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Offlinemegaman3
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Liberty Cap question
    #1793029 - 08/08/03 07:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sup? I was reading a mushroom guide at my local library, and it said that liberty caps (semilanceata) grow mostly in pastures, but that they can also be found in grassy areas with rich soils at the outside borders of forests (apparently it's more humid and slightly cooler there), as well as occasionally in rich grassy areas inside the forest itself.

Is this inaccurate? Is it absolutely impossible for them to grow in or around the woods, if those areas contain rich wild grasses? Am I correct to assume that semilanceata is not a dung mushroom, even though it grows predominantly in pastures, and that it is a wild grasses mushroom instead that prefers rich soil? Is it the wild grasses or the dung that makes it prefer pastures? If it doesn't grow directly from dung, but the dung creates a rich soil, then isn't it possible that it could grow in rich forest soil where wild grasses are found?

I went camping recently, in the woods, and I was able to find a LOT of mushrooms, even though I have not been able to find any on lawns or trees in the city this spring. I was about to give up on hunting until the fall, but after seeing how conducive the forest is to mushroom growth, even in the spring, I am encouraged. This leads me to postulate that the soil in forests is richer, and that this combined with the fact that forests are shadier supports many mushroom species. So if the soil is rich there, and there are some wild grasses sometimes, could semilanceata possibly grow there?

If it's not possible, I would like to know why. Does it absolutely require dung? What about forests would prevent semilanceata from being able to grow in its wild grasses?

The picture on page 23 of Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World shows an interesting picture of liberty caps growing on an island ecosystem consisting of a tuft of grass among inhospitable gravely soil. This leads me to believe that this was not in the middle of a cow pasture. What do you guys think of this?

Thanks.


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1793055 - 08/08/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

P. semilanceata is most commonly agreed uppon to grw in a sybiotic ascociation with particular types of grasses.
the mycelium encases the roots of the grass and steals nutrients, i'm not sure what the benifit to the grass is but it may be that the mycelium helps to break down certain organic nutrients that the grass could otherwise not make use of.


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Offlinemegaman3
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: canid]
    #1793068 - 08/08/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Oh ok concretefeet. Well then, why does it prefer pastures grazed by sheep and cows if it's not to grow from their dung? Am I correct in assuming that all it needs is the right types of grass, rich soil, and the correct moisture/temperature etc? If a supportive type of grass could be found in or around a forest where rich soil is found, is it not possible that semilanceata could grow there?

That picture in Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World intrigues me greatly. I would love to know in what kind of environment it was found. I doubt that it's in a pasture, since it's surrounded by gravel. It was found in Italy.


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1793128 - 08/08/03 07:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

it tends to prefer pastures due to the fact that the grasses it favors are the same as those that livestock eat, hence: those that grow abundantly in pastures.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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Offlinefloridaboi101
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: canid]
    #1793662 - 08/08/03 09:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have seen many many many Liberty Caps here in Fl and actually most of them seem to grow right outta the poo some near swampy areas and around St Augustine and bahia grasses...which are highly use for grazing :grin:


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: floridaboi101]
    #1793673 - 08/08/03 09:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You haven't seen any liberty caps in Florida. They don't grow there.


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1793680 - 08/08/03 09:51 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

In my experiance it can grow in any grass that is grazed, be it by deer, cows, sheep, rabbits or whatever. It can also grow in grass that has been fertilised with slurry, or liquid manure.

So it is a pretty versitle shroom.

I do find that open hills and sheep grazed highlands are the best, easyest places to find them though.

Good luck, get out hunting after the rains :-)


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: Paid]
    #1793685 - 08/08/03 09:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So, concretefeet your of the symbiotic grass relationship
school of thought? Could you tell me a little more on
that please :-)

My own thoughts are sorta that it likes well decomposted dung,
but these are just from observations of mine.


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Offlinemegaman3
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1798289 - 08/10/03 03:54 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So again, does anyone have any ideas as to where the picture of semilanceata was taken, where they are growing in a tuft of grass in a place surrounded by gravel? Could it be a pasture?

And have liberty caps ever been found in or around a forest, along roadsides in rural areas, and other non-pasture and non-private places?

Thanks!


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InvisibleSpiritus
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1806698 - 08/12/03 07:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

bump, i am interested in an awnser to this


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: Spiritus]
    #1806800 - 08/12/03 07:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Recent ecological studies have shown that Psilocybe semilanceata mycelium does not form symbiotic mutualisms with grass roots; rather, hyphae invade and consume already dying root cortices in a nutritional strategy edging towards parasitism.
This behaviour may explain some of the difficulties encountered in the artificial culture of liberty caps, as well as their habitat preferences. They enjoy dung-enriched soils of various concentrations but also have clear adaptations for exploiting grass root systems.


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Offlinemegaman3
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: pluteus]
    #1807574 - 08/12/03 11:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That's interesting Pluteus. Do you have links to any semilanceata studies? I can't read enough about this fascinating species :-) Even re-reading stuff I already read fascinates me.

So then if that is true about the dying grass, would that mean that you're more likely to find semilanceata in browner grass rather than very rich dark green grass?


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InvisibleSpiritus
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1807821 - 08/13/03 12:30 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Exellent, pluteus.


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: Spiritus]
    #1807848 - 08/13/03 12:41 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What type of grass does it prefer?


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1808364 - 08/13/03 05:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think n e 1 knows... :frown:


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: Ego Death]
    #1808491 - 08/13/03 08:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Keay, S. M. and A. E. Brown (1990). Colonization by Psilocybe semilanceata of roots of grassland flora. Mycological Research 94(1): 49-56

sorry, no link, you'll have to refer to the original journal article or search around

This article begins to address the issue of grass species preference.

I don't know about your brown grass theory, megaman. Grasses are constantly sloughing off portions of their root systems as they grow, so P. semilanceata colonization is not correlated with plant death. The digestion of a dying root by P. semilanceata would release nutrients into the soil that could then promote the growth of surrounding grasses or even a different region of the same root system.

There are some other more recent papers, I will look them up sometime.


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Offlinemegaman3
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: pluteus]
    #1809985 - 08/13/03 05:16 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for your post Pluteus! Do you know if it's possible to subscribe to that journal? Where did you find the article, in the library?

And I see your point about the dying grass thing. Come to think of it, many of the pics I have seen of semilanceata has shown green grass.


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: megaman3]
    #1810723 - 08/13/03 07:58 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hmm... I think they will do individual subscriptions, but it might cost you a lot... I get mine almost free as I am a member of the British Mycological Society (the organization behind the journal). It's published by Cambridge University Press. http://uk.cambridge.org/
Most science colleges and universities will have a subscription and archives.

But thinking about it, that journal is not really that useful for mushroom fanatics as its articles cover all of the fungi kingdom and are always highly technical and thus very hard to follow (not to mention boring) if you aren't a professional mycologist. Experiments in yeast genetics, molecular studies of population dynamics in moulds, fungal enzyme chemistry, that sort of thing.

Fortunately, the British Mycological Society publish two other journals: 'The Mycologist' and 'Field Mycology' which are far less technical. Field Mycology is just a fantastic, fantastic journal for mushroom lovers - lavishly illustrated, and containing highly useful info like identification secrets, mushroom lore, recent rare or new discoveries, news of mycologists and conventions, etc. You might even see something by me in there ;o)

I guess the only drawback is that it focuses on UK mushrooms more than american ones, but then the UK and american mushroom flora have a lot in common.

http://titles.cambridge.org/journals/journal_catalogue.asp?historylinks=SUBJ&mnemonic=FMY



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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: pluteus]
    #1810896 - 08/13/03 08:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

There is a c ompanion article to t he first one by Keay. I have both in my files however I will not be home until later fall.

Sorry. I will post at Nan's Nook the pages.

I still believe that they are attached to living grasses (through the mycellia) as i have collected them for more than thirty years and these authors, as noted above, are very technical in their writing and boring and I relally do not agree with their findings and a few others such as Gartz, Stijve and Watling also disagree on this. YEt as also noted above, cultivation of the liberty cap is a problem because of the amounts needed for dosages so it is of little interest to many for cultivation and becaue Cubes are the number one cultivated entheogenic shroom and the easiest to handle.

mj

Still a good post on the subject.

mj

If the grass is green above the ground how can the roots be dead.

mj And yes they grow in dry srttraw-colored grasses as well.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (08/13/03 09:02 PM)


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: Liberty Cap question [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1812558 - 08/14/03 07:17 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hey MJ
These papers don't contradict that P. semilanceata is attached to living grasses. All they say is that the bits of root they are attached to are 'moribund' (beginning to die off anyway). Microscopic examination showed that while hyphae invaded apparently intact root systems, the individual cells being consumed were already dead. Thus liberties can still be attached to healthy grasses without being anything but saprotrophic. If you read my original post, you will see I refer to 'portions' of the root system being dead, not the root system itself, and also explain how this is a normal feature of grass root systems. As grasses grow, they shed little bits of root. Simple as that.

I have always regarded Psilocybe as an entirely saprotrophic genus with no transitions to mycorrhizal symbiosis or parasitism. It would be very interesting to find evidence to the contrary. There are now very secure experimental methods (using radiolabelled nutrients/molecular markers) to demonstrate if a plant/fungus interaction is mycorrhizal in nature, so the situation should become more clear in time.

I totally agree with liberty cap cultivation being pointless apart perhaps from the challenge/novelty value.



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