fully aware that it is a spectrum. I'm also fully aware that one of the things least likely to be manifested in somebody ostensibly on the spectrum is respectfulness.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17990137 - 03/21/13 03:24 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Unlikely but fully possible. It's also fully possible that Mems friend doesn't have aspergers and was misdiagnosed due to regular old personality quirks coupled with doctors being label happy.
My point still stands that a very small percentage of autistic people surpass ordinary people by leaps and bounds in their area of expertise, while at the same time living relatively normal lives. Therefore it seems to me that the way an autistic's brain develops is much different from a regular individual, and that somewhere in that development lies the blueprints to the next step in our species' evolution. It just has to work out the kinks first and evolution doesn't happen over night.
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod] 2
#17990138 - 03/21/13 03:24 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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 What a joke, you ignore everything I say an hang on to your hate filled diatribes against anyone an anything that isn't like you.
You will never achieve a tenth of what she achieved imo. Nor from your words here do you have a tenth of her decency or humanity. Like the terrified bullies who were so threatened because of her compassion and superior intelligence you feel the need to mock her with labels such as freakshow. Much of her and her families suffering was due to people calling her names and discounting her exactly like you do in your smallness. How fucking pathetic and weak.
And again I'm asking you what have you contributed that is on a par with what she has given to society and the world. Let's hear it big shot. She's better in every way.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/21/13 03:30 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Unlikely but fully possible. It's also fully possible that Mems friend doesn't have aspergers and was misdiagnosed due to regular old personality quirks coupled with doctors being label happy.
My point still stands that a very small percentage of autistic people surpass ordinary people by leaps and bounds in their area of expertise, while at the same time living relatively normal lives. Therefore it seems to me that the way an autistic's brain develops is much different from a regular individual, and that somewhere in that development lies the blueprints to the next step in our species' evolution. It just has to work out the kinks first and evolution doesn't happen over night.
Yes, a very small number of them do. I am going to emphasize the very small. A very small of the rest of the population exceed the norms fabulously.
Autism is a fucking nightmare. All of it. It is a tragedy for everybody involved. And no, it has nothing to do with evolution. The engine of evolution is premature death for the dysfunctional. Without that there can be no genetic evolution. This is not a Childhood's End scenario.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17990248 - 03/21/13 03:47 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
What a joke, you ignore everything I say an hang on to your hate filled diatribes against anyone an anything that isn't like you.
You will never achieve a tenth of what she achieved imo. Nor from your words here do you have a tenth of her decency or humanity. Like the terrified bullies who were so threatened because of her compassion and superior intelligence you feel the need to mock her with labels such as freakshow. Much of her and her families suffering was due to people calling her names and discounting her exactly like you do in your smallness. How fucking pathetic and weak.
And again I'm asking you what have you contributed that is on a par with what she has given to society and the world. Let's hear it big shot. She's better in every way.
I have built many houses. I have also hugged a cow. I am glad that she is doing well. Temple Grandin is not a happy person and Temple Grandin has had a very hard life and it is not because she was called names. She doesn't care about that. She's autistic.
No, her family's suffering was not due to the fact that people called Temple names. It was due to the fact that she was clearly and severely fucked up. Stephen Hawking is severely fucked up. Do you think his wheelchair has made him smarter?
And what the fuck does Temple Grandin have to do with the millions of other people who are on the spectrum to varying degrees? Nothing. And this is why ignorant shit like you spew makes me think that the movie did more harm than good. You get to wipe your brow and think that gee, even autistic people can make something of themselves if everybody only tries hard enough for them. No, dude, no. They are almost all fucked. This isn't a romance novel. It's a fucking nightmare.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17990325 - 03/21/13 04:02 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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I might also point out that though you love the romance of the story of Temple Grandin her intellectual capacity is not a result of her autism Do you think Stephen Hawking's genius is a result of his ALS? Because although I don't know any stupid people with ALS I know a shitload of stupid people with autism. Autism does not make you intelligent. I know lots of people with autism who would be idiots even if they weren't on the spectrum.
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17990375 - 03/21/13 04:14 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Temple Grandin is not a happy person
According to you or to her?  Now or when she was a kid? According to her own words she's doing well and having a pretty great life. She's a professor. Published. Respected by almost everyone but you and some redneck ranchers who like feel a lot better about themselves by hurting animals. She makes great money. Has altered the industry so that now 50% of cattle are slaughtered using her more humane methods and they are profiting from it. She has friends all over the world is changing how autistics are treated by the medical profession. God how miserable that must feel.
And yes much of her mothers suffering and frustration was with the official line that her daughter belonged in an institution for "freakshows" because there was nothing that could be done for her and almost no one would back her. And she had to watch while her daughter was taunted by lessors of your ilk. You know nothing about her or her family it seems. Your Hollywood is in your own head.
Who the fuck have you been talking to besides the voices in your head. I was never talking about the millions of autistic, I was speaking only of one person, Temple Grandin the person you choose to hate on. You've been going on like a madman about something I never brought up. 
Oh yeah, you built a house. That makes you a fucking great human being who is so much more than a "freakshow" like Temple who took on a whole tribe of ignorant cowards with your attitude and wiped the fucking floor with them.
She's the only one I've been talking about. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/21/13 04:15 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17990424 - 03/21/13 04:21 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Temple Grandin is not a happy person
According to you or to her? Now or when she was a kid? According to her own words she's doing well and having a pretty great life. She's a professor. Published. Respected by almost everyone but you and some redneck ranchers who like feel a lot better about themselves by hurting animals. She makes great money. Has altered the industry so that now 50% of cattle are slaughtered using her more human methods and they are profiting from it. She has friends all over the world is changing how autistics are treated by the medical profession. God how miserable that must feel.
And yes much of her mothers suffering and frustration was with the official line that her daughter belonged in an institution for "freakshows" because there was nothing that could be done for her and almost no one would back her. And she had to watch while her daughter was taunted by lessors of your ilk. You know nothing about her or her family it seems. Your Hollywood is in your own head.
Who the fuck have you been talking to besides the voices in your head. I was never talking about the millions of autistic, I was speaking only of one person, Temple Grandin the person you choose to hate on. You've been going on like a madman about something I never brought up.
Oh yeah, you built a house. That makes you a fucking great human being who is so much more than a "freakshow" like Temple who took on a whole tribe of ignorant cowards with your attitude and wiped the fucking floor with them.
She's the only one I've been talking about.
What nonsense. I am not surprised you feel a kinship. Temple Grandin is a savant. If you think that what she has done is educate people about autism (and not just about Temple Grandin) then how did you end up so ignorant about autism?
Opt outs will never know a parent's suffering. The fucking least of it is the names other kids call the autistic kids but shallow is as deep as you go with parenthood.
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod] 2
#17990501 - 03/21/13 04:32 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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I feel a kinship with non haters in general. Plus the fact she's a human being and part of my country. She's in my tribe then and a good one and I like her a lot more than I like people who just hate for the sake of making themselves feel special.
And she is autistic. Prove she isn't and then we can talk about you not talking out your ass.
Now let's hear your personal experience with autism. I'll just bet I know what you'd do. Send em to the freakshow farm and forget about em.
And get over your tired bit about all the autistic. I was talking only about Temple.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/21/13 04:41 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17990634 - 03/21/13 05:07 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I feel a kinship with non haters in general. Plus the fact she's a human being and part of my country. She's in my tribe then and a good one and I like her a lot more than I like people who just hate for the sake of making themselves feel special.
I don't hate Temple Grandin. It's you I have an issue with.Quote:
And she is autistic. Prove she isn't and then we can talk about you not talking out your ass.
No shit. Are you well? I never said she wasn't.Quote:
Now let's hear your personal experience with autism. I'll just bet I know what you'd do. Send em to the freakshow farm and forget about em.
I can't say. Quote:
And get over your tired bit about all the autistic. I was talking only about Temple.
Quote:
Icelander said:
I can't discount it especially since autism doesn't always present itself detrimentally.
This is what I'm referring to with Temple although some here are too fucking ignorant and filled with bile to get that. I do not see autism per se as an advantage.
I have a friend with Aspergers who is maybe the smartest most successful and happiest person I know. He used to post here as Huehuecoyotl
Apparently you are a liar
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17990778 - 03/21/13 05:32 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Who the fuck cares if you have an issue with me. You're absolutely unimportant to me in every way. But if you want bring it to me in PM.
Do you call all people you don't hate "freakshows". You're FOS.
And Hue is not autistic. I was speaking of aspergers. Thats far from full on autism. Guess you can't read or comprehend.
You can't say? Then you got nothing and no special skill to speak on the subject. If you got nothing that's what you got. Big shocking surprise. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/21/13 05:50 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17990993 - 03/21/13 06:05 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Who the fuck cares if you have an issue with me. You're absolutely unimportant to me in every way. But if you want bring it to me in PM.
Do you call all people you don't hate "freakshows". You're FOS.
I don't see it as being particularly pejorative. Most of them know they are. All of the ones I know do.Quote:
And Hue is not autistic. I was speaking of aspergers. Thats far from full on autism. Guess you can't read or comprehend.
Assburgers is now autism, or dincha know. I am quite familiar with that as well anyway.Quote:
You can't say? Then you got nothing and no special skill to speak on the subject. If you got nothing that's what you got. Big shocking surprise.
I don't have to provide credentials to opt outs. I know more than a dozen kids from half a dozen families with this shit and the kids are now around being grown and out. Except most of them aren't. One of them is turning 18 and can't go to his school anymore but needs a place for activity with peers. Some others are doing OK. One is doing real well. One is doing really poorly. One is opting out after being given a tremendous education of his choosing. Another is trying but fucked. These are some of the kids I know personally and they are all diagnosed. Only one is close to hockey helmet but all of them know themselves and are struggling and their families are struggling.
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Icelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17991111 - 03/21/13 06:29 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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I don't have to provide credentials
You need to start posting in the mysticism forum then, no need for evidence there. Just a lousy opinion.
You saying you know people is not evidence of anything and you're back to the mysticism forum.
And again I was talking about one person who I admire. She keep going against the odds and made it big. This is supposedly what you rail against others for not doing. I stated in two separate responses that I did not consider autism any advantage in any way. So you've been talking to yourself about some phantom in your head. Once again back to the Mysticism forum.
Had Temple been born without arm and legs I'd still see no reason not to admire her, or to call her names and think she's a freak. Humans have to overcome all kinds of things in life. Lots of things and when they do and also succeed in helping others and caring about others I choose to admire it. To me the psychopathic personality type that never does is the freak show.
And if Hue is really autistic then more reason to admire him cause he's a huge fucking success and one of the smartest and most successful humans I know. And not everyone agrees they are the same.
How is Asperger different from autism?
A child with Asperger experiences no clinically significant delay in cognitive development and does not experience a gross delay in developing language skills.
Other differences are:
Children with autism tend to think concretely and have much difficulty with symbolic thinking and pretend play, whereas Asperger children can be quite imaginative although themes may be repetitive.
Asperger children tend to have motor coordination difficulties not seen in autism.
http://nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Asperger_Syndrome.htm
Although Asperger's syndrome is similar in some ways to autism -- another, more severe type of PDD -- there are some important differences. Children with Asperger's syndrome typically function better than do those with autism. In addition, children with Asperger's syndrome generally have normal intelligence and near-normal language development, although they may develop problems communicating as they get older.
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/mental-health-aspergers-syndrome
What distinguishes Asperger's Disorder from autism are the less severe symptoms and the absence of language delays. Children with Asperger's Disorder may be only mildly affected and frequently have good language and cognitive skills. To the untrained observer, a child with Asperger's Disorder may just seem like a normal child behaving differently.
Children with autism are frequently seen as aloof and uninterested in others. This is not the case with Asperger's Disorder. Individuals with Asperger's Disorder usually want to fit in and have interaction with others; they simply don't know how to do it. They may be socially awkward, not understanding of conventional social rules, or show a lack of empathy. They may have limited eye contact, seem to be unengaged in a conversation, and not understand the use of gestures.
Interests in a particular subject may border on the obsessive. Children with Asperger's Disorder frequently like to collect categories of things, such as rocks or bottle caps. They may be proficient in knowing categories of information, such as baseball statistics or Latin names of flowers. While they may have good rote memory skills, they have difficulty with abstract concepts.
One of the major differences between Asperger's Disorder and autism is that, by definition, there is no speech delay in Asperger's. In fact, children with Asperger's Disorder frequently have good language skills; they simply use language in different ways. Speech patterns may be unusual, lack inflection or have a rhythmic nature, or it may be formal, but too loud or high pitched. Children with Asperger's Disorder may not understand the subtleties of language, such as irony and humor, or they may not understand the give-and-take nature of a conversation.
Another distinction between Asperger's Disorder and autism concerns cognitive ability. While some individuals with autism have intellectual disabilities, by definition a person with Asperger's Disorder cannot possess a "clinically significant" cognitive delay and most possess average to above average intelligence.
http://www.autism-society.org/about-autism/aspergers-syndrome/
I don't see it as being particularly pejorative.
That's because you are used to and revel in saying hateful things imo. I'll bet she wouldn't agree with you. Nor would most parents of the autistic.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/21/13 07:27 PM)
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
In recent years the rates of autism seem to have been climbing. Part of me wonders if this is only so because more and more people have been diagnosed with aspergers when in fact they're just children who have suffered through improper parenting in their lives, but part of me wonders if there's something more.
I don't know the statistics, but one in every so many autistics is born a savant; meaning they are able to grasp a concept, be it math, art, music, memory, etc.. With absolute ease and total finesse. It's as if they skip a step in the learning process and find a shorter and exponentially more efficient route to solve the problems they excel at.
This brings up the question; could autism perhaps be the first step on the way to the next stage of our species' evolution? There may be only a small percentage of savants on the Autistic spectrum as of now, but we've only started to see a rise in diagnoses in the recent past. Is it not possible that over time, through trial, error and natural selection, that low functioning autism rates will eventually drop while the number of savants being born will begin to dramatically rise?
As an afterthought, do you think it's possible that the more evolutionarily advanced a species becomes, the more prone they may be to making large leaps in evolution in smaller and smaller amounts of time?
I was in medical research for 17 years and savants remind me of PhD chemists who are brilliant but extremely hyper focused and specialized in one specific area of science. I think this tendency toward extreme specialization is not always a good thing. I think that in order for people to understand each other we need to keep the big picture in mind.
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Memories
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17992376 - 03/21/13 10:38 PM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Memories said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
ORLY? Every single kid I know who has been diagnosed has been a huge burden and I am in double digit territory here with experience over the entire spectrum. I would posit that you know fuck all about what his internal family dynamics and suffering are.
I've known him since elementary school and knew his family quite well. He was one of the most respectful kids I've met whether it be with his family or his teachers. The biggest problem he had was making friends in school because people thought he was weird.
He is a skilled musician in multiple genres from Metal to EDM and is to the point where he is touring within the year. He also attends one of the best engineering schools in the country at which he excels.
It's laughable that you claim I don't know shit about his family dynamics when I've experienced them for years, and you have never met him.
And just what makes you think he is autistic? Respectfulness is not one feature I have ever heard. If you are autistic you typically do not have the mechanism to be respectful because that kind of thing is out of their conceptual ability. By definition, almost.
He was diagnosed by multiple doctors. While he is definitely polite, he is prone to silly outbursts, a large part of the reason why everyone in school thought he was weird. He also has problems with volume control and understanding when he is talking for too long so as to not bore/annoy others. One example of this type of behavior I can think of is the fact that he makes an absurd amount of facebook posts.
He tends to speak his mind if he feels that he is right, even when such an action might be detrimental. His objections are always very mild mannered though.
Luckily for him, his generally jovial attitude combined with extremely high intelligence makes him more than capable of succeeding and being a positive influence on those around him.
Edited by Memories (03/21/13 10:39 PM)
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kali ma
Stranger
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Memories]
#17993126 - 03/22/13 02:35 AM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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i have aspergers and im not a burden on anyone, i run my own business and am paying off a mortage. Another popular theory is we have more neanderthal traits that typical people
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liquidlounge
Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: kali ma]
#17993188 - 03/22/13 02:53 AM (11 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
kali ma said:
Another popular theory is we have more neanderthal traits that typical people
Is that something to be proud of?
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As far as I assume to know...
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
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Is it not? 
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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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liquidlounge
Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Why?
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As far as I assume to know...
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
Registered: 02/10/11
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Why what?
Honestly, we've never kicked it along side neanderthals so I'm not quite sure how someone can even draw such a conclusion. 
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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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kali ma
Stranger
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
Why what?
Honestly, we've never kicked it along side neanderthals so I'm not quite sure how someone can even draw such a conclusion.
yes we did live along side neanderthals....we all have 1 -4 % neanderthal dna in us with africans being the exception.... we spent in excess of 100,000 years living on the same planet and the location and dating of fossils supports all of this. The lack of aspergers in african americans supports this theory however some would probably think that the african american community just dont take their children to a specialist to seek a diagnosis. I personally dont know what to believe.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
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Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: kali ma]
#17995735 - 03/22/13 04:33 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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I understand that.
But what I meant when I said "we've never kicked it along side neanderthals" is us ourselves or those in more modern times with the anthropological or ethnological and behavioral science backgrounds to thoroughly and accurately document neanderthal culture and behavior enough to even begin to make a link between neanderthals and aspergers.
As far as I have studied, the assumptions we make about neanderthal behavior and culture is solely based on the grave and campsites we've found and varying bone injuries we find on their skeletons, nothing substantial enough to make assumptions about things like aspergers.
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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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viktor
psychotechnician
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand 
Last seen: 2 years, 17 days
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
I was in medical research for 17 years and savants remind me of PhD chemists who are brilliant but extremely hyper focused and specialized in one specific area of science. I think this tendency toward extreme specialization is not always a good thing. I think that in order for people to understand each other we need to keep the big picture in mind.
I got this impression as well (I was a psychologist). I wonder if the increasing size of our population might mean that we can support more super-specialised people and therefore end up with more autists. I don't even know if this is possible, but I did notice that the (limited number of) autists I met were all city kids.
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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: viktor]
#17995967 - 03/22/13 05:31 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
I wonder if the increasing size of our population might mean that we can support more super-specialised people and therefore end up with more autists.
I take it to mean that, since our population is increasing, there are more opportunities for genetic variation. Like the difference between 10 and 100 in a drawing game. If there are 10 draws, there are only 10 chances for a particular number to be drawn. However, if we up to the draw amount to 100, then we have 10 times a greater chance than we previously did for a particular number to be drawn.
I don't think it has anything to do with filling a perceived gap. That's just how statistics works.
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full blown human
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17995985 - 03/22/13 05:35 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't hate Temple Grandin.
I just question her fashion sense.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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You probably had a problem with Annie Oakley and Calamity Jane too. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17996051 - 03/22/13 05:47 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Lesbians with rifles scare me.
I sorta liked Dale Evans before she went into her 'big hair' period.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I haven't thought of her in 30 years or more. Hey, thanks for the mammeries.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Memories]
#17998556 - 03/23/13 09:41 AM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Memories said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
ORLY? Every single kid I know who has been diagnosed has been a huge burden and I am in double digit territory here with experience over the entire spectrum. I would posit that you know fuck all about what his internal family dynamics and suffering are.
I've known him since elementary school and knew his family quite well. He was one of the most respectful kids I've met whether it be with his family or his teachers. The biggest problem he had was making friends in school because people thought he was weird.
He is a skilled musician in multiple genres from Metal to EDM and is to the point where he is touring within the year. He also attends one of the best engineering schools in the country at which he excels.
It's laughable that you claim I don't know shit about his family dynamics when I've experienced them for years, and you have never met him.
And just what makes you think he is autistic? Respectfulness is not one feature I have ever heard. If you are autistic you typically do not have the mechanism to be respectful because that kind of thing is out of their conceptual ability. By definition, almost.
He was diagnosed by multiple doctors. While he is definitely polite, he is prone to silly outbursts, a large part of the reason why everyone in school thought he was weird. He also has problems with volume control and understanding when he is talking for too long so as to not bore/annoy others. One example of this type of behavior I can think of is the fact that he makes an absurd amount of facebook posts.
He tends to speak his mind if he feels that he is right, even when such an action might be detrimental. His objections are always very mild mannered though.
Luckily for him, his generally jovial attitude combined with extremely high intelligence makes him more than capable of succeeding and being a positive influence on those around him.
I am not going to deny that there are people who can succeed in spite of the affliction. But I cannot ignore that every single family I know dealing with any form of autism or Asperger's (which is now autism), and I know a lot of them unlike the opt out, is heartbroken. I know high functioning Asperger's very well. They can support themselves but they are social misfits, know it and are deeply unhappy about it. The repeated efforts to point to exceptions and try to deny that the condition is an affliction and that all is hunky dory because they can conceptualize cowhugging machines is ludicrous. Even for the most functioning life is a struggle.
Autism is a tragedy
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17998676 - 03/23/13 10:21 AM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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I do know at least two with aspergers and they are happy and healthy. And from the sound of the hater they are happier and healthier emotionally.
Autism can be a tragedy, likely mostly but not always. I never said different as I must continually point out to the ignorant and uninformed.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17998919 - 03/23/13 11:26 AM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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You seem to be implying that this movie is not a true story because it's made in Hollywood. Even though one of the special features on this DVD is Temple herself going through the movie pretty much step by step and commenting on it . She pointed out several places were it wasn't quite accurate but showed that mostly it was spot on true to her story.
And if she is telling the truth then her life would have been a full on tragedy had not her mother resisted the experts who said her daughter would be forever non functioning and that she be locked away in an institution. That certainly would have been the outcome had she listened to them. A real lifelong tragedy.
Instead her mother struggled to bring her into the world. Without special training she worked day after day with Temple and ultimately turned a lifelong tragedy into something of a success story that warrants her great respect in the world today and her contributions to the world and to society.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander] 1
#17998983 - 03/23/13 11:42 AM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I do know at least two with aspergers and they are happy and healthy. And from the sound of the hater they are happier and healthier emotionally.
Autism can be a tragedy, likely mostly but not always. I never said different as I must continually point out to the ignorant and uninformed.
Autism is a tragedy. Period. Just because some blind people can overcome their affliction doesn't mean blindness is not tragic. Note, by the way, the title of this thread and the starting point of discussion, which was a discussion that autism was somehow advantageous evolutionarily. It isn't.Quote:
Quote:
Icelander said:
You seem to be implying that this movie is not a true story because it's made in Hollywood. Even though one of the special features on this DVD is Temple herself going through the movie pretty much step by step and commenting on it . She pointed out several places were it wasn't quite accurate but showed that mostly it was spot on true to her story.
And if she is telling the truth then her life would have been a full on tragedy had not her mother resisted the experts who said her daughter would be forever non functioning and that she be locked away in an institution. That certainly would have been the outcome had she listened to them. A real lifelong tragedy.
Instead her mother struggled to bring her into the world. Without special training she worked day after day with Temple and ultimately turned a lifelong tragedy into something of a success story that warrants her great respect in the world today and her contributions to the world and to society.
Right. You don't think it is a tragedy that her mother had to basically sacrifice all of her own ambitions to care for Temple? My beef with Hollywood is that they only present the Helen Keller miracles and totally ignore the mundane horror and anguish that befalls the vast majority of people who have autism or who have kids with it. That goes for the producer. Her son is not going to be a success story and she was not the caregiver who sacrificed a career dealing with him.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999262 - 03/23/13 12:52 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Never said it was an advantage.
Everything that makes life hard (you said life was hard) then is tragic. People have to overcome all sorts of things and often that struggle to overcome gives their life meaning and defines them. Someone growing up in abject poverty but with hard work and sacrifice makes it big may not see their initial poverty (or any handicap) as tragic as the struggle to over come it made them much stronger in the end. It happens.
And you'd have to ask her mother if the fact that she made a sacrifice for her child against the odds and succeeded makes her life tragic. I'm guessing she'd say no. It was worth it. Bad things happen and you either cave or grow. It doesn't have to be tragic imo.
We all have choices in life to make and they define us. Life will always throw up roadblocks to fulfillment. So we could say all life is tragic then? Maybe so but that makes your objections moot imo.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17999352 - 03/23/13 01:14 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Ridiculous, as usual.
Do you think that the mother would have chosen this horror to validate her life? I know the producer of the movie didn't and in fact personally almost completely abdicated from it.
But you're an opt out. These things are abstractions to you.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999429 - 03/23/13 01:38 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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You know, you know, you know nothing. You're a mysticism poster. You claim you know a "lot of people" but that's likely pure bullshit. I'm calling your bluff. Produce some of this evidence you have from all the autistic people you know. Several would be nice since you know so many.
Nobody gets to choose everything that happens. Don't be so childish. It's what we do with it that counts towards what we are to become.
The only thing I opt out on is political whining. I pay taxes, I hire people to work for me, I spend money to stimulate the economy just like you do. Get over your fucking self. You haven't produced anything to back your claims here except your abundant hot air.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/23/13 01:45 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17999466 - 03/23/13 01:48 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You know, you know, you know nothing. You're a mysticism poster. You claim you know a "lot of people" but that's likely pure bullshit. I'm calling your bluff. Produce some of this evidence you have from all the autistic people you know. Several would be nice since you know so many.
Really? I already named the producer of the movie. Emily Gerson Saines. Her son's name is Dashell. He is just now starting in his permanent assisted living placementQuote:
Nobody gets to choose everything that happens. Don't be so childish.
Of course not. But that wasn't the point. I asked a specific question. Was it not tragic that that woman had to give up her hopes and dreams to tend to her freakshow child? Quote:
The only thing I opt out on is political whining. I pay taxes, I hire people to work for me, I spend money to stimulate the economy just like you do. Get over your fucking self. You haven't produced anything to back your claims here except your abundant hot air.
You opt out on political thinking? Really? You seem to make a fair amount of posts about it.
You have opted out of a lot. You don't have any children so I find it particular galling when you opine about what it is like to have them. You have expressed on more than one occasion that you feel liberated by not caring much about anything.
I have no intention of providing enough information to identify myself just to satisfy the whims of an opt out.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999519 - 03/23/13 02:02 PM (11 years, 27 days ago) |
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Yes so you're bullshiting us. No one is surprised. Wow! you came up with the name of the director of the movie and know her sons name. You have no evidence at all. What real experience do you have? Can't say? That's an excellent debate technique. You have kids and that makes you the expert on autism?
I post occasionally in the political forum. You have made your life over there often whining like your life is a tragedy due to the fact that you have to pay some taxes.
Again you'll have to ask the woman if she considers her life a tragedy. You certainly can't answer that question for her.
Your position in this discussion is based on calling me an opt out. You got nothing else. NADA. What a shocker. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/23/13 02:15 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17999620 - 03/23/13 02:42 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Yes so you're bullshiting us. No one is surprised. Wow! you came up with the name of the director of the movie and know her sons name. You have no evidence at all. What real experience do you have? Can't say? That's an excellent debate technique. You have kids and that makes you the expert on autism?
She was not the director, she was the producer. They are personal friends of mine. I can say lots of things about other kids but have no desire to reveal that much personal information. Tough shit if you don't like it, opt out.Quote:
I post occasionally in the political forum. You have made your life over there often whining like your life is a tragedy due to the fact that you have to pay some taxes.
Right. Opining about the hazards of socialism is whining. But that is irrelevant to the fact that you misrepresented your interest in matters political. Quote:
Again you'll have to ask the woman if she considers her life a tragedy. You certainly can't answer that question for her.
I asked you what you thought. I would further ask if you think that the people of autistic freakshows are glad that they found meaning in their life by being forced to provide far more for their children than they ever expected to have to. Let me simplify this so even an opt out can understand. Do you think any parent of an autistic child is glad that their child is autistic?Quote:
Your position in this discussion is based on calling me an opt out. You got nothing else. NADA. What a shocker.
I have presented plenty of real life truth. You present Hollywood and books about exceptions and expect us to believe that they are the norm. Ignorant opt out is ignorant. You have a lot of nerve even opening your piehole about anything related to parenting and every time you do I will be sure to point out your perspective is completely non-participant.
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'
Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 11,589
Loc: Canada
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999667 - 03/23/13 02:55 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Do you think any parent of an autistic child is glad that their child is autistic?
I think most of them love their children for who they are and if asked, would not change them. My cousin's young child is autistic and she loves him to death.
Quote:
You present Hollywood and books about exceptions and expect us to believe that they are the norm.
Nobody has said the success stories are the norm. I agreed with you fully that most cases are sad, but you can't ignore the cases that aren't and the autistic people who go above and beyond what was ever expected of them or any other person on this planet. I don't see why you can't accept the possibility of autism being a case of nature getting it wrong until it finally gets it right. I accept the possibility that it isn't.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999703 - 03/23/13 03:05 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Prove they are personal friends of yours. You won't because you can't. Not that that helps in any way your claims to expertise.
You use opt out like a little bully calling names. What a clown act. The last refuge of the impotent.
And I told you what I thought. I think she would not call her experience a tragedy. So what? Opinions are worth squat.
No I don't think anyone who has a difficult challenge is glad for it. Doesn't mean every who has problems no matter what calls that a tragedy.
You have presented no real life anything. You refuse to show any evidence of your name dropping. It's all a smoke screen.
How about this. Not saying I can but what if I can get Hue to post and tell you if his life is a tragedy or not or if he considers his childhood a tragedy that has ruined his life and that of his parents. Would that be enough to get you to stfu about things you know nothing about? He's the real deal. I'm willing to provide the evidence if I can.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Do you think any parent of an autistic child is glad that their child is autistic?
I think most of them love their children for who they are and if asked, would not change them. My cousin's young child is autistic and she loves him to death.
That wasn't the question but I can assure you that every single parent of an autistic child that I know is extremely unhappy that their child is so. The people I know who are actually on the spectrum, if they are self aware enough, aren't happy about it either. I bet your cousin wishes her kid wasn't autistic. Ask her.Quote:
Quote:
You present Hollywood and books about exceptions and expect us to believe that they are the norm.
Nobody has said the success stories are the norm. I agreed with you fully that most cases are sad, but you can't ignore the cases that aren't and the autistic people who go above and beyond what was ever expected of them or any other person on this planet. I don't see why you can't accept the possibility of autism being a case of nature getting it wrong until it finally gets it right. I accept the possibility that it isn't.
Even the cases that you say aren't sad are sad. I also understand evolution. There is nothing evolutionarily advantageous and most autistic people do not reproduce. I only know of one example and the kid is not autistic. He's a little weird because his parents are but he does not have the affliction.
There is nothing positive or romantic about autism. It is a fucking nightmare.
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999724 - 03/23/13 03:12 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Aspberger's syndrome can be socially frustrating but I certainly don't think it is a tragedy. I could think of many worse conditions, such as the elephant man that you mentioned earlier, which are much more tragic.
To the OP, I think autism is caused by a combination of genetics and environment. I think the mercury filled vaccines, food additives such as MSG and aspartame, and all the toxic chemicals we are exposed to are causing autism to express itself more in these modern times. Do you think that is a positive thing because there's a few savants in the mix?
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'
Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 11,589
Loc: Canada
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999725 - 03/23/13 03:12 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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I'm sure that she never wanted an autistic child before she had one, but she's happy with the son she ended up with.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17999731 - 03/23/13 03:14 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Prove they are personal friends of yours. You won't because you can't. Not that that helps in any way your claims to expertise.
How would you like me to prove that? What expertise am I claiming? You are a jokeQuote:
You use opt out like a little bully calling names. What a clown act. The last refuge of the impotent.
Why do you take offense at me calling you an opt out when you have taken pride in it? Quote:
And I told you what I thought. I think she would not call her experience a tragedy. So what? Opinions are worth squat.
Especially those of an opt out who has never had children. What do you care about, anyway?Quote:
No I don't think anyone who has a difficult challenge is glad for it. Doesn't mean every who has problems no matter what calls that a tragedy.
Some challenges are less than others. Opt outs will never know.Quote:
You have presented no real life anything. You refuse to show any evidence of your name dropping. It's all a smoke screen.
How would you like me to prove this?Quote:
How about this. Not saying I can but what if I can get Hue to post and tell you if his life is a tragedy or not or if he considers his childhood a tragedy that has ruined his life and that of his parents. Would that be enough to get you to stfu about things you know nothing about? He's the real deal. I'm willing to provide the evidence if I can.
No. There are millions of kids with autism in this country. Hue is not relevant to Dashell or any other spectrum freak
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'
Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 11,589
Loc: Canada
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No.. I never said it was generally a positive affliction.. But for the savants it can be very advantageous and have massive positives. Regular old low functioning autistic people? No, there is really not much good that can come of being born the way they are.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
Aspberger's syndrome can be socially frustrating but I certainly don't think it is a tragedy. I could think of many worse conditions, such as the elephant man that you mentioned earlier, which are much more tragic.
Asperger's isn't that bad but I know people with it and it is still extremely difficult. We live in a social world and it is a huge handicap for them not to be able to read other people's affect.Quote:
To the OP, I think autism is caused by a combination of genetics and environment. I think the mercury filled vaccines, food additives such as MSG and aspartame, and all the toxic chemicals we are exposed to are causing autism to express itself more in these modern times. Do you think that is a positive thing because there's a few savants in the mix?
The environmental things you mention had nothing to do with it. This has been well established.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
I'm sure that she never wanted an autistic child before she had one, but she's happy with the son she ended up with.
He's her son. She will love him (not all do, by the way. Some run away). But I am quite sure that she would be a lot happier if he wasn't.
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Midnight_Toker
Gone Fishin'
Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 11,589
Loc: Canada
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999755 - 03/23/13 03:19 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Her life would be different but that doesn't mean she would be happier.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999756 - 03/23/13 03:20 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Bring them in to this to validate your claims. If they are your personal friends it should be very easy indeed. Or at least ask.
You claimed all these cases are tragedies. Hue is one of them. I'm not surprised at all you don't want to hear from the real deal.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17999796 - 03/23/13 03:29 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Bring them in to this to validate your claims. If they are your personal friends it should be very easy indeed. Or at least ask.
How would that prove anything? They are still anonymous. You are a walking talking  Quote:
You claimed all these cases are tragedies. Hue is one of them. I'm not surprised at all you don't want to hear from the real deal.
So let's hear from him. And then let's hear from his mother and father and siblings.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999802 - 03/23/13 03:31 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Maybe they'll convince me they are who they say they are. I'm willing to hear from them. I'll likely believe them.
Hue will have to decide that as to his parents. I've sent him an email.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
Her life would be different but that doesn't mean she would be happier.
Every person decides for themselves what gives their lives meaning and if any challenge is worth it for them. If she's happy then that's a lot.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
#17999827 - 03/23/13 03:39 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Post deleted by zappaisgodReason for deletion: reposted immediately after
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999833 - 03/23/13 03:40 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Maybe they'll convince me they are who they say they are. I'm willing to hear from them. I'll likely believe them.
You want me to sign up people to the Shroomery that you couldn't verify anyway? You are insignificant far more than most, opt out.Quote:
Hue will have to decide that as to his parents. I've sent him an email.
How will I know it is him and not you? Find a rope. See how high you can piss up it, opt out.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999838 - 03/23/13 03:41 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Midnight_Toker said:
No.. I never said it was generally a positive affliction.. But for the savants it can be very advantageous and have massive positives. Regular old low functioning autistic people? No, there is really not much good that can come of being born the way they are.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Maybe they'll convince me they are who they say they are. I'm willing to hear from them. I'll likely believe them.
You are insignificant far more than most, opt out.Quote:
Hue will have to decide that as to his parents. I've sent him an email.
How will I know it is him and not you? Find a rope. See how high you can piss up it, opt out.
I think you can find out from a mod if I have a puppet account. Nice try though.
And you are likely lying and have no interest in the truth.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#17999848 - 03/23/13 03:44 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Most likely lying about what? That I know Dashell Saines?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#17999857 - 03/23/13 03:47 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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That you know a lot of people that have children with autism.
And Hue has an active account here so it will be easy for a mod to know if it's not him posting. We will see if he responds.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#18000265 - 03/23/13 05:35 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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To the OP, I think autism is caused by a combination of genetics and environment. I think the mercury filled vaccines, food additives such as MSG and aspartame, and all the toxic chemicals we are exposed to are causing autism to express itself more in these modern times. Do you think that is a positive thing because there's a few savants in the mix?
The environmental things you mention had nothing to do with it. This has been well established.
Chemical toxins have a lot to do with it. If mercury wasn't a known toxin, then why was it removed from most vaccines, except the flu vaccines? I worked for a pharmaceutical company. I actually worked on a project to remove thimerosal (51% mercury) from the cancer diagnostic products and replace it with another preservative because it is a KNOWN TOXIN.
What is well established is thousands of incidences of normal, healthy children regressing and becoming autistic after being vaccinated.
Many gene mutations are now being discovered to cause autism when combined with other gene mutations and other environmental factors. For example there's a gene called MTHFR that helps the body to rid itself of heavy metals and other contaminants. A mutation on this gene hampers the ability to break down mercury and remove it from the body. Mutations on this gene can cause a lot of other diseases besides autism so you may want to check it out. See mthfr.net
It is just plain ignorant to assume that environmental factors have no affect on our health. Smoke a cigarette and think on that.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
To the OP, I think autism is caused by a combination of genetics and environment. I think the mercury filled vaccines, food additives such as MSG and aspartame, and all the toxic chemicals we are exposed to are causing autism to express itself more in these modern times. Do you think that is a positive thing because there's a few savants in the mix?
The environmental things you mention had nothing to do with it. This has been well established.Quote:
Chemical toxins have a lot to do with it. If mercury wasn't a known toxin, then why was it removed from most vaccines, except the flu vaccines? I worked for a pharmaceutical company. I actually worked on a project to remove thimerosal (51% mercury) from the cancer diagnostic products and replace it with another preservative because it is a KNOWN TOXIN.
Mercury is a known toxin. Thimerosol is not. It was removed in the US because of nattering nitwits and was of no relevance since in the US vaccines do not need to be preserved. In Africa they do.Quote:
What is well established is thousands of incidences of normal, healthy children regressing and becoming autistic after being vaccinated.
How does this establish causality when most autism wouldn't manifest until well after kids were vaccinated anyway?Quote:
Many gene mutations are now being discovered to cause autism when combined with other gene mutations and other environmental factors. For example there's a gene called MTHFR that helps the body to rid itself of heavy metals and other contaminants. A mutation on this gene hampers the ability to break down mercury and remove it from the body. Mutations on this gene can cause a lot of other diseases besides autism so you may want to check it out. See mthfr.net
It is just plain ignorant to assume that environmental factors have no affect on our health. Smoke a cigarette and think on that.
I smoke about 30 cigarettes a day. I have not developed autism.
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#18000359 - 03/23/13 06:01 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Mercury is a known toxin. Thimerosol is not. Quote:
Thimerosal is a known toxin. Do you not understand that it contains mercury?
IUPAC name:
Ethyl(2-mercaptobenzoato-(2-)-O,S)mercurate(1-) sodium
Other names:
Mercury((o-carboxyphenyl)thio)ethyl sodium salt
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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I know it contains mercury. I also know it contains mercury in a non absorbable form and that it is less than you breathe from the air and that it hasn't been used in the US for quite some time with exactly zero change in autism diagnoses.
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
#18000683 - 03/23/13 07:20 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
I know it contains mercury. I also know it contains mercury in a non absorbable form and that it is less than you breathe from the air and that it hasn't been used in the US for quite some time with exactly zero change in autism diagnoses.
Thimerosal breaks down to ethylmercury in the body. While ethylmercury is eliminated faster than methylmercury, not every infant is equally capable of eliminating ethylmercury from the bloodstream. Some people are born with gene mutations that prevent the timely elimination of mercury, as well as other heavy metals and toxins. Also, infants do not have a fully developed blood brain barrier. I and my coworkers had to wear all our personal protective gear when handling thimerosal because it is not considered safe for adults to handle either. Or are you claiming to know more than the chemists?
Of course the rates of autism have not gone down because mercury in vaccines is just one of the many environmental toxins that can cause it, when combined with genetics.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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To my understanding the reason autism rates have increased is that the diagnosis is handed out more freely now. It also must be noted that the medical community is debating removing the aspergers diagnosis from the autism spectrum of disorders.
We all have the burden of accepting the responsibility for who we are, but unfortunately this quality is and has been for sometime rare in our mainstream society. Being a victim is increasingly more popular. Whatever our condition accepting it with it's gifts and curses is the most efficient way to proceed. This is the divide between disability and gift. I see it as the duty of all humans to meet the challenges they have been faced with to achieve as much of their potential as possible.
This conversation seems to be about disability as defined by society, but this is merely about varied states of being.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Nice to see you on the boards once again. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#18001193 - 03/23/13 09:29 PM (11 years, 26 days ago) |
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His spidey senses were tingling.
Welcome back, Huester!
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (03/24/13 06:00 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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not everyone like Temple Grandin gets diagnosed and "protected" or "fostered"
our system is too brutal
but I wish there were more Temple Grandin's
that they would breed or at least leave some clonable material.
A higher percentage in our population might help.
children of Autistic parents are rare but do not generally have the condition diagnosed (unsubstantiatd guess on my part).
so it might not be inheritable, while general IQ might be heritable.
most people seem to lack the gift
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 _  🧠 _ 
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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No matter what the autistic/aspergers spectrum of "disorders" is necessary to society. Without us the neurotypicals would never be able make it. Someone has to design and program all of the technology you guys are so hooked on...lol.
Seriously though, as a child I experienced some very strange effects. I had involuntary tics, grunts, and bodily movements. Many thought me a basket case. I was also obsessive compulsive to an large degree. I had teachers tell my parents I was "retarded" and that I needed "special" classes. I read on a college level at 4th grade yet I found myself in special reading classes...I think my teachers just didn't know how to respond. This all led to being socially outcast and angry/borderline violent. As I grew older I saw that my mind was rolling with an energy that I saw in few others. Now that I can focus this it is a blessing and a gift I am continuously thankful for. I can grasp complex concepts almost instinctively and my ability to integrate these ideas is just as good. I look around me and I don't see this operating in most people.
We all have to take responsibility for ourselves or not. Society won't fix you. You must fix yourself. Basket case or not is the individuals decision.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Not really...Icelander emailed me...I am pretty awesome but I have limits.
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
No matter what the autistic/aspergers spectrum of "disorders" is necessary to society. Without us the neurotypicals would never be able make it. Someone has to design and program all of the technology you guys are so hooked on...lol.
Seriously though, as a child I experienced some very strange effects. I had involuntary tics, grunts, and bodily movements. Many thought me a basket case. I was also obsessive compulsive to an large degree. I had teachers tell my parents I was "retarded" and that I needed "special" classes. I read on a college level at 4th grade yet I found myself in special reading classes...I think my teachers just didn't know how to respond. This all led to being socially outcast and angry/borderline violent. As I grew older I saw that my mind was rolling with an energy that I saw in few others. Now that I can focus this it is a blessing and a gift I am continuously thankful for. I can grasp complex concepts almost instinctively and my ability to integrate these ideas is just as good. I look around me and I don't see this operating in most people.
We all have to take responsibility for ourselves or not. Society won't fix you. You must fix yourself. Basket case or not is the individuals decision.
I'm glad to see that you're comfortable with yourself and that you don't consider yourself to be disabled. I've been doing a lot of research in my quest to discover the cure for insomnia and chronic fatigue, and keep running into information about autism. Apparently, many of the modern disorders can be due to the same genetic mutations combined with environmental factors.
Unlike you, I was not comfortable with having severe insomnia, fatigue and depression so I looked for a cause and a treatment. Doctors could not find the cause but through extensive research on my own I have discovered that there are many environmental toxins, especially food additives, that I can not break down and eliminate from my body. I've heard that people with autism, MS, Parkinson's, fibromyalgia and many other neurodegenerative diseases have the same problem with breaking down toxins and eliminating them.
So rather than just accept my condition I am doing something about it. A scientist, much like a philosopher, seeks answers.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Well my issue is not debilitating physically...insomnia needs to be dealt with in order to be healthy. In my case simple acceptance is all that was required.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Not really...Icelander emailed me...I am pretty awesome but I have limits.
I deduced that. 
ZIG was too much for him so he needed backup.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I'm the blond one. Hue is a foot and a half taller and a better shot.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#18005161 - 03/24/13 06:02 PM (11 years, 25 days ago) |
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Strange coincidence: wherever Hue goes hiking, the following day there are reports of Bigfoot sightings.
True story.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I do love a true story.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fingerguns
Stranger
Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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I think it's an evolutionary step forward, only it is attempted by the psychos with the power to try. You just cannot ignore the gifts of mutation...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: fingerguns]
#18005511 - 03/24/13 07:22 PM (11 years, 25 days ago) |
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Not all mutations are a gift in the sense that they bring a better living experience in fact it's almost always the opposite. Not all autist and or aspergers are also savants and exceptional people. Many or most are just going to suffer in this world and wither away. In this way nature can feel very cruel because it does not care about that.
Having said that it is quite interesting that so many of these so afflicted are savants (or maybe it just seems that way) and when they do make it they can make it very big. That does cause one to wonder if there is a possible benefit to the condition over time. In the mean time those that cannot make it will suffer greatly most likely. This seems to be how nature operates and subjectively I don't like or admire that aspect of nature but there it is.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#18005527 - 03/24/13 07:26 PM (11 years, 25 days ago) |
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I think the whole issue is evolutionary for real. Many of these people are far gone, but sometimes the right mix is hit then the society benefits and advances.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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It's true that society rarely makes advances within the normal drone colony but rather from mutation at the fringes. (you must be very proud)
LSD etc. was likely a good mutagen?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fingerguns
Stranger
Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 16
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
#18008754 - 03/25/13 01:29 PM (11 years, 25 days ago) |
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I have been thinking a lot about the competitiveness of nature. We can accept that animals kill each other, it benefits their species if only the stronger survive. It's kind of an unconscious goal. Would the introduction of consciousness really end the competition? It doesn't seem like it does. So wouldn't it only be natural, and possibly an unconscious goal, that drives people to mutate large populations? Yes it brings lots of death and misfortune, but what if it wasn't out of selfishness but love for their species.
Bill gates even says that when his vaccination program is complete, the population will be lower and the people healthier. Hmm
Edited by fingerguns (03/25/13 01:30 PM)
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