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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17998676 - 03/23/13 10:21 AM (11 years, 8 days ago)

I do know at least two with aspergers and they are happy and healthy.  And from the sound of the hater they are happier and healthier emotionally.

Autism can be a tragedy, likely mostly but not always. I never said different as I must continually point out to the ignorant and uninformed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17998919 - 03/23/13 11:26 AM (11 years, 8 days ago)

You seem to be implying that this movie is not a true story because it's made in Hollywood. Even though one of the special features on this DVD is Temple herself going through the movie pretty much step by step and commenting on it . She pointed out several places were it wasn't quite accurate but showed that mostly it was spot on true to her story.

And if she is telling the truth then her life would have been a full on tragedy had not her mother resisted the experts who said her daughter would be forever non functioning and that she be locked away in an institution.  That certainly would have been the outcome had she listened to them.  A real lifelong tragedy.

  Instead her mother struggled to bring her into the world. Without special training she worked day after day with Temple and ultimately turned a lifelong tragedy into something of a success  story that warrants her great respect in the world today and her contributions to the world and to society.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #17998983 - 03/23/13 11:42 AM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I do know at least two with aspergers and they are happy and healthy.  And from the sound of the hater they are happier and healthier emotionally.

Autism can be a tragedy, likely mostly but not always. I never said different as I must continually point out to the ignorant and uninformed.




Autism is a tragedy.  Period.  Just because some blind people can overcome their affliction doesn't mean blindness is not tragic.  Note, by the way, the title of this thread and the starting point of discussion, which was a discussion that autism was somehow advantageous evolutionarily.  It isn't.
Quote:




Quote:

Icelander said:
You seem to be implying that this movie is not a true story because it's made in Hollywood. Even though one of the special features on this DVD is Temple herself going through the movie pretty much step by step and commenting on it . She pointed out several places were it wasn't quite accurate but showed that mostly it was spot on true to her story.

And if she is telling the truth then her life would have been a full on tragedy had not her mother resisted the experts who said her daughter would be forever non functioning and that she be locked away in an institution.  That certainly would have been the outcome had she listened to them.  A real lifelong tragedy.

  Instead her mother struggled to bring her into the world. Without special training she worked day after day with Temple and ultimately turned a lifelong tragedy into something of a success  story that warrants her great respect in the world today and her contributions to the world and to society.




Right.  You don't think it is a tragedy that her mother had to basically sacrifice all of her own ambitions to care for Temple?  My beef with Hollywood is that they only present the Helen Keller miracles and totally ignore the mundane horror and anguish that befalls the vast majority of people who have autism or who have kids with it.  That goes for the producer.  Her son is not going to be a success story and she was not the caregiver who sacrificed a career dealing with him.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999262 - 03/23/13 12:52 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Never said it was an advantage.:shrug:

  Everything that makes life hard (you said life was hard) then is tragic.  People have to overcome all sorts of things and often that struggle to overcome gives their life meaning and defines them.  Someone growing up in abject poverty but with hard work and sacrifice makes it big may not see their initial poverty (or any handicap) as tragic as the struggle to over come it made  them much stronger in the end.  It happens.

And you'd have to ask her mother if the fact that she made a sacrifice for her child against the odds and succeeded makes her life tragic. I'm guessing she'd say no. It was worth it.  Bad things happen and you either cave or grow.  It doesn't have to be tragic imo.

We all have choices in life to make and they define us.  Life will always throw up roadblocks to fulfillment. So we could say all life is tragic then?  Maybe so but that makes your objections moot imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #17999352 - 03/23/13 01:14 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Ridiculous, as usual. 

Do you think that the mother would have chosen this horror to validate her life?  I know the producer of the movie didn't and in fact personally almost completely abdicated from it. 

But you're an opt out.  These things are abstractions to you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999429 - 03/23/13 01:38 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

You know, you know, you know nothing. You're a mysticism poster. You claim you know a "lot of people"  but that's likely pure bullshit.  I'm calling your bluff.  Produce some of this evidence you have from all the autistic people you know.  Several would be nice since you know so many.

Nobody gets to choose everything that happens.  Don't be so childish.  It's what we do with it that counts towards what we are to become.

The only thing I opt out on is political whining.  I pay taxes, I hire people to work for me, I spend money to stimulate the economy just like you do.  Get over your fucking self.  You haven't produced anything to back your claims here except your abundant hot air.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/23/13 01:45 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #17999466 - 03/23/13 01:48 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You know, you know, you know nothing. You're a mysticism poster. You claim you know a "lot of people"  but that's likely pure bullshit.  I'm calling your bluff.  Produce some of this evidence you have from all the autistic people you know.  Several would be nice since you know so many.




Really?  I already named the producer of the movie.  Emily Gerson Saines.  Her son's name is Dashell.  He is just now starting in his permanent assisted living placement
Quote:

 

Nobody gets to choose everything that happens.  Don't be so childish.




Of course not.  But that wasn't the point.  I asked a specific question.  Was it not tragic that that woman had to give up her hopes and dreams to tend to her freakshow child?
Quote:



The only thing I opt out on is political whining.  I pay taxes, I hire people to work for me, I spend money to stimulate the economy just like you do.  Get over your fucking self.  You haven't produced anything to back your claims here except your abundant hot air.




You opt out on political thinking?  Really?  You seem to make a fair amount of posts about it. 

You have opted out of a lot.  You don't have any children so I find it particular galling when you opine about what it is like to have them.  You have expressed on more than one occasion that you feel liberated by not caring much about anything. 

I have no intention of providing enough information to identify myself just to satisfy the whims of an opt out.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999519 - 03/23/13 02:02 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Yes so you're bullshiting us.  No one is surprised.  Wow! you came up with the name of the director of the movie and know her sons name. :lol:  You have no evidence at all.  What real experience do you have? Can't say?  That's an excellent debate technique.  You  have kids and that makes you the expert on autism? :braindamage:

I post occasionally in the political forum. You have made your life over there often whining like your life is a tragedy due to  the fact that you have to pay some taxes. :tongue::lol:

Again you'll have to ask the woman if she considers her life a tragedy. You certainly can't answer that question for her.

Your position in this discussion is based on calling me an opt out. :curbyourenthusiasm: You got nothing else. NADA.  What a shocker. :whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/23/13 02:15 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #17999620 - 03/23/13 02:42 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes so you're bullshiting us.  No one is surprised.  Wow! you came up with the name of the director of the movie and know her sons name. :lol:  You have no evidence at all.  What real experience do you have? Can't say?  That's an excellent debate technique.  You  have kids and that makes you the expert on autism? :braindamage:




She was not the director, she was the producer.  They are personal friends of mine.  I can say lots of things  about other kids but have no desire to reveal that much personal information.  Tough shit if you don't like it, opt out.
Quote:



I post occasionally in the political forum. You have made your life over there often whining like your life is a tragedy due to  the fact that you have to pay some taxes. :tongue::lol:




Right.  Opining about the hazards of socialism is whining.  But that is irrelevant to the fact that you misrepresented your interest in matters political. 
Quote:



Again you'll have to ask the woman if she considers her life a tragedy. You certainly can't answer that question for her.




I asked you what you thought.  I would further ask if you think that the people of autistic freakshows are glad that they found meaning in their life by being forced to provide far more for their children than they ever expected to have to.  Let me simplify this so even an opt out can understand.  Do you think any parent of an autistic child is glad that their child is autistic?
Quote:



Your position in this discussion is based on calling me an opt out. :curbyourenthusiasm: You got nothing else. NADA.  What a shocker. :whoa:




I have presented plenty of real life truth.  You present Hollywood and books about exceptions and expect us to believe that they are the norm.  Ignorant opt out is ignorant.  You have a lot of nerve even opening your piehole about anything related to parenting and every time you do I will be sure to point out your perspective is completely non-participant.


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InvisibleMidnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999667 - 03/23/13 02:55 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you think any parent of an autistic child is glad that their child is autistic?



I think most of them love their children for who they are and if asked, would not change them.  My cousin's young child is autistic and she loves him to death.

Quote:

You present Hollywood and books about exceptions and expect us to believe that they are the norm.



Nobody has said the success stories are the norm.  I agreed with you fully that most cases are sad, but you can't ignore the cases that aren't and the autistic people who go above and beyond what was ever expected of them or any other person on this planet.  I don't see why you can't accept the possibility of autism being a case of nature getting it wrong until it finally gets it right.  I accept the possibility that it isn't.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999703 - 03/23/13 03:05 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Prove they are personal friends of yours.  You won't because you can't. Not that that helps in any way your claims to expertise.

You use opt out like a little bully calling names.  What a clown act. The last refuge of the impotent.

And I told you what I thought. I think she would not call her experience a tragedy.  So what? Opinions are worth squat.

No I don't think anyone who has a difficult challenge is glad for it. Doesn't mean every who has problems no matter what calls that a tragedy. 

You have presented no real life anything. You refuse to show any evidence of your name dropping. It's all a smoke screen.

How about this. Not saying I can but what if I can get Hue to post and tell you if his life is a tragedy or not or if he considers his childhood a tragedy that has ruined his life and that of his parents.  Would that be enough to get you to stfu about things you know nothing about?  He's the real deal.  I'm willing to provide the evidence if I can.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17999714 - 03/23/13 03:08 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Midnight_Toker said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you think any parent of an autistic child is glad that their child is autistic?



I think most of them love their children for who they are and if asked, would not change them.  My cousin's young child is autistic and she loves him to death.




That wasn't the question but I can assure you that every single parent of an autistic child that I know is extremely unhappy that their child is so.  The people I know who are actually on the spectrum, if they are self aware enough, aren't happy about it either.  I bet your cousin wishes her kid wasn't autistic.  Ask her.
Quote:



Quote:

You present Hollywood and books about exceptions and expect us to believe that they are the norm.



Nobody has said the success stories are the norm.  I agreed with you fully that most cases are sad, but you can't ignore the cases that aren't and the autistic people who go above and beyond what was ever expected of them or any other person on this planet.  I don't see why you can't accept the possibility of autism being a case of nature getting it wrong until it finally gets it right.  I accept the possibility that it isn't.




Even the cases that you say aren't sad are sad.  I also understand evolution.  There is nothing evolutionarily advantageous and most autistic people do not reproduce.  I only know of one example and the kid is not autistic.  He's a little weird because his parents are but he does not have the affliction.

There is nothing positive or romantic about autism.  It is a fucking nightmare.


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999724 - 03/23/13 03:12 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Aspberger's syndrome can be socially frustrating but I certainly don't think it is a tragedy.  I could think of many worse conditions, such as the elephant man that you mentioned earlier, which are much more tragic.

To the OP, I think autism is caused by a combination of genetics and environment.  I think the mercury filled vaccines, food additives such as MSG and aspartame, and all the toxic chemicals we are exposed to are causing autism to express itself more in these modern times.  Do you think that is a positive thing because there's a few savants in the mix?

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InvisibleMidnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999725 - 03/23/13 03:12 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

I'm sure that she never wanted an autistic child before she had one, but she's happy with the son she ended up with.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Icelander]
    #17999731 - 03/23/13 03:14 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Prove they are personal friends of yours.  You won't because you can't. Not that that helps in any way your claims to expertise.




How would you like me to prove that?  What expertise am I claiming?  You are a joke
Quote:



You use opt out like a little bully calling names.  What a clown act. The last refuge of the impotent.




Why do you take offense at me calling you an opt out when you have taken pride in it? 
Quote:



And I told you what I thought. I think she would not call her experience a tragedy.  So what? Opinions are worth squat.




Especially those of an opt out who has never had children.  What do you care about, anyway?
Quote:



No I don't think anyone who has a difficult challenge is glad for it. Doesn't mean every who has problems no matter what calls that a tragedy.




Some challenges are less than others.  Opt outs will never know.
Quote:

 

You have presented no real life anything. You refuse to show any evidence of your name dropping. It's all a smoke screen.




How would you like me to prove this?
Quote:



How about this. Not saying I can but what if I can get Hue to post and tell you if his life is a tragedy or not or if he considers his childhood a tragedy that has ruined his life and that of his parents.  Would that be enough to get you to stfu about things you know nothing about?  He's the real deal.  I'm willing to provide the evidence if I can.




No.  There are millions of kids with autism in this country.  Hue is not relevant to Dashell or any other spectrum freak


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InvisibleMidnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: HippieChick8]
    #17999732 - 03/23/13 03:15 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

No..  I never said it was generally a positive affliction..  But for the savants it can be very advantageous and have massive positives.  Regular old low functioning autistic people?  No, there is really not much good that can come of being born the way they are.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: HippieChick8]
    #17999742 - 03/23/13 03:17 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Aspberger's syndrome can be socially frustrating but I certainly don't think it is a tragedy.  I could think of many worse conditions, such as the elephant man that you mentioned earlier, which are much more tragic.




Asperger's isn't that bad but I know people with it and it is still extremely difficult.  We live in a social world and it is a huge handicap for them not to be able to read other people's affect.
Quote:





To the OP, I think autism is caused by a combination of genetics and environment.  I think the mercury filled vaccines, food additives such as MSG and aspartame, and all the toxic chemicals we are exposed to are causing autism to express itself more in these modern times.  Do you think that is a positive thing because there's a few savants in the mix?




The environmental things you mention had nothing to do with it.  This has been well established.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17999747 - 03/23/13 03:18 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Midnight_Toker said:
I'm sure that she never wanted an autistic child before she had one, but she's happy with the son she ended up with.



He's her son.  She will love him (not all do, by the way.  Some run away).  But I am quite sure that she would be a lot happier if he wasn't.


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InvisibleMidnight_Toker
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999755 - 03/23/13 03:19 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Her life would be different but that doesn't mean she would be happier.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Autism and Evolution [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17999756 - 03/23/13 03:20 PM (11 years, 8 days ago)

Bring them in to this to validate your claims. If they are your personal friends it should be very easy indeed. Or at least ask.

You claimed all these cases are tragedies. Hue is one of them.  I'm not surprised at all you don't want to hear from the real deal.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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